Discussion
Fair Parking said:
However, there is yet another prime requirement for shows to work and that is - people make their own shows. Enthusiam and commitment equates to success whilst apathy and petty criticism kills them.
Whilst this is undoubtedly true, coming from a show organiser makes it sounds like you're saying 'you, the public and manufacturers get the show you deserve'.Shows like Stoneleigh and Newark were once extremely well attended by both manufacturers and public.
Something happened to make people apathetic. Now let me be very clear that I am NOT necessarily saying that the 'something' was poor management/lack of vision on the part of the organisers (as I and several others have said already, maybe it's just that the world has irrevocably moved on), but before you criticise manufacturers and the public, consider the obvious response:
It's your job as show organiser to give us something worth getting excited about, then maybe we won't be apathetic.
I'll be very clear: the 'something' that I would need to get excited about (well, excited enough to bother start attending shows again on a regular basis) would be simple enough: a large enough showing by manufacturers to come close to being representative of the full scope and breadth of the industry, not just a handful of 'old faithfuls', show after show, year after year.
You can't offer a crap product that doesn't meet people's needs, then b
h that it failed because your potential customer base was apathetic and critical about it...Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 16th October 07:13
This thread was about the Stafford Show and not how shows in general should be run. The question I asked was in relation to why this show ever went ahead when it never had any content. No content - no show. Its not as if this crept up on the organisers as all shows start with an empty hall.
Stafford 2011 was the show that never was and yet people were being asked to pay to enter. It lowered the integrity and professionalism of organisers in general and yet there was no attempt to answer the points. I would have liked to have seen answers rather than a blank masquerading as cartoons that attempted to deflect criticism away from the source of the problem. Hence the short expression which clearly some misread.
Dennis Tanner asked for ideas and never responded to any of the ones I posted and nor did ever approach me for any advice which I would gladly have given. He also stated that he wanted to know what the problem was even if he was the problem. He was given his answer honestly and sincerely and clearly he didn't like it. In which case sir, do not ask questions that you do not want an answer to. If only I could find an alternative I would have given it to you, but I have not been able to find one redeeming feature for this year's event. It should never have gone ahead.
I remember Mr Tanner openly criticising the integrity and professionalism of the former organisers when their last show at Stafford in 2006 attracted just 8 manufacturers. I felt that they had tried their best but the show had run out of steam and to their credit several of their previous shows had been successful.
If people think that Mr Tanner's use of a provocative gesture at the organisers of another show unconnected with Stafford and a childish challenge via the use of those emocations (or whatever these subsitutes for the English language are called) is the way forward rather than seeking an answer from the person who could have prevented this disaster from being exposed to the public then I am indeed out of touch with modern thinking.
The issue of why Stafford failed has been side stepped.
Stafford 2011 was the show that never was and yet people were being asked to pay to enter. It lowered the integrity and professionalism of organisers in general and yet there was no attempt to answer the points. I would have liked to have seen answers rather than a blank masquerading as cartoons that attempted to deflect criticism away from the source of the problem. Hence the short expression which clearly some misread.
Dennis Tanner asked for ideas and never responded to any of the ones I posted and nor did ever approach me for any advice which I would gladly have given. He also stated that he wanted to know what the problem was even if he was the problem. He was given his answer honestly and sincerely and clearly he didn't like it. In which case sir, do not ask questions that you do not want an answer to. If only I could find an alternative I would have given it to you, but I have not been able to find one redeeming feature for this year's event. It should never have gone ahead.
I remember Mr Tanner openly criticising the integrity and professionalism of the former organisers when their last show at Stafford in 2006 attracted just 8 manufacturers. I felt that they had tried their best but the show had run out of steam and to their credit several of their previous shows had been successful.
If people think that Mr Tanner's use of a provocative gesture at the organisers of another show unconnected with Stafford and a childish challenge via the use of those emocations (or whatever these subsitutes for the English language are called) is the way forward rather than seeking an answer from the person who could have prevented this disaster from being exposed to the public then I am indeed out of touch with modern thinking.
The issue of why Stafford failed has been side stepped.
Edited by Fair Parking on Monday 17th October 15:05
Edited by Fair Parking on Monday 17th October 15:09
Fair Parking said:
This thread was about the Stafford Show and not how shows in general should be run. The question I asked was in relation to why this show ever went ahead when it never had any content. No content - no show. Its not as if this crept up on the organisers as all shows start with an empty hall.
Stafford 2011 was the show that never was and yet people were being asked to pay to enter. Hence the short expression.
Dennis Tanner asked for ideas and never responded to any of ones I posted and he also stated that he wanted to know what the problem was even if he was the problem. He was given his answer honestly and sincerely and clearly he didn't like it. In which case sir, do not ask questions that you do not want an answer to. If only I could find an alternative I would have given it to you, but I have not been able to find one redeeming feature for this year's event. It should never have gone ahead.
I remember Mr Tanner openly criticising the integrity and professionalism of the former organisers when their last show at Stafford in 2006 reached attracted just 8 manufacturers. I felt that they had tried their best but the show had run out of steam and to their credit several of their previous shows had been successful.
If people think that Mr Tanner's use of a provocative gesture at the organisers of another show unconnected with Stafford and a childish challenge via the use of those emocations (or whatever these subsitutes for the English language are called) is the way forward rather than seeking an answer from the person who could have prevented this disaster from being exposed to the public then I am indeed out of touch with modern thinking.
The issue of why Stafford failed has been side stepped.
To be fair, I agree with this, hence wanting to keep the thread on track. Stafford 2011 was the show that never was and yet people were being asked to pay to enter. Hence the short expression.
Dennis Tanner asked for ideas and never responded to any of ones I posted and he also stated that he wanted to know what the problem was even if he was the problem. He was given his answer honestly and sincerely and clearly he didn't like it. In which case sir, do not ask questions that you do not want an answer to. If only I could find an alternative I would have given it to you, but I have not been able to find one redeeming feature for this year's event. It should never have gone ahead.
I remember Mr Tanner openly criticising the integrity and professionalism of the former organisers when their last show at Stafford in 2006 reached attracted just 8 manufacturers. I felt that they had tried their best but the show had run out of steam and to their credit several of their previous shows had been successful.
If people think that Mr Tanner's use of a provocative gesture at the organisers of another show unconnected with Stafford and a childish challenge via the use of those emocations (or whatever these subsitutes for the English language are called) is the way forward rather than seeking an answer from the person who could have prevented this disaster from being exposed to the public then I am indeed out of touch with modern thinking.
The issue of why Stafford failed has been side stepped.
This was why I am asking for any personal insults or slanging matches (or indeed off-topic discussions) to be held elsewhere.
Fair Parking said:
This thread was about the Stafford Show and not how shows in general should be run. The question I asked was in relation to why this show ever went ahead when it never had any content. No content - no show. Its not as if this crept up on the organisers as all shows start with an empty hall.
Ronnis,For your information, there were 23 manufacturers and 40 parts/accessories stands at this year’s Stafford show.
It wasn’t that bad…… It wasn’t as bad, for example, as your show at the Queens Hall Leeds where you stood out in the main road to ‘direct’ everybody in plastic cars into your hall to turn them into exhibits (I could tell of the guy doing his shopping in his Reliant Robin who had no idea what a kit car show was until you jumped in front of him).
It wasn’t as bad as your last Stafford show either. (I well remember, at its close 15 years ago, you pleading with me to take it off your hands because you couldn’t cope with the “apathy and disinterest” of the trade).
And yes, it had considerably more than the 8 manufacturers you referred to under the management of the person you passed it on to.
Basically Ronnis, there was no question of it being called off. From a public perspective it was £10 worth of show but not commercially viable to reproduce without significant change. That’s why I’ve made clear that I’ll not be repeating it until there is evidence of change.
Den not Dennis
Dennis this isn't about what might or might not have happened in Leeds 26 years ago which did not stop you entering the next 10 Sports & Kit Car Shows (9 at Stafford) which if they had been been as bad as you are now trying to make out they were, you would have stopped supporting rather staying for the whole ride. Nor is it about what happened at Stafford in 1996 which records show 36 manufacturers, 68 trade stands and 63 restoration exhibitors all paid to exhibit at.
It isn't about insults or attempts to deflect attention from yourself and your failings.
It is about your last show.
It isn't about insults or attempts to deflect attention from yourself and your failings.
It is about your last show.
Den
Understood. Your allegation was:-
Fair Parking said:
It is about your last show.
Yes Ronnis,Understood. Your allegation was:-
Fair Parking said:
Stafford 2011 was the show that never was and yet people were being asked to pay to enter.
And I answered:-DEN TANNER said:
Ronnis,
For your information, there were 23 manufacturers and 40 parts/accessories stands at this year’s Stafford show.
It wasn’t that bad……
Basically Ronnis, there was no question of it being called off. From a public perspective it was £10 worth of show….
Den not Dennis
Which bit didn’t you understand apart from this:-For your information, there were 23 manufacturers and 40 parts/accessories stands at this year’s Stafford show.
It wasn’t that bad……
Basically Ronnis, there was no question of it being called off. From a public perspective it was £10 worth of show….
Den not Dennis
DEN TANNER said:
Den not Dennis
Would you like it expressed more simply – with an emoticon, say? Dennis - the name you intoduced yourself to me as - perhaps we can approach this from another angle and one that might just assist people to offer you more suggestions as well as cutting down on your machine gun mud slinging which people have already indicated they do not wish to contend with.
Readers might like to know the following
What industry magazines did you advertise in?
What local papers did you advertise in?
Did you send out local press releases?
Did you think that the suggestion of a media day was a good idea?
Did you organise a media day?
Which local motoring correspondents did you contact?
Were they offered any test drives?
Did you put out forms at any of your four shows enabling visitors to contact manufacturers for test drives?
Do you think that this has any merit?
Exacly what was the sabotage?
Could you be confusing this with lack of confidence in your event?
Was the show's website updated regularly and citing what and who could be seen?
How many clubs were invited and how many responded?
Should you have not followed your instinct and cancelled the event, or did you really believe that it would come good on the day?
I'm not asking you to respond to these with a view to castigating you, but it is an exercise that a show organiser ought to face up to if his last event was less than satisfying.
Readers might like to know the following
What industry magazines did you advertise in?
What local papers did you advertise in?
Did you send out local press releases?
Did you think that the suggestion of a media day was a good idea?
Did you organise a media day?
Which local motoring correspondents did you contact?
Were they offered any test drives?
Did you put out forms at any of your four shows enabling visitors to contact manufacturers for test drives?
Do you think that this has any merit?
Exacly what was the sabotage?
Could you be confusing this with lack of confidence in your event?
Was the show's website updated regularly and citing what and who could be seen?
How many clubs were invited and how many responded?
Should you have not followed your instinct and cancelled the event, or did you really believe that it would come good on the day?
I'm not asking you to respond to these with a view to castigating you, but it is an exercise that a show organiser ought to face up to if his last event was less than satisfying.
Edited by Fair Parking on Monday 17th October 18:01
Fair Parking said:
Dennis - the name you intoduced yourself to me as....
Ron, I haven't been known as Dennis to anybody in the kit car industry. In fact not since school days. The only people who have called me by that name are Peter Filby, Peter Bailey and Sally Mitchell - no doubt to antagonise.So, what's your reason? I see you're bent on continuing!
Fair Parking said:
Exacly what was the sabotage?
I don't know Ron, you're the only person to have used the expression in this thread. Do you know something the rest of us don't?Den
^^^^
Come on guys, let's not resort to petty name calling, that is not going to solve anything, like a marriage it's always better if the parties row in the same direction....
Everybody on this forum hopefully wants the same thing, a healthy thriving kit car industry.
As an aside, yesterday I visited the Classic bike show at Stafford, and the place was heaving....cars in the car parks lined up as far as the eye could see, and I mean thousands....The three large exhibition halls were jam packed inside with exhibitors, as well as ALL the space outside...estimated attendance 30,000 plus over the two days. To be fair, the weather was very kind both days.
An added attraction was a "Wall of death" which seemed to be doing good business.
The point?... Well this proves to me there is actually nothing wrong with Stafford As a venue. People WILL travel.
Come on guys, let's not resort to petty name calling, that is not going to solve anything, like a marriage it's always better if the parties row in the same direction....
Everybody on this forum hopefully wants the same thing, a healthy thriving kit car industry.
As an aside, yesterday I visited the Classic bike show at Stafford, and the place was heaving....cars in the car parks lined up as far as the eye could see, and I mean thousands....The three large exhibition halls were jam packed inside with exhibitors, as well as ALL the space outside...estimated attendance 30,000 plus over the two days. To be fair, the weather was very kind both days.
An added attraction was a "Wall of death" which seemed to be doing good business.
The point?... Well this proves to me there is actually nothing wrong with Stafford As a venue. People WILL travel.
Right.
As I said earlier in the thread, we will not tolerate in-fighting.
To that end I am removing both Den's and Fair Parking's ability to post on this thread for a few days.
I do NOT want to have to close this thread down, as I think it is incredibly interesting and thought-provoking
I hate having to start lashing out with a moderator's stick, but will if I have to.
Back on topic please chaps, and NO pettiness.
To quote Alan Partridge "If you're going to have a fight, go out into the car park!"
As I said earlier in the thread, we will not tolerate in-fighting.
To that end I am removing both Den's and Fair Parking's ability to post on this thread for a few days.
I do NOT want to have to close this thread down, as I think it is incredibly interesting and thought-provoking
I hate having to start lashing out with a moderator's stick, but will if I have to.
Back on topic please chaps, and NO pettiness.
To quote Alan Partridge "If you're going to have a fight, go out into the car park!"
Arthur Jackson said:
Wacky Racer said:
The point?... Well this proves to me there is actually nothing wrong with Stafford As a venue. People WILL travel.
In fairness I'd say the Classic Bike 'scene' is FAR bigger than the kitcar 'scene'. Some photo's from yesterday taken just before 4pm, when it was starting to go quiet and the crowds were thinning out:-
Having posted some of the reason I attend kit car shows, I thought I'd give the other side and state a few reasons I wouldn't go.
Firstly, and the biggest reason of all, is the distance I have to travel. Based on my past experiences of shows in various locations, I wouldn't travel more than 1 to 1-1/2 hours to get to a show. The exception to this is Stoneleigh. I have always felt my trips to Stoneleigh have been worthwhile.
When I lived in Lancashire, in addition to Stoneleigh, I visited shows at Capesthorne, Donington, Stafford and Harrogate.
Capesthorne felt more like a club meeting than a proper show - nothing wrong with that - it was a nice trip out on a Sunday afternoon and wasn't too far for me to go at the time. (About 45 minutes.)
I went to Donington either the first or second year it ran - certainly before they made use of the track - when it was supposed to be the show to rival Stoneleigh. Actually, I really enjoyed this show - I was actively researching my kit selection at the time though. I got to see pretty much everything I wanted to, and got to speak to most of them. It was about two hours each way, but seemed worth it. (Maybe I enjoyed it because it wasn't too busy!!)
My one and only visit to Stafford came later, I guess it was c. 2000 when it was still held in March. This was during the building years and I was after parts, so although there wasn't that much to see, it was a worthwhile visit as it only took about an hour and fifteen to get there and I was able to get some useful bits for the car.
IIRC, I went to Harrogate the same year as Stafford, having also been to Stoneleigh in between. From what I remember, it was of a similar standard to the Stafford show, but I think I'd got everything that I could usefully get from shows that year out of Stafford and Stoneleigh, So I came away from Harrogate rather disappointed, not least from having driven about two hours to get there!
Since I relocated to Reading, I've been to Stoneleigh a couple of times and one year (2007) I went to Donington because I wanted to attend a show and had missed Stoneleigh due to work commitments. I think this was the last time Donington ran and again featured no track action. I drove about 2-1/2 hours to get there and had seen everything the show had to offer in about 25 minutes. I was very disappointed, but had learnt my lesson really. (I must admit, I had nothing else to do that weekend, so wasn't too upset - it gave me something to do at least!)
But this is where my hour and a half rule comes from - in some ways, I'd quite like to go to the Exeter show, but as it's about 2-1/2 hours and my expectation would be a similar level of manufacturer and trade support to the previous Stafford, Harrogate and later Donington shows that I've attended, I just don't think it would be worth the drive.
My only other major gripe with shows generally is when exhibitors (manufacturers or other traders) are publicised as confirmed for the event, whether in adverts, press previews or even in show guides, and they don't turn up.
I'm pretty sure this has happened in my past show visits (I can't remember any specifics, but seem to recall walking round the hall at Stafford a couple of times wondering where car X was!) and has contributed to my reluctance to travel too far to a show.
I realise that there may be many reasons for a company's absence from a show, but it can be frustrating as a paying punter when the show isn't as advertised.
Firstly, and the biggest reason of all, is the distance I have to travel. Based on my past experiences of shows in various locations, I wouldn't travel more than 1 to 1-1/2 hours to get to a show. The exception to this is Stoneleigh. I have always felt my trips to Stoneleigh have been worthwhile.
When I lived in Lancashire, in addition to Stoneleigh, I visited shows at Capesthorne, Donington, Stafford and Harrogate.
Capesthorne felt more like a club meeting than a proper show - nothing wrong with that - it was a nice trip out on a Sunday afternoon and wasn't too far for me to go at the time. (About 45 minutes.)
I went to Donington either the first or second year it ran - certainly before they made use of the track - when it was supposed to be the show to rival Stoneleigh. Actually, I really enjoyed this show - I was actively researching my kit selection at the time though. I got to see pretty much everything I wanted to, and got to speak to most of them. It was about two hours each way, but seemed worth it. (Maybe I enjoyed it because it wasn't too busy!!)
My one and only visit to Stafford came later, I guess it was c. 2000 when it was still held in March. This was during the building years and I was after parts, so although there wasn't that much to see, it was a worthwhile visit as it only took about an hour and fifteen to get there and I was able to get some useful bits for the car.
IIRC, I went to Harrogate the same year as Stafford, having also been to Stoneleigh in between. From what I remember, it was of a similar standard to the Stafford show, but I think I'd got everything that I could usefully get from shows that year out of Stafford and Stoneleigh, So I came away from Harrogate rather disappointed, not least from having driven about two hours to get there!
Since I relocated to Reading, I've been to Stoneleigh a couple of times and one year (2007) I went to Donington because I wanted to attend a show and had missed Stoneleigh due to work commitments. I think this was the last time Donington ran and again featured no track action. I drove about 2-1/2 hours to get there and had seen everything the show had to offer in about 25 minutes. I was very disappointed, but had learnt my lesson really. (I must admit, I had nothing else to do that weekend, so wasn't too upset - it gave me something to do at least!)
But this is where my hour and a half rule comes from - in some ways, I'd quite like to go to the Exeter show, but as it's about 2-1/2 hours and my expectation would be a similar level of manufacturer and trade support to the previous Stafford, Harrogate and later Donington shows that I've attended, I just don't think it would be worth the drive.
My only other major gripe with shows generally is when exhibitors (manufacturers or other traders) are publicised as confirmed for the event, whether in adverts, press previews or even in show guides, and they don't turn up.
I'm pretty sure this has happened in my past show visits (I can't remember any specifics, but seem to recall walking round the hall at Stafford a couple of times wondering where car X was!) and has contributed to my reluctance to travel too far to a show.
I realise that there may be many reasons for a company's absence from a show, but it can be frustrating as a paying punter when the show isn't as advertised.
There is no way one show can be all things to all people!!,Stoneleigh is widely central for England and usualy has a bigger selection of manf ,component suppliers , club display area's of any show I've attended but it still has issues mainly on catering prices , a very long walk from the public car park ,and also distance from further parts of G.a show further B. I have attended all major shows in reasonable travelling distance as well as some of the smaller one ,Capesthorne etc . A showv further north could be a thought to catch that region . I have no real answers and attend the shows mainly to see members of RHOC ,and may be buy a few needs and chat with some like minded people my ops only but please stop the slanging match it does not do any body any good and gets very boring. Stafford is a good venue that is not the prob proper organisation is
Well I'm quite disapointed that the fight has been stopped 
It was starting to be funny...
Actually there are a couple of things I'd like to know from Den (when he's allowed out to play again);
Can you list the manufacturers and suppliers as I don't know who they were. I took the advise of those who did pay to go in and didn't hand over my hard earned cash, so I'd like to know if they were wrong to tell me it was empty.
Are there any of FairParkings list of question you can answer.
It was starting to be funny...Actually there are a couple of things I'd like to know from Den (when he's allowed out to play again);
Can you list the manufacturers and suppliers as I don't know who they were. I took the advise of those who did pay to go in and didn't hand over my hard earned cash, so I'd like to know if they were wrong to tell me it was empty.
Are there any of FairParkings list of question you can answer.
Opinions have been voiced extensively, we should now move on.
Further kicking and moaning is not likely to achieve anything beneficial for the scene. The show was by no means a failure, it was not busy but we did sell 2 MEV Rockets to two guys that we had not spoken to before, they handed money over at the show, RTR inform me that they have since sold a MEV Sonic7 to another customer who first appeared at the Stafford show. I will always remain therefore eternally grateful that the show went ahead.
Those with positive suggestions as to how the future of kit car shows should be run would be well received at this thread.
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Further kicking and moaning is not likely to achieve anything beneficial for the scene. The show was by no means a failure, it was not busy but we did sell 2 MEV Rockets to two guys that we had not spoken to before, they handed money over at the show, RTR inform me that they have since sold a MEV Sonic7 to another customer who first appeared at the Stafford show. I will always remain therefore eternally grateful that the show went ahead.
Those with positive suggestions as to how the future of kit car shows should be run would be well received at this thread.
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
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