Discussion
CheesecakeRunner said:
For those who can’t be arsed to watch…. 325 miles at ‘highway speeds’ (they aimed for 70mph, averaged about 60 looking at the shots of the dash) in 22C/73F temperatures, 100% to completely empty. Not too shabby for a tank on massive wheels and wide tyres.
Good news for people who have a deposit down. Bad news for Taycan owners.Cheib said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
For those who can’t be arsed to watch…. 325 miles at ‘highway speeds’ (they aimed for 70mph, averaged about 60 looking at the shots of the dash) in 22C/73F temperatures, 100% to completely empty. Not too shabby for a tank on massive wheels and wide tyres.
Good news for people who have a deposit down. Bad news for Taycan owners.GTS440 said:
Cheib said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
For those who can’t be arsed to watch…. 325 miles at ‘highway speeds’ (they aimed for 70mph, averaged about 60 looking at the shots of the dash) in 22C/73F temperatures, 100% to completely empty. Not too shabby for a tank on massive wheels and wide tyres.
Good news for people who have a deposit down. Bad news for Taycan owners.finmac said:
Apparently they are sticking the same battery pack into the taycan going forward - will mean a big drop on the “old tech” taycan values surely. There seem to lie the other rub with EVs the tech moves fast and leaves the old model very undesireable in comparison.
That's pretty much how I see it. Early adopters seem to try and put people in only two buckets of for and against EVs but it is more complicated than that. The tech is changing very quickly as this demonstrates and many of us will happily go EV when we get a car that is right for us. I live rurally and want a better range and the newer generation cars being announced offers that with more to come I suspect.[quote=Murph7355]
'I'm really not convinced there is even an edge case for someone driving 400 miles non-stop. Or even 400 miles with a "2min" stop. Let alone in a Taycan type vehicle (or an M5, or an S500 or...)!'
I would agree that those instances are rare but they do exist and generally when you least expect it. In recent years I have had to pick-up a family member who became hospitalised in Spain during Covid time, agreeing to meet her doctors at midday the following day. Whilst it was a complex journey, navigating rules through Dover, Calais and into Spain, one thing I didn't worry about was whether my 7 year old Audi SUV would miss a beat.
I was in Calais by around 12:30 pm, and started making my way south, gradually getting quicker after around Le Mans. Given the situation, and that I did not know the route well I needed to stop more frequently than normal, to maintain a minimum two hundred or so mile buffer in the fuel tank and avoid being derailed by any unexpected event. In a BEV my full range would be perhaps 300 miles at moderate speed, and then you are at the mercy of each charging station being operational and free when you arrive. By 10:30pm that evening I was parking the car up in St Sebastien, Spain, to get ready for the next day - I couldn't have done that in a BEV.
More recently I have driven from London to Edinburgh a few times and generally prefer not to stop for any break more than about 5 mins, unless the OH is with me. For me at least, there is utility in knowing I can cover five or six hundred miles in a single run, and refuelling will almost certainly be available, and generally takes no more than 10 minutes. BEVs have come a long long way, and they will continue to innovate, I'm sure, but they are not the panacea that replaces ICE - for my money, that may eventually be Hydrogen and resynthesised efuels.
Funnily enough, I ordered for a Taycan Turbo in 2019. I had agreed a delivery deadline of end Apr 2020, and my OPC (East London) were very understanding actually committing to delivering by that date or I could walk away. Then Covid happened, the car arrived late and I wasn't as enamoured with it as I had anticipated. I exercised the walkaway option, and ended up buying a new BGTS which has been a great driving experience (if somewhat meh ownership experience). The ideal scenario would be that these two cars with routine care will take me through 2035, which feels like a reasonable choice environmentally too.
'I'm really not convinced there is even an edge case for someone driving 400 miles non-stop. Or even 400 miles with a "2min" stop. Let alone in a Taycan type vehicle (or an M5, or an S500 or...)!'
I would agree that those instances are rare but they do exist and generally when you least expect it. In recent years I have had to pick-up a family member who became hospitalised in Spain during Covid time, agreeing to meet her doctors at midday the following day. Whilst it was a complex journey, navigating rules through Dover, Calais and into Spain, one thing I didn't worry about was whether my 7 year old Audi SUV would miss a beat.
I was in Calais by around 12:30 pm, and started making my way south, gradually getting quicker after around Le Mans. Given the situation, and that I did not know the route well I needed to stop more frequently than normal, to maintain a minimum two hundred or so mile buffer in the fuel tank and avoid being derailed by any unexpected event. In a BEV my full range would be perhaps 300 miles at moderate speed, and then you are at the mercy of each charging station being operational and free when you arrive. By 10:30pm that evening I was parking the car up in St Sebastien, Spain, to get ready for the next day - I couldn't have done that in a BEV.
More recently I have driven from London to Edinburgh a few times and generally prefer not to stop for any break more than about 5 mins, unless the OH is with me. For me at least, there is utility in knowing I can cover five or six hundred miles in a single run, and refuelling will almost certainly be available, and generally takes no more than 10 minutes. BEVs have come a long long way, and they will continue to innovate, I'm sure, but they are not the panacea that replaces ICE - for my money, that may eventually be Hydrogen and resynthesised efuels.
Funnily enough, I ordered for a Taycan Turbo in 2019. I had agreed a delivery deadline of end Apr 2020, and my OPC (East London) were very understanding actually committing to delivering by that date or I could walk away. Then Covid happened, the car arrived late and I wasn't as enamoured with it as I had anticipated. I exercised the walkaway option, and ended up buying a new BGTS which has been a great driving experience (if somewhat meh ownership experience). The ideal scenario would be that these two cars with routine care will take me through 2035, which feels like a reasonable choice environmentally too.
EC2 said:
That's pretty much how I see it. Early adopters seem to try and put people in only two buckets of for and against EVs but it is more complicated than that. The tech is changing very quickly as this demonstrates and many of us will happily go EV when we get a car that is right for us. I live rurally and want a better range and the newer generation cars being announced offers that with more to come I suspect.
I haven't looked at the details of the tech in the Macans, but from what I have seen the big difference is a 10% increase in battery capacity (maybe more depending on whether 100kWh is usable or notional). I suspect the software has been updated to suit the use case for the Macan too. The parallel with ICE would be an engine that is more fuel efficient and/or a bigger fuel tank being squeezed in. The tech itself is not really different
It'll be interesting to see if the new Taycan battery would fit the old Taycan.
Buying a car that suits one's needs is always key. Things are never binary. And a car doesn't become redundant overnight just because a new version is available. If it still suits your needs, it suits your needs
I also live rurally. I'm a died in the wool car nut. The biggest single argument against EVs is if you do not have the ability to charge at home. The vast majority of other arguments don't stand logical assessment. But we're often not a logical species. If we were, there's no feckin way I'd have a Griffith 500 in the garage, or would have bought a few of the cars I have over time
Murph7355 said:
EC2 said:
That's pretty much how I see it. Early adopters seem to try and put people in only two buckets of for and against EVs but it is more complicated than that. The tech is changing very quickly as this demonstrates and many of us will happily go EV when we get a car that is right for us. I live rurally and want a better range and the newer generation cars being announced offers that with more to come I suspect.
I haven't looked at the details of the tech in the Macans, but from what I have seen the big difference is a 10% increase in battery capacity (maybe more depending on whether 100kWh is usable or notional). I suspect the software has been updated to suit the use case for the Macan too. The parallel with ICE would be an engine that is more fuel efficient and/or a bigger fuel tank being squeezed in. The tech itself is not really different
It'll be interesting to see if the new Taycan battery would fit the old Taycan.
Buying a car that suits one's needs is always key. Things are never binary. And a car doesn't become redundant overnight just because a new version is available. If it still suits your needs, it suits your needs
I also live rurally. I'm a died in the wool car nut. The biggest single argument against EVs is if you do not have the ability to charge at home. The vast majority of other arguments don't stand logical assessment. But we're often not a logical species. If we were, there's no feckin way I'd have a Griffith 500 in the garage, or would have bought a few of the cars I have over time
EC2 said:
Indeed, my Maserati is hardly efficient by modern definitions just like a TVR. I've got three phase electricity so will have an EV at some stage, trouble is the next car that needs changing is the one I often run up and down to southern England in. Most of these threads will be redundant in half a decade or so as all we are talking about for most of us is timing for the switch.
But what of alternative ICE fuels? Bio-fuel, air/water fuel, ammonia, direct hydrogen?The EV charging infrastructure will be an issue for many and I see EVs mostly dying out by the end of the decade in favour of zero/net zero ICE fuels. Sure, electricity will be required for these in vast (renewable) amounts but at least the fuel produced can be transported to a service station, as now.
DJMC said:
But what of alternative ICE fuels? Bio-fuel, air/water fuel, ammonia, direct hydrogen?
The EV charging infrastructure will be an issue for many and I see EVs mostly dying out by the end of the decade in favour of zero/net zero ICE fuels. Sure, electricity will be required for these in vast (renewable) amounts but at least the fuel produced can be transported to a service station, as now.
I don't see that happening for the reason you state - why push loads of electricity into making a fuel to then power a car, when electricity can power a car very well itself?The EV charging infrastructure will be an issue for many and I see EVs mostly dying out by the end of the decade in favour of zero/net zero ICE fuels. Sure, electricity will be required for these in vast (renewable) amounts but at least the fuel produced can be transported to a service station, as now.
Charging infrastructure is improving rapidly now. Granted I don't use it that often/variedly at present. But have never had an issue and always been able to get onto rapid chargers. I've not yet seen a station even close to full.
The biggest single issue, IMO, is charging at home for people in flats/old school terraces etc. Though putting outlets on the street and into parking lots is not beyond us....just a question of who pays.
Alternative fuels have more chance of becoming adopted in haulage, for vehicles that need to tow etc. Though I don't see petrol or diesel dying out for quite some time, so can be used for those use cases without the need for something new.
Murph7355 said:
Charging infrastructure is improving rapidly now. Granted I don't use it that often/variedly at present. But have never had an issue and always been able to get onto rapid chargers. I've not yet seen a station even close to full.
I had a Taycan loan car about a month before Xmas. Went to two fast charging places in Milton Keynes….both were full, one was an IONITY one, can’t remember the other.We’ve got a deposit down for the Macan EV, hopefully having three phase installed this summer along with a fairly big solar system/battery. Hope to be able to run the Macan on PV generated electricity in the summer.
Cheib said:
Murph7355 said:
Charging infrastructure is improving rapidly now. Granted I don't use it that often/variedly at present. But have never had an issue and always been able to get onto rapid chargers. I've not yet seen a station even close to full.
I had a Taycan loan car about a month before Xmas. Went to two fast charging places in Milton Keynes….both were full, one was an IONITY one, can’t remember the other.We’ve got a deposit down for the Macan EV, hopefully having three phase installed this summer along with a fairly big solar system/battery. Hope to be able to run the Macan on PV generated electricity in the summer.
The planner shows little icons for chargers en route that show how many outlets there are and how many are in use.
Home PV array sounds like a very handy way to charge up and get the array to pay for itself. Keep contemplating putting one on the roof of our open barn...
I skimmed the video towards the end and he mentions 306wH per mile as the consumption. Which is a strange measurement but converted to the EU kWh per 100km it’s 18kWh per 100km. Which is very efficient. Nearly Tesla efficient. That’s why the range is so good. I’m sure ditching the gearbox will have helped but they have surely found or bought in other improvements. I would guesstimate it’s using somewhere around a third or a quarter less electrons vs a Taycan. To my eyes also a much better looking car but let’s see it without the camouflage.
Murph7355 said:
Cheib said:
Murph7355 said:
Charging infrastructure is improving rapidly now. Granted I don't use it that often/variedly at present. But have never had an issue and always been able to get onto rapid chargers. I've not yet seen a station even close to full.
I had a Taycan loan car about a month before Xmas. Went to two fast charging places in Milton Keynes….both were full, one was an IONITY one, can’t remember the other.We’ve got a deposit down for the Macan EV, hopefully having three phase installed this summer along with a fairly big solar system/battery. Hope to be able to run the Macan on PV generated electricity in the summer.
The planner shows little icons for chargers en route that show how many outlets there are and how many are in use.
Home PV array sounds like a very handy way to charge up and get the array to pay for itself. Keep contemplating putting one on the roof of our open barn...
All in all the charging took about 75 minutes.
Our PV will be ground mounted I hope, we’re lucky that we have the space.
DMZ said:
I skimmed the video towards the end and he mentions 306wH per mile as the consumption. Which is a strange measurement but converted to the EU kWh per 100km it’s 18kWh per 100km. Which is very efficient. Nearly Tesla efficient. That’s why the range is so good. I’m sure ditching the gearbox will have helped but they have surely found or bought in other improvements. I would guesstimate it’s using somewhere around a third or a quarter less electrons vs a Taycan....
Range is very dependent on a lot of factors....I haven't had mine in warm conditions (22degC temps) yet, so not sure what will be possible. If I wanted to risk going down to 0% I reckon I can get 200 in current, 2degC temps. Others on the Taycan forum have noted 260++ miles in warmer temps for a "milder" spec of car.If we accept that range for the moment, I reckon that makes 20kWh per 100km. Bearing in mind the usable capacity of a Taycan with the bigger battery is just 84kWh (nominal 94kWh).
The usable capacity of the Macan EV, from one Google'd source I've found is alleged to be "96-98kWh" from a nominal 100kWh.
That's a 15% increase in usable capacity IF that Google'd figure is correct (and IF we believe people are able to get 260 mile out of a Taycan). Which on its own would see the current Taycan platform in the same ball park range wise.
I would have thought Porsche could change the "reserve" capacity easily IF their data is suggesting they don't need as big a buffer (over 11% on the Taycan).
Dropping the gearbox and improvements in the software (either to suit the Macan's purpose and/or because they are getting better at it) and it's not hard to see where gains could be squeezed.
Murph7355 said:
Range is very dependent on a lot of factors....I haven't had mine in warm conditions (22degC temps) yet, so not sure what will be possible. If I wanted to risk going down to 0% I reckon I can get 200 in current, 2degC temps. Others on the Taycan forum have noted 260++ miles in warmer temps for a "milder" spec of car.
If we accept that range for the moment, I reckon that makes 20kWh per 100km. Bearing in mind the usable capacity of a Taycan with the bigger battery is just 84kWh (nominal 94kWh).
The usable capacity of the Macan EV, from one Google'd source I've found is alleged to be "96-98kWh" from a nominal 100kWh.
That's a 15% increase in usable capacity IF that Google'd figure is correct (and IF we believe people are able to get 260 mile out of a Taycan). Which on its own would see the current Taycan platform in the same ball park range wise.
I would have thought Porsche could change the "reserve" capacity easily IF their data is suggesting they don't need as big a buffer (over 11% on the Taycan).
Dropping the gearbox and improvements in the software (either to suit the Macan's purpose and/or because they are getting better at it) and it's not hard to see where gains could be squeezed.
No harm in a big reserve I think. Much less lithium stress. If we accept that range for the moment, I reckon that makes 20kWh per 100km. Bearing in mind the usable capacity of a Taycan with the bigger battery is just 84kWh (nominal 94kWh).
The usable capacity of the Macan EV, from one Google'd source I've found is alleged to be "96-98kWh" from a nominal 100kWh.
That's a 15% increase in usable capacity IF that Google'd figure is correct (and IF we believe people are able to get 260 mile out of a Taycan). Which on its own would see the current Taycan platform in the same ball park range wise.
I would have thought Porsche could change the "reserve" capacity easily IF their data is suggesting they don't need as big a buffer (over 11% on the Taycan).
Dropping the gearbox and improvements in the software (either to suit the Macan's purpose and/or because they are getting better at it) and it's not hard to see where gains could be squeezed.
I can’t say I stress all that much about range anyhow. If it’s a bit better in the Macan then great. I tend to find everything ends up around 200-ish miles if you drive at a decent pace no matter what the manufacturer says.
gtsralph said:
If we take away tax breaks and incentives Hyrbid makes the most sense to the majority I would imagine?If a Hybrid that did 70 miles on a single charge and had the same tax breaks and incentives as an EV then I think we would see a natural move to "cleaner burning" cars.
I do 30,000 miles a year and yet 22k of those miles, at least, could be done in EV mode if the car did 70 miles on a charge. (I use 70 miles as that is the hybrid range the government use for the best tax breaks on them, or 69 miles, I think it is).
You would find that people would be happier to buy them, love the fact they could charge at home every night easily and cheaply and it would become natural to drive around town and short journeys in ev mode. Why would you burn fuel and money when you could be in electric mode cheaply.
I worry that chasing pure EV will be EVs downfall, pushed too hard before the infrastructure, rather than the tech, was ready.
Most people don't care about whether it is green or not, if they are 100% honest, they care whether it is cheaper and whether it is easy.
You can tell because the same people who are buying EVs that I know are the same people that fly every year, often multiple times, the same people who are happy to buy crap that is shipped all over the world, even buying food that is shipped all over the world rather than using local butchers or farm shops.
We do that because it is cheaper or easier, or both.
Until planes are grounded, until merchant vessels are told no more, then we have to stop pretending this is to be green, it make sod all difference in the bigger picture. The world is not green, very, very few people are green either, most just like to convince themselves they are.
I include myself in that by the way, I am guilty of all the above, before anyone gets defensive.
No, if we really wanted to be green, we could be, but that is the last thing governments and asset funds want.
But hybrid tech could have got more people into EV cars and less pollutants being pumped out in our cities.
If we suddenly saw the same tax breaks and incentives for Hyrbrids that do 70 miles on a charge as we do full EVs I bet the uptake would be huge and we would all have cleaner cities.
My daily is a Cayenne S Diesel….if I could buy a Hybrid that did a reliable 70 miles on battery that would get me interested. I do about 20k miles a year including driving to Europe (ski holidays etc)….on a 12 hour close to 700 mile journey to Switzerland an EV just isn’t the right car. Macan EV is for SWMBO.
Cheib said:
My daily is a Cayenne S Diesel….if I could buy a Hybrid that did a reliable 70 miles on battery that would get me interested. I do about 20k miles a year including driving to Europe (ski holidays etc)….on a 12 hour close to 700 mile journey to Switzerland an EV just isn’t the right car. Macan EV is for SWMBO.
Also daily a Cayenne S Diesel and I’ll be in that Hybrid queue behind you. Anyone else noticed EVs being driven at around 60-63 range extending on motorways now that the weather is cooler?
Cheib said:
My daily is a Cayenne S Diesel….if I could buy a Hybrid that did a reliable 70 miles on battery that would get me interested. I do about 20k miles a year including driving to Europe (ski holidays etc)….on a 12 hour close to 700 mile journey to Switzerland an EV just isn’t the right car. Macan EV is for SWMBO.
As a serial Cayenne Diesel owner, i switched to the new 2024 Cayenne E-Hybrid in November. The car is great with 40-44 miles real electric range at current temperatures. In the 2000 miles i've covered over 50% have been electric. If that range increased to say 60-70 miles in a future version i expect that 75-80% of my mileage would be electric.The other good thing is that it only take 3.5 hours to charge on my standard 7kW charger so some days i can cover 80 miles electric by starting the day fully charged and then charging at some point during the day and driving again. It just works for my driving habits. I like the Macan-E and its extended range but i'm not not sure i want one as i have (almost) the best of both worlds in the Cayenne E-Hybrid.
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