Discussion
one eyed mick said:
.... are you going to do it properly next year? please.
Hi Mick,Tom (who posts as Tombs) has already indicated that the show won't run next year.... although a year is a long time (in politics) during which things might, just might, change.
As things stand, I'd be bonkers to try to run it again.
Den
singlecoil said:
Can you tell us anything about what went wrong, and why?
I realise that you may need to be diplomatic what you say, if you can say anything at all.
I could blame the economy, the ongoing effects of IVA, the general downward trend the industry is suffering or even the weather. I’d be right to do so too. I realise that you may need to be diplomatic what you say, if you can say anything at all.
However the main specific problem was that I was presumptuous and arrogant. As a direct result the show was never properly supported by the trade.
My fault entirely……
Den
DEN TANNER said:
singlecoil said:
Can you tell us anything about what went wrong, and why?
I realise that you may need to be diplomatic what you say, if you can say anything at all.
I could blame the economy, the ongoing effects of IVA, the general downward trend the industry is suffering or even the weather. I’d be right to do so too. I realise that you may need to be diplomatic what you say, if you can say anything at all.
However the main specific problem was that I was presumptuous and arrogant. As a direct result the show was never properly supported by the trade.
My fault entirely……
Den
But I have always regarded these as strengths. Which may explain the five marriages. Every one of which I have enjoyed. Unfortunately this has not, apparently, extended to the other halves.
To be serious for a moment (not usual for me), I do think the progressive effect of SVA/IVA has had an effect and the economic times cannot be helping.
You will bounce back because of your greatest strength. Sheer dogged determination. And good luck to you. At least you have ideas and go for it.
Steffan said:
Not probable but I suspect we are both Englishmen who go for it and Sod the consequences. Useful attitude in business not so good with personal relations
Emmmm.... Agreed....The problem with the kit car industry is that it's made up of a confederation of people just like us.
When it comes to pulling a show together it's necessary to get them all pulling together for the common good.
Truth is, I'd ruffled too many feathers to garner the required level of support.
Den
DEN TANNER said:
Steffan said:
Not probable but I suspect we are both Englishmen who go for it and Sod the consequences. Useful attitude in business not so good with personal relations
Emmmm.... Agreed....The problem with the kit car industry is that it's made up of a confederation of people just like us.
When it comes to pulling a show together it's necessary to get them all pulling together for the common good.
Truth is, I'd ruffled too many feathers to garner the required level of support.
Den
DEN TANNER said:
However the main specific problem was that I was presumptuous and arrogant. As a direct result the show was never properly supported by the trade.
My fault entirely……
Den
And that is the perfect way to begin to put anmything right, by accepting and admitting mistakes made.My fault entirely……
Den
Best of luck Den.
Yes, best of luck Den.
You may have lost the battle, but you will win the war.....
When the going gets tough, the tough get going....
One of the main problems with the kit car industry (imo) is it is divided into two (or three) factions, (publications) each with their own agenda...don't want to go over old ground, but, like anything else, it is sometimes always better if everyone rows in the same direction for the good of the industry.
Money is tight, donor cars are becoming increasingly hard to source, government legislation gets tougher every year, so, only the fittest will survive.
You may have lost the battle, but you will win the war.....
When the going gets tough, the tough get going....
One of the main problems with the kit car industry (imo) is it is divided into two (or three) factions, (publications) each with their own agenda...don't want to go over old ground, but, like anything else, it is sometimes always better if everyone rows in the same direction for the good of the industry.
Money is tight, donor cars are becoming increasingly hard to source, government legislation gets tougher every year, so, only the fittest will survive.
Wacky Racer said:
Money is tight, donor cars are becoming increasingly hard to source, government legislation gets tougher every year, so, only the fittest will survive.
Agreed 100%.Fewer people are attending shows generally, kit car shows specifically: therefore fewer manufacturers are financially able/willing to put on a display: so the shows offer decreasing appeal to the public: so fewer people attend: so show promoters are forced to increase both stand and gate prices: so many manufacturers are refusing to attend. In a loop - aren't we?
It seems to me there's not a single kit car show whose future is secure for 2012, let alone beyond. Even the great Stoneleigh show was significantly down this year. There surely comes a point when the economics of running shows doesn't add-up.
Wacky Racer said:
You may have lost the battle, but you will win the war.....
Is the war worth winning? Den
Well, I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to work out that things probably will never return to the halcyon years of the eighties and ninties.
Things are very tough out there at the moment, witness any number of boarded up high street shops up and down the country.....also I have always thought there are too many shows, maybe it was OK ten years ago, I remember going to Newark when I bought my Tiger Supersix and the place was heaving, there were thousands there..although it was a lovely hot summers day which obviously helps.
Hopefully it will be a case of batten down the hatches and ride out the storm, like any business, expenses have to be kept to the bare minimum, and it is not worth a small company paying out several hundreds/thousand pounds to hire a stall just to hand a few catalogues out and talk about the weather to passing punters. It's a catch 22 situation, if you don't display, how do people know about you?
Of course one big advantage these days is the advent of the internet, anyone can have an half decent site up and running for a few hundred pounds,... free if you know what you are doing.
Time is a good healer, and you may be a bit more optimistic in a couple of months, once the dust has settled.
Good luck anyhow...
Things are very tough out there at the moment, witness any number of boarded up high street shops up and down the country.....also I have always thought there are too many shows, maybe it was OK ten years ago, I remember going to Newark when I bought my Tiger Supersix and the place was heaving, there were thousands there..although it was a lovely hot summers day which obviously helps.
Hopefully it will be a case of batten down the hatches and ride out the storm, like any business, expenses have to be kept to the bare minimum, and it is not worth a small company paying out several hundreds/thousand pounds to hire a stall just to hand a few catalogues out and talk about the weather to passing punters. It's a catch 22 situation, if you don't display, how do people know about you?
Of course one big advantage these days is the advent of the internet, anyone can have an half decent site up and running for a few hundred pounds,... free if you know what you are doing.
Time is a good healer, and you may be a bit more optimistic in a couple of months, once the dust has settled.
Good luck anyhow...
Respect to Den for the honesty.
Are the shows collapsing because they are all the same, year in, year out? Nothing new to keep the existing kit owners occupied so they fall by the wayside and therefore the downward spiral begins?
Could the shows do with some innovation? some new "features"? Maybe someone with good ideas could improve the shows with something? Instead of a field of parked cars and a few halls of trade stands?
Could the owners clubs provide some idea on a way to take the shows forward?
Are the shows collapsing because they are all the same, year in, year out? Nothing new to keep the existing kit owners occupied so they fall by the wayside and therefore the downward spiral begins?
Could the shows do with some innovation? some new "features"? Maybe someone with good ideas could improve the shows with something? Instead of a field of parked cars and a few halls of trade stands?
Could the owners clubs provide some idea on a way to take the shows forward?
Rob52 said:
Respect to Den for the honesty.
Are the shows collapsing because they are all the same, year in, year out? Nothing new to keep the existing kit owners occupied so they fall by the wayside and therefore the downward spiral begins?
Could the shows do with some innovation? some new "features"? Maybe someone with good ideas could improve the shows with something? Instead of a field of parked cars and a few halls of trade stands?
Could the owners clubs provide some idea on a way to take the shows forward?
The man is right. Are the shows collapsing because they are all the same, year in, year out? Nothing new to keep the existing kit owners occupied so they fall by the wayside and therefore the downward spiral begins?
Could the shows do with some innovation? some new "features"? Maybe someone with good ideas could improve the shows with something? Instead of a field of parked cars and a few halls of trade stands?
Could the owners clubs provide some idea on a way to take the shows forward?
The problem is that many manufacturers are offering essentially the same products year upon year. There are very little really new ideas or designs on display.
I still see mini based Kit cars at shows offered as ideal projects. I love Minis but the drivetrain is 60 years out of date. The A series is OHV cast iron. Out of date. Not suitable for a really sharp kit car in today's market.
We desperately need new really challenging designs.
More of the same and clones of an old design simply will not work as a basis for a thriving Kit Car industry. That is the problem.
Unless the Kit Car industry can radically alter its approach I think we are looking at a steady decline in product. Despite the efforts of Den Tanner and others.
i think manufacturing in general is in a pretty poor state, part of that problem is the cost of manufacture here in the uk, prime example: small kit car manufacturer/ specialist repairs with decent 2000 sq ft unit
rent £10k
rates £3k+
insurances £4.5k
allowing the fact that you also need some time out, that is all but £400 p/w out the door before you even turn a light on
a move to china would give you about 10,000 sq ft and all the staff you need for the same money.
development of a car takes an immense amount of work and finances, so add in the fact that while you are doing this, not only are you not earning anything to cover expenses, you are spending more on parts/consumables etc,
i am currently developing a couple of cars at the moment(one you know(and either love or hate) and another that remains in development until utterly complete and ready to market,(properly) so the problem here! we spend all week doing our "paying work" then weekends and spare time developing the cars, very slow coming to market and an almost bottomless money pit in the process. modern kit cars are mostly, superbly engineered machines that are built to a far higher standard than many "production cars" and out-perform them in almost every way.
this is a big storm and as previously mentioned a lot of people are going to flounder, lets hope not too many from our industry!
my best regards to all involved in the kit car market, keep up the good work mr mills.
on a final note most of us are striving the same thing here, so how about a serious show/track day organised by all 3 magazines AND the manufacturers working together,properly set up, and marketed by all concerned. surely this would be THE SHOW TO HAVE! i know you cant make people buy something they dont want/can't afford but we can show a bit of solidarity
rent £10k
rates £3k+
insurances £4.5k
allowing the fact that you also need some time out, that is all but £400 p/w out the door before you even turn a light on
a move to china would give you about 10,000 sq ft and all the staff you need for the same money.
development of a car takes an immense amount of work and finances, so add in the fact that while you are doing this, not only are you not earning anything to cover expenses, you are spending more on parts/consumables etc,
i am currently developing a couple of cars at the moment(one you know(and either love or hate) and another that remains in development until utterly complete and ready to market,(properly) so the problem here! we spend all week doing our "paying work" then weekends and spare time developing the cars, very slow coming to market and an almost bottomless money pit in the process. modern kit cars are mostly, superbly engineered machines that are built to a far higher standard than many "production cars" and out-perform them in almost every way.
this is a big storm and as previously mentioned a lot of people are going to flounder, lets hope not too many from our industry!
my best regards to all involved in the kit car market, keep up the good work mr mills.
on a final note most of us are striving the same thing here, so how about a serious show/track day organised by all 3 magazines AND the manufacturers working together,properly set up, and marketed by all concerned. surely this would be THE SHOW TO HAVE! i know you cant make people buy something they dont want/can't afford but we can show a bit of solidarity
I think my point was missed. Its not about the manufacturers or their product.
It's the shows themselves. What is a "show"?
It is currently a load of cars parked in a field
A few trade stands in a hall.
A few manufacturers in a hall.
This is the same year in, year out. So people that have been in the kit ownership for a while have seen it all before, therfore start not going to shows. Meaning less cars in the fields, less sales for the traders/manufacturers, then less punters show up, the big downward spiral begins.
What the shows need is a redefinition of the word "show". Make it more of a show, like the many steam rallies or the many game fairs, why does everything (apart from the westie slalom) have to be so static at a kit show?
I like the idea of all the kit mags pulling together and running a combined show, but a bit more than cars parked in a field would be needed to draw in more kit owners, punters and traders......
eg: What about a "show ring" outside where Manufacturers can show off their demonstrator, drive it round (in a sensible fashion) talk over a tannoy system to the gathering crowds, explaining their cars, ideas, companies, future, basic costs, etc..
It's the shows themselves. What is a "show"?
It is currently a load of cars parked in a field
A few trade stands in a hall.
A few manufacturers in a hall.
This is the same year in, year out. So people that have been in the kit ownership for a while have seen it all before, therfore start not going to shows. Meaning less cars in the fields, less sales for the traders/manufacturers, then less punters show up, the big downward spiral begins.
What the shows need is a redefinition of the word "show". Make it more of a show, like the many steam rallies or the many game fairs, why does everything (apart from the westie slalom) have to be so static at a kit show?
I like the idea of all the kit mags pulling together and running a combined show, but a bit more than cars parked in a field would be needed to draw in more kit owners, punters and traders......
eg: What about a "show ring" outside where Manufacturers can show off their demonstrator, drive it round (in a sensible fashion) talk over a tannoy system to the gathering crowds, explaining their cars, ideas, companies, future, basic costs, etc..
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff