The British Kit Car Industry . Research Paper
Discussion
Sadly a Lotus 7 type car sells!
I am building a special version now LOL.
What would be good would be a rear drive car that uses the FWD set up in its entirety at the back and is rear drive.
Use the rack of the good old Escort and your cooking on gas.
There were kits years ago that used this idea Cox, Rosso and a great forgotten hero the Unipower.
However I used to own a Robin Hood and people would say great car etc as you drove past despite being a poor performer and my Quantum 2+2 RST which is damn quick does not even get noticed.
There is something special looking out on the back of the headlights and bonnet of a sevenesque car that is always going to appeal to so many.
I am building a special version now LOL.
What would be good would be a rear drive car that uses the FWD set up in its entirety at the back and is rear drive.
Use the rack of the good old Escort and your cooking on gas.
There were kits years ago that used this idea Cox, Rosso and a great forgotten hero the Unipower.
However I used to own a Robin Hood and people would say great car etc as you drove past despite being a poor performer and my Quantum 2+2 RST which is damn quick does not even get noticed.
There is something special looking out on the back of the headlights and bonnet of a sevenesque car that is always going to appeal to so many.
Steffan said:
I am not a designer nor could I be a designer.
Many years ago reading Psychology at London Uni I undertook loads of psychometric tests to determine my natural inabilities and disabilities.
I actually acted as a guinea pig on lots of test development. At Uni there were loads of test programs being developed and I was happy to undertake them all.
That was when I discovered my my leaning towards language and mathematics which I never knew I had till then. Also found loads os weaknesses such as inability to perceive accurate depth changes. I could not be a pilot I would land the plane 12 feet below the runway.
Trust me I could not be a designer. No spatial concepts. Also compulsive/obsessive on the spectrum but happily 40 year Accountancy gave me a good life. It is a career I enjoyed and gave me financial security. Can you ask more?
Because of my limitations I can only really comment on what we do not want. I have to see a design to appreciate a design. I could not design anything.
What we do not want is more Seven clones. I own three and not one of them is anywhere near as good as my old Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam. After 50 odd years of development this is hardly progress.
What we do not want are A series Kit Cars. Yes I have two but the mechanics are out of the Ark. This drivetrain is 60 years old. This is not progress.
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
Interestingly I think what you are describing IS design. A designer is not a bloke sitting at a drawing board or nowadays a CAD computer, a designer is someone who comes up with new or different ideas, or indeed someone who can point out things that are definitely NOT required - so I think perhaps you could be a designer after all! With regard to what you say re spatial skills, surely that is the work of a stylist NOT a designer (stylists & designers are frequently confused with one another)Many years ago reading Psychology at London Uni I undertook loads of psychometric tests to determine my natural inabilities and disabilities.
I actually acted as a guinea pig on lots of test development. At Uni there were loads of test programs being developed and I was happy to undertake them all.
That was when I discovered my my leaning towards language and mathematics which I never knew I had till then. Also found loads os weaknesses such as inability to perceive accurate depth changes. I could not be a pilot I would land the plane 12 feet below the runway.
Trust me I could not be a designer. No spatial concepts. Also compulsive/obsessive on the spectrum but happily 40 year Accountancy gave me a good life. It is a career I enjoyed and gave me financial security. Can you ask more?
Because of my limitations I can only really comment on what we do not want. I have to see a design to appreciate a design. I could not design anything.
What we do not want is more Seven clones. I own three and not one of them is anywhere near as good as my old Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam. After 50 odd years of development this is hardly progress.
What we do not want are A series Kit Cars. Yes I have two but the mechanics are out of the Ark. This drivetrain is 60 years old. This is not progress.
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
Couldn't agree more about the re-hashing of old clones! (most of them hide under the banner of "Lotus 7" or "Cobra" - Both so similar to the original that you really cannot tell the difference!!!)
I agree with your comments but unfortunately the original cars looker, better drove better and are about ten times more valuable.
I had a Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam ford engine that leaked oil everywhere and threw off fan belts frequently in the 1960's. Looked just like the Mcgoohan car from the Prisoner wonderful car most exhilarating drive but you did need wipers on the inside!
Driven a few genuine AC Cobras years ago as well, never owned one found them very challenging on corners the weight distribution left much to be desired. Very tail happy and undrivable at speed round corners in the wet.
I do not think I can offer any design ideas or suggestions. Just not my game.
However I can and have created various accounting systems, reporting sstyems, cost control systems, stock control systems and management control systems for a number of Kit Car manufacturers over the years. Now that I can do.
Really retired now except for the odd (advisedly) project.
Innovation, outstanding designs, entirely new concepts, those are the projects we need to see from Kit Car makers offering different, off the wall practicalities and challenging solutions. That's what we need.
Unfortunately I can describe it but I cannot design it. Hence my suggestion of a competition offered by Manufacturers or Kit Car magazines to the graduate designers coming out of Uni to produce such challenging new ideas. I do think that is worth a try.
I had a Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam ford engine that leaked oil everywhere and threw off fan belts frequently in the 1960's. Looked just like the Mcgoohan car from the Prisoner wonderful car most exhilarating drive but you did need wipers on the inside!
Driven a few genuine AC Cobras years ago as well, never owned one found them very challenging on corners the weight distribution left much to be desired. Very tail happy and undrivable at speed round corners in the wet.
I do not think I can offer any design ideas or suggestions. Just not my game.
However I can and have created various accounting systems, reporting sstyems, cost control systems, stock control systems and management control systems for a number of Kit Car manufacturers over the years. Now that I can do.
Really retired now except for the odd (advisedly) project.
Innovation, outstanding designs, entirely new concepts, those are the projects we need to see from Kit Car makers offering different, off the wall practicalities and challenging solutions. That's what we need.
Unfortunately I can describe it but I cannot design it. Hence my suggestion of a competition offered by Manufacturers or Kit Car magazines to the graduate designers coming out of Uni to produce such challenging new ideas. I do think that is worth a try.
anyone know of any millionaires that would invest a large amount of cash into an "all new kit car",no! maybe that is why they are millionaires!the amount of money needed is astronomical, as any of you that have done this, will already know .i agree entirely that this industry needs "new blood" but the problem is anyone brave (or stupid) enough to build such a car will probably not see a return on his investment for many years, if at all! Russ did you count every hour and every penny that you spent designing, building and productionising your car?
mirach said:
anyone know of any millionaires that would invest a large amount of cash into an "all new kit car",no! maybe that is why they are millionaires!the amount of money needed is astronomical, as any of you that have done this, will already know .i agree entirely that this industry needs "new blood" but the problem is anyone brave (or stupid) enough to build such a car will probably not see a return on his investment for many years, if at all! Russ did you count every hour and every penny that you spent designing, building and productionising your car?
Couldn't agree more - I think the major stumbling block for the type of car that Steffan is talking about is that production costs for small numbers (by small I mean anything less than 10,000) for anything with carbonfibre, honeycomb aluminium sandwich & all that sort of modern, hi-tech high strength low weight stuff are absolutely enormous compared with the potential cost/return of the car - hence why we are stuck with tube spaceframes & fibreglass as being the only mediums which are cheap to work with when designing/building in small quantities - even the no. of fibreglass monocoques that have seen any sort of significant numbers produced (now by significant I am talking kitcar numbers, so anything over 10!) can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand - but I may have missed a few so let's say both hands & be generous.However that doesn't mean we need to go on banging out the same old 7 "inspired" clones & Cobra reps. I think what is going on with exoskeletal cars/trikes is good & what Stuart Mills has done with the MX5 underpinned Exocet is a great idea, also all the bodykit stuff for MR2's MX5's has to be positive for the industry, whether I like these types of vehicles is irrelevant, they break new ground & get new people attracted & involved. Perhaps where we should be concentrating our efforts is on the electric vehicle industry as the major manufacturers certainly don't seem to have got the hang of it!
BTW with a name like Mirach I assume you are involved with the Mirach? Now that is a car which I always felt should have stolen some market from the 7's, I like the lines of the car, seems like where the 7 should have been headed 20 years ago, but seem to remember the car was very heavy (by kitcar standards), hence needing beefier engines & costing more & has certainly never acheived what it should/could have done. Unfortunatley, many of the existing crowd are so blinkered they will continue to just follow like sheep, I know I've seen a no. of critcisms of the styling by the 7 crowd - but where is the style to a 7? Yes, it was pretty unusual for the 1950's, but isn't it time we moved on - 60 years later!!!
"Russ did you count every hour and every penny that you spent designing, building and productionising your car?" Oh! Yes! Absolutely! Now I have only been working fairly full time on the project for about 8 years, & having had some reasonable success with sales recently having sold 4 complete cars (much more profitable than selling kits!) I think I've earned somewhere around 49 pence an hour from it so far!!!
Seriously I dread to think how many hours I've spent just sitting in front of the computer doing drawings for laser cutting! Fortunately I don't rely on the car to produce an income. The only good thing about it is that having got all those development hours out of the way, apart from a few thousand quid in the next few years as I update the moulds I shouldn't have many more hours or pounds to invest, so may get a slightly better return! 
I agree with all of the comments that I've read, but would like to add a few questions of my own, that I think any design engineer should ask himself or a potential customer before starting a new design.
“What is wrong with today Kitcars ? Are they the best answer for tomorrow’s transportation needs or are they just an old recipe rehashed endesly? Can we dream of something else? are we getting the best from todays available technology ? are we designing what customers want or what the manufacturers want?, can we find an alternative solution to what is available in the mainstream automotive industry ”
Is their a future niche where kitcar manufacturers can and will make a difference in the future? what will the kitcar industry look like in 2015-2017 ? what kitcars will survive by then ?
Just a few questions to continue this very interesting debate...
“What is wrong with today Kitcars ? Are they the best answer for tomorrow’s transportation needs or are they just an old recipe rehashed endesly? Can we dream of something else? are we getting the best from todays available technology ? are we designing what customers want or what the manufacturers want?, can we find an alternative solution to what is available in the mainstream automotive industry ”
Is their a future niche where kitcar manufacturers can and will make a difference in the future? what will the kitcar industry look like in 2015-2017 ? what kitcars will survive by then ?
Just a few questions to continue this very interesting debate...
To answer the above post:
The idea of building a car increasingly scares off potential customers.
We no longer live in a world in which cars are routinely serviced by their owners. Most people pay someone else to do this or are prevented from doing it by the trend for everything to be a sealed unit or tamper proof.
Kit cars are often marketed as cheap performance sourced from scrap cars. The manufacturers often leave a lot to be sorted out by the builder (look back for my first post for experience of a well known kit).
All of this puts people off.
The solution is to make kits that fit together properly with proper lists of parts (not a vague "any Ford engine etc" but a proper model/part number list), have a clear manual and are marketed as a hobby or even as automotive art as opposed to budget speed.
If you want to innovate sort this out. Modern techniques could be used to ensure accuracy (for example CNC machining of mounting points or suspension blanks to ensure fit).
Futuristic concepts aimed at bigger markets will fail unless you do this.
The idea of building a car increasingly scares off potential customers.
We no longer live in a world in which cars are routinely serviced by their owners. Most people pay someone else to do this or are prevented from doing it by the trend for everything to be a sealed unit or tamper proof.
Kit cars are often marketed as cheap performance sourced from scrap cars. The manufacturers often leave a lot to be sorted out by the builder (look back for my first post for experience of a well known kit).
All of this puts people off.
The solution is to make kits that fit together properly with proper lists of parts (not a vague "any Ford engine etc" but a proper model/part number list), have a clear manual and are marketed as a hobby or even as automotive art as opposed to budget speed.
If you want to innovate sort this out. Modern techniques could be used to ensure accuracy (for example CNC machining of mounting points or suspension blanks to ensure fit).
Futuristic concepts aimed at bigger markets will fail unless you do this.
I didn't want to lose some very interesting thoughts and comments that might be of interest to others, so I included a few from the thread Stafford show, :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Stuart Mills said:
Come on gents you cannot honestly suggest that this fantastic fun industry is all doom and gloom. Some kit cars are practical every day use cars that are very cheap to insure and hardly depreciate at all. Perhaps buying one would be a good idea for those trying to beat the economic crisis. Of course everyone is not effected by the downturn in world markets. Some firms will go to the wall. That happens to weaker firms everytime the word recession is mentioned in the news. Some do more business as a direct result of the cleansing. Guys that were going to spend 30k on a Cobra may cut budget to a 5k LSIS or the cheapest kit to build which of course is welded by the builder in his own workshop. Maybe, just maybe some firms did not attend Stafford as they had full order books. The fun toy market is alive and kicking, honest.
qdos said:
I'm glad to hear some positive comments at last from the last two contributions to this thread. It's the easiest thing in the world to talk doom and gloom. These kinds of cars are not there for financial or practical sense, if people only bought cars based on this then we'd be driving Tata Nanos wouldn't we?
It's a shame that another show appears to be biting the dust but that's got to be because it wasn't offering something that people wanted to travel and see sufficiently. I think you'll all agree that what ever it is you are interested in these days the cost of fuel is now a significant factor in deciding weather or not to travel to see an event. There's less money in most folks pockets (unless you're a banker though) so we think longer as to which shows, games, resteraunts, movies etc etc etc that we go and see.
I think Stuart is successful not only because he's building affordable fun kits but he also has a pretty impressive group of enthusiasts / fans, who not only build the cars but also socialise with them too. Why's that? well they are upbeat and positive about things and they don't let obstacles get in their way. To my mind the whole MEV thing is a superb example of what made the Kit Car scene in Britain such a success. I don't think you'll find many MEV owners going round proffering gloom and doom.
So I'm with those here who'd like to do something to improve the general malaise that surrounding some of the Kit Car events and would like to see stuff that's more proactive going on. If anyone out there's got any suggestions as to what they'd like to see being offered for kit car fans to take part in then I'd like to hear that and I'd like to do what ever I can to help make things happen. There's a number of events that we take part in that I'd be very happy to see more people taking part in anything they have built themselves or originated somewhere down the line as a kit / component vehicle, or indeed simply a standard vehicle that's been tweaked to give it some personality.
I recently took part in a one day show with no less than 16,000 people attending it, very much for this kind of like minded enthusiast/owner/driver. The world has moved on so we need to too!
It's a shame that another show appears to be biting the dust but that's got to be because it wasn't offering something that people wanted to travel and see sufficiently. I think you'll all agree that what ever it is you are interested in these days the cost of fuel is now a significant factor in deciding weather or not to travel to see an event. There's less money in most folks pockets (unless you're a banker though) so we think longer as to which shows, games, resteraunts, movies etc etc etc that we go and see.
I think Stuart is successful not only because he's building affordable fun kits but he also has a pretty impressive group of enthusiasts / fans, who not only build the cars but also socialise with them too. Why's that? well they are upbeat and positive about things and they don't let obstacles get in their way. To my mind the whole MEV thing is a superb example of what made the Kit Car scene in Britain such a success. I don't think you'll find many MEV owners going round proffering gloom and doom.
So I'm with those here who'd like to do something to improve the general malaise that surrounding some of the Kit Car events and would like to see stuff that's more proactive going on. If anyone out there's got any suggestions as to what they'd like to see being offered for kit car fans to take part in then I'd like to hear that and I'd like to do what ever I can to help make things happen. There's a number of events that we take part in that I'd be very happy to see more people taking part in anything they have built themselves or originated somewhere down the line as a kit / component vehicle, or indeed simply a standard vehicle that's been tweaked to give it some personality.
I recently took part in a one day show with no less than 16,000 people attending it, very much for this kind of like minded enthusiast/owner/driver. The world has moved on so we need to too!
Stuart Mills said:
I would assume that most people posting in the kit car section are supporters of the industry. Therefore I am surprised by the amount of negative comments that will only add to the scepticism. Potential customers may be put off when they read such comments as have been posted above. All I can say is that MEV is very busy and so are at least 3 other firms that I know of personally. We cannot be the only ones and lets be honest if we did not have enough customers then we do more promoting, it would certainly not the time to say " I cannot afford to exhibit" They pushed the Stafford show very hard and offered very attractive stand rates. It is beyond me as to why so few supported the show.
Historically the reason the industry manages to survive decline in world economics is due to how flexible manufacturers can be. If orders stop flowing then they can cut back and operate from home or work part time. They don't often pack up all together and if they do the product is often up for grabs on ebay.
So I would like to send my sincere condolences to the organisers of the Stafford show, I am sorry it was not a success and that it will not be held next year. "Use it or lose it" is a motto that fits here. Most did not use it and so we lose it.
Lets hope someone else starts a new show next year.
We are going to cater for MEV owners and run 3 open weekends at the MEV test facility in 2012. 3 weekends of fun for our owners, we are charging £40 and that includes camping, entertainment, workshop facilities, driving tuition, auto test skill course etc. I just wish someone would put on a kit car show along those lines that caters for the industry and all owners. Maybe someone will.
There are loads of x RAF airfield type tracks dotted around the U.K
Some are very cheap to rent but have little or no covered space, marquees are not cost prohibitive so I hope someone will take the opportunity here to put on a show in July or August, possibly further north than the usual Newark/Stoneleigh show grounds. The main part of our summer has NO kit car shows.
Other shows may be lost if the industry does not support them.
Historically the reason the industry manages to survive decline in world economics is due to how flexible manufacturers can be. If orders stop flowing then they can cut back and operate from home or work part time. They don't often pack up all together and if they do the product is often up for grabs on ebay.
So I would like to send my sincere condolences to the organisers of the Stafford show, I am sorry it was not a success and that it will not be held next year. "Use it or lose it" is a motto that fits here. Most did not use it and so we lose it.
Lets hope someone else starts a new show next year.
We are going to cater for MEV owners and run 3 open weekends at the MEV test facility in 2012. 3 weekends of fun for our owners, we are charging £40 and that includes camping, entertainment, workshop facilities, driving tuition, auto test skill course etc. I just wish someone would put on a kit car show along those lines that caters for the industry and all owners. Maybe someone will.
There are loads of x RAF airfield type tracks dotted around the U.K
Some are very cheap to rent but have little or no covered space, marquees are not cost prohibitive so I hope someone will take the opportunity here to put on a show in July or August, possibly further north than the usual Newark/Stoneleigh show grounds. The main part of our summer has NO kit car shows.
Other shows may be lost if the industry does not support them.
mirach said:
the problem with"mainstream" motor shows is the sheer cost of exhibiting,something most kit manufacturers cannot afford. i still think a well organised joint effort from manufacturers and ALL the magazines at a decent track where manufacturers can take prospective buyers out and let the cars do what they do best, in relative safety, and also the opportunity for existing owners to have a go on track for a realistic cost would be the best option, most people with kit cars are real enthusiasts and enjoy going to the shows.
The fact that people are fed up with seeing the same thing over and over, at show after show is a difficult problem to overcome, so maybe we need something different to pull the crowds, for example; a famous race driver or ex race driver that would be prepared to spend a couple of hours taking paying passengers round in a quick car, with the proceeds going to a reputeable charity ie c.l.i.c or such like. with us all working together we could surely bully someone into that. and how many people would like to come back from a show saying "i got a lap around donnington with nigel mansell" for example
i am genuinely sorry that stafford did not match up to expectations for the organisers,exhibitors and the visitors, so do we let the shows die a death or find something to revive them!!
The fact that people are fed up with seeing the same thing over and over, at show after show is a difficult problem to overcome, so maybe we need something different to pull the crowds, for example; a famous race driver or ex race driver that would be prepared to spend a couple of hours taking paying passengers round in a quick car, with the proceeds going to a reputeable charity ie c.l.i.c or such like. with us all working together we could surely bully someone into that. and how many people would like to come back from a show saying "i got a lap around donnington with nigel mansell" for example
i am genuinely sorry that stafford did not match up to expectations for the organisers,exhibitors and the visitors, so do we let the shows die a death or find something to revive them!!
Steffan said:
As I have said before Den, you are an ideas man.
I think the current Kit Car shows are in need of a fundamental revision. You are right the Stoneleigh show was not good and this has been true of every show I have been to over the last year.
I have no doubt you will come up with a plan: that's your forte. You have done once or twice before!
I could not design my way out of a paper bag. I am an Accountant not a profession noted for its design flair.
But many years of building Kit Cars has made me realise there are too many simple seven clones and copies about. We do NOT need 20 Locost type makers.
What is needed is a really different take on the Kit Car.
If that could produce a vehicle that really grabbed the owners attention and the car was kept within realistic costs, then I think the energy and fizz of busy vibrant shows would return.
We need an outstanding new product. I cannot find one. Nor can other enthusiasts.
Hence the disappointing shows.
I think the current Kit Car shows are in need of a fundamental revision. You are right the Stoneleigh show was not good and this has been true of every show I have been to over the last year.
I have no doubt you will come up with a plan: that's your forte. You have done once or twice before!
I could not design my way out of a paper bag. I am an Accountant not a profession noted for its design flair.
But many years of building Kit Cars has made me realise there are too many simple seven clones and copies about. We do NOT need 20 Locost type makers.
What is needed is a really different take on the Kit Car.
If that could produce a vehicle that really grabbed the owners attention and the car was kept within realistic costs, then I think the energy and fizz of busy vibrant shows would return.
We need an outstanding new product. I cannot find one. Nor can other enthusiasts.
Hence the disappointing shows.
mirach said:
i think manufacturing in general is in a pretty poor state, part of that problem is the cost of manufacture here in the uk, prime example: small kit car manufacturer/ specialist repairs with decent 2000 sq ft unit
rent £10k
rates £3k+
insurances £4.5k
allowing the fact that you also need some time out, that is all but £400 p/w out the door before you even turn a light on
a move to china would give you about 10,000 sq ft and all the staff you need for the same money.
development of a car takes an immense amount of work and finances, so add in the fact that while you are doing this, not only are you not earning anything to cover expenses, you are spending more on parts/consumables etc,
i am currently developing a couple of cars at the moment(one you know(and either love or hate) and another that remains in development until utterly complete and ready to market,(properly) so the problem here! we spend all week doing our "paying work" then weekends and spare time developing the cars, very slow coming to market and an almost bottomless money pit in the process. modern kit cars are mostly, superbly engineered machines that are built to a far higher standard than many "production cars" and out-perform them in almost every way.
this is a big storm and as previously mentioned a lot of people are going to flounder, lets hope not too many from our industry!
my best regards to all involved in the kit car market, keep up the good work mr mills.
on a final note most of us are striving the same thing here, so how about a serious show/track day organised by all 3 magazines AND the manufacturers working together,properly set up, and marketed by all concerned. surely this would be THE SHOW TO HAVE! i know you cant make people buy something they dont want/can't afford but we can show a bit of solidarity
rent £10k
rates £3k+
insurances £4.5k
allowing the fact that you also need some time out, that is all but £400 p/w out the door before you even turn a light on
a move to china would give you about 10,000 sq ft and all the staff you need for the same money.
development of a car takes an immense amount of work and finances, so add in the fact that while you are doing this, not only are you not earning anything to cover expenses, you are spending more on parts/consumables etc,
i am currently developing a couple of cars at the moment(one you know(and either love or hate) and another that remains in development until utterly complete and ready to market,(properly) so the problem here! we spend all week doing our "paying work" then weekends and spare time developing the cars, very slow coming to market and an almost bottomless money pit in the process. modern kit cars are mostly, superbly engineered machines that are built to a far higher standard than many "production cars" and out-perform them in almost every way.
this is a big storm and as previously mentioned a lot of people are going to flounder, lets hope not too many from our industry!
my best regards to all involved in the kit car market, keep up the good work mr mills.
on a final note most of us are striving the same thing here, so how about a serious show/track day organised by all 3 magazines AND the manufacturers working together,properly set up, and marketed by all concerned. surely this would be THE SHOW TO HAVE! i know you cant make people buy something they dont want/can't afford but we can show a bit of solidarity
mirach said:
i think manufacturing in general is in a pretty poor state, part of that problem is the cost of manufacture here in the uk, prime example: small kit car manufacturer/ specialist repairs with decent 2000 sq ft unit
rent £10k
rates £3k+
insurances £4.5k
allowing the fact that you also need some time out, that is all but £400 p/w out the door before you even turn a light on
a move to china would give you about 10,000 sq ft and all the staff you need for the same money.
development of a car takes an immense amount of work and finances, so add in the fact that while you are doing this, not only are you not earning anything to cover expenses, you are spending more on parts/consumables etc,
i am currently developing a couple of cars at the moment(one you know(and either love or hate) and another that remains in development until utterly complete and ready to market,(properly) so the problem here! we spend all week doing our "paying work" then weekends and spare time developing the cars, very slow coming to market and an almost bottomless money pit in the process. modern kit cars are mostly, superbly engineered machines that are built to a far higher standard than many "production cars" and out-perform them in almost every way.
this is a big storm and as previously mentioned a lot of people are going to flounder, lets hope not too many from our industry!
my best regards to all involved in the kit car market, keep up the good work mr mills.
on a final note most of us are striving the same thing here, so how about a serious show/track day organised by all 3 magazines AND the manufacturers working together,properly set up, and marketed by all concerned. surely this would be THE SHOW TO HAVE! i know you cant make people buy something they dont want/can't afford but we can show a bit of solidarity
rent £10k
rates £3k+
insurances £4.5k
allowing the fact that you also need some time out, that is all but £400 p/w out the door before you even turn a light on
a move to china would give you about 10,000 sq ft and all the staff you need for the same money.
development of a car takes an immense amount of work and finances, so add in the fact that while you are doing this, not only are you not earning anything to cover expenses, you are spending more on parts/consumables etc,
i am currently developing a couple of cars at the moment(one you know(and either love or hate) and another that remains in development until utterly complete and ready to market,(properly) so the problem here! we spend all week doing our "paying work" then weekends and spare time developing the cars, very slow coming to market and an almost bottomless money pit in the process. modern kit cars are mostly, superbly engineered machines that are built to a far higher standard than many "production cars" and out-perform them in almost every way.
this is a big storm and as previously mentioned a lot of people are going to flounder, lets hope not too many from our industry!
my best regards to all involved in the kit car market, keep up the good work mr mills.
on a final note most of us are striving the same thing here, so how about a serious show/track day organised by all 3 magazines AND the manufacturers working together,properly set up, and marketed by all concerned. surely this would be THE SHOW TO HAVE! i know you cant make people buy something they dont want/can't afford but we can show a bit of solidarity
rdodger said:
Every one seems to agree that the kit car market is a tough place to be at the moment. Lets face it it's tough everywhere.
I think there is lots of positive stuff going on though. I specifically mean the move from some manufactureres for single donor cheaper to build kits. Basically back to where the kit car scene came from. There are new donor cars out there to use ie MX5, BMW, Focus etc So not all doom and gloom, there is a way forward and a massive new market in terms of cars that are suitable for track. 10 years ago there were very few track days, now everyone is doing them!
As for the shows.
It's times like these where people have to pull together. As has been posted before without magazines, manufacturers, shows, parts suppliers the whole thing fails if one drops out.
Total Kitcars action days were a great idea, but didn't really work. Perhaps if a full show was to take place at a circuit and manufacturers booked in for a track day at the same time, then we would see better results. Possible to do? It will be expensive and difficult to schedule on a weekend.
Stoneleigh isn't what it used to be...... Maybe, maybe not. Rose coloured glasses? I do know that people and manufacturers come and go and yes there were fewer manufacturers in the last few years but also some new ones.
My plan?
Well i think Stoneleigh can and should continue as it is. Maybe with a few new attractions for the general public.
Other shows? Well I love the idea of Stafford as I am a nothern monkey. Is it far north enough? Is it too close to Stoneleigh? Detling and Stafford need to be combined with something else? Classic car show? Motorsport show? I know the kits always go down well at the NEC.
If other shows are going to continue everyone needs to pull together. Owners, publications, manufacturers etc. Lets have combined shows, not each magazine having a show. If everyone can't agree how things should be done, get a professional to organise it. Everyone advertises it, every owners club gets an invite, every forum, local press/TV.
What do we end up with?
3 big shows! 1 North, 1 South and Stoneleigh in the middle. Everyone goes to at least 2 and everyone is happy! Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
I think there is lots of positive stuff going on though. I specifically mean the move from some manufactureres for single donor cheaper to build kits. Basically back to where the kit car scene came from. There are new donor cars out there to use ie MX5, BMW, Focus etc So not all doom and gloom, there is a way forward and a massive new market in terms of cars that are suitable for track. 10 years ago there were very few track days, now everyone is doing them!
As for the shows.
It's times like these where people have to pull together. As has been posted before without magazines, manufacturers, shows, parts suppliers the whole thing fails if one drops out.
Total Kitcars action days were a great idea, but didn't really work. Perhaps if a full show was to take place at a circuit and manufacturers booked in for a track day at the same time, then we would see better results. Possible to do? It will be expensive and difficult to schedule on a weekend.
Stoneleigh isn't what it used to be...... Maybe, maybe not. Rose coloured glasses? I do know that people and manufacturers come and go and yes there were fewer manufacturers in the last few years but also some new ones.
My plan?
Well i think Stoneleigh can and should continue as it is. Maybe with a few new attractions for the general public.
Other shows? Well I love the idea of Stafford as I am a nothern monkey. Is it far north enough? Is it too close to Stoneleigh? Detling and Stafford need to be combined with something else? Classic car show? Motorsport show? I know the kits always go down well at the NEC.
If other shows are going to continue everyone needs to pull together. Owners, publications, manufacturers etc. Lets have combined shows, not each magazine having a show. If everyone can't agree how things should be done, get a professional to organise it. Everyone advertises it, every owners club gets an invite, every forum, local press/TV.
What do we end up with?
3 big shows! 1 North, 1 South and Stoneleigh in the middle. Everyone goes to at least 2 and everyone is happy! Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
B33FY said:
Some of the ideas that stand out for me for me are certainly a more more collaborative unified approach to sponsoring and organising the shows, not only sharing the risk but the pooling of resourses in difficult times and the professional promotion of the industry as whole in a positive light.
Given the fairly static nature of the industry, interactivity and entertainment would be an important component also. test drives, demonstration runs, driving displays. technical workshops etc. If the show was track based why not have some 750 club demonstration runs or possible racing.
Why not link up with another magazine or company that promotes a complimentary automotive interest I can see clear similarities between PPC and the kitcar industry for example. Each would bring complimentary traders, exhibitors and would be of interest to all, as well as filling up half empty exhibition halls and appealing to a more broader group of enthusiasts.
I'm relatively new to the kitcar scene so am not sure whats done to encourage kitcar owners to shows, certainly this is an integral part of the show, for me one of the reasons for going is to look at the cars, get ideas, talk to the owners. Are there competitions and prizes for different categories of cars and best club stands etc. Though entry is free for kit car owners (not that common with other automotive shows) perhaps through offering VIP hospitality areas, serviced camping areas over and above a basic field etc, income can be generated.
Given the fairly static nature of the industry, interactivity and entertainment would be an important component also. test drives, demonstration runs, driving displays. technical workshops etc. If the show was track based why not have some 750 club demonstration runs or possible racing.
Why not link up with another magazine or company that promotes a complimentary automotive interest I can see clear similarities between PPC and the kitcar industry for example. Each would bring complimentary traders, exhibitors and would be of interest to all, as well as filling up half empty exhibition halls and appealing to a more broader group of enthusiasts.
I'm relatively new to the kitcar scene so am not sure whats done to encourage kitcar owners to shows, certainly this is an integral part of the show, for me one of the reasons for going is to look at the cars, get ideas, talk to the owners. Are there competitions and prizes for different categories of cars and best club stands etc. Though entry is free for kit car owners (not that common with other automotive shows) perhaps through offering VIP hospitality areas, serviced camping areas over and above a basic field etc, income can be generated.
Edited by B33FY on Wednesday 28th September 13:14
mirach said:
i still maintain that a show with all the magazines and as many manufacturers involved in the organisation of it, is the way to go here, at least this way you have a guaranteed commitment from all party's with a known cost to all, three magazines to promote and advertise the event, and hopefully full support from the industry.
this may sound hypocritical from someone who has been absent from showing for a few years now but sometimes a big fall takes a while to get up from. but i see a bit of a vicious circle forming here, no shows=failing industry. failing industry=failing magazines. failing magazines= nowhere for manufacturers to advertise. so ultimately no shows,no mags,no manufacturers. i know in reality this probably wouldn't happen, so to ensure it doesn't get the industry working together for a change, come on den you know everyone in the trade, and you have the utmost respect from most of us in it
this may sound hypocritical from someone who has been absent from showing for a few years now but sometimes a big fall takes a while to get up from. but i see a bit of a vicious circle forming here, no shows=failing industry. failing industry=failing magazines. failing magazines= nowhere for manufacturers to advertise. so ultimately no shows,no mags,no manufacturers. i know in reality this probably wouldn't happen, so to ensure it doesn't get the industry working together for a change, come on den you know everyone in the trade, and you have the utmost respect from most of us in it
v8will said:
I'd like to think of myself as possible the kind of target market that component car manufacturers may be looking for. Late twenties, settled down with some (not a lot) disposable income and a really deep love for anything automotive.
I'm going to chip in with a few points that I hope may be of interest or have relevance. Just a few random thoughts.
First question is, How would a manufacturer get me to part with my hard earned?
I really don't 'get' alot of the various niche shows that seem to take place (or used to) around the UK. Unless you are really determined to attend then you are on the backfoot against something like the Autosport at the NEC. Why aren't more kit car manufacturers attending? I know that Caterham and Westfield do for example but what about the rest? Surely the footfall figures alone would make it worth a punt? At the very least it would narrow the percieved gap between kit cars and more mainstream efforts. Basically, dedicated shows are a waste of money. If the big shows are too expensive the a solution needs to be thought of. I would have been very annoyed to travel to a show as described in by the OP.
Websites, where are the good ones? some of the manufacturer sites are pretty shoddy yet 99% of people will start there whilst doing a little research. Is it really that difficult to get some decent downloadable PDF's up or some good Youtube footage? Why am I having to rely on finding owners build threads etc. It would be better than ringing up companies and having to pay for a basic brochure. GD seem to have a good site and the footage of their T70 at the ring would sell that car to me instantly. A good example to follow.
Have any manufacturers considered offering a kit out on a loan basis to any of the big name magazines? Think Evo long term test etc. Think of the exposure that otherwise is restricted to the main kit car titles which lets face it don't have the same circulation figures.
I agree with other comments made about the saturation of the market especially where 7 style cars are concerned. It certainly will be survival of the fittest and I must admit that MEV are impressive by purposely offering something completely different to the norm. I guess the same criticism could be offered at Cobra replicas?
My concern now, in 2011 is where the heck you start to source some of the donor cars. The Sierra is gone 20 years and although a few are offering BMW or MX5 based kits the uptake on that is slow (my opinion, maybe right or wrong)
Manufacturers need to really start and look at future proofing their cars otherwise IVA and availability of older donors will naturally select what is about in 10 years.
I'm going to chip in with a few points that I hope may be of interest or have relevance. Just a few random thoughts.
First question is, How would a manufacturer get me to part with my hard earned?
I really don't 'get' alot of the various niche shows that seem to take place (or used to) around the UK. Unless you are really determined to attend then you are on the backfoot against something like the Autosport at the NEC. Why aren't more kit car manufacturers attending? I know that Caterham and Westfield do for example but what about the rest? Surely the footfall figures alone would make it worth a punt? At the very least it would narrow the percieved gap between kit cars and more mainstream efforts. Basically, dedicated shows are a waste of money. If the big shows are too expensive the a solution needs to be thought of. I would have been very annoyed to travel to a show as described in by the OP.
Websites, where are the good ones? some of the manufacturer sites are pretty shoddy yet 99% of people will start there whilst doing a little research. Is it really that difficult to get some decent downloadable PDF's up or some good Youtube footage? Why am I having to rely on finding owners build threads etc. It would be better than ringing up companies and having to pay for a basic brochure. GD seem to have a good site and the footage of their T70 at the ring would sell that car to me instantly. A good example to follow.
Have any manufacturers considered offering a kit out on a loan basis to any of the big name magazines? Think Evo long term test etc. Think of the exposure that otherwise is restricted to the main kit car titles which lets face it don't have the same circulation figures.
I agree with other comments made about the saturation of the market especially where 7 style cars are concerned. It certainly will be survival of the fittest and I must admit that MEV are impressive by purposely offering something completely different to the norm. I guess the same criticism could be offered at Cobra replicas?
My concern now, in 2011 is where the heck you start to source some of the donor cars. The Sierra is gone 20 years and although a few are offering BMW or MX5 based kits the uptake on that is slow (my opinion, maybe right or wrong)
Manufacturers need to really start and look at future proofing their cars otherwise IVA and availability of older donors will naturally select what is about in 10 years.
qdos said:
Just throwing my two penneth in here, as I think this thread is pretty important to all of us remotely involved in kit cars either as a fan, a driver, or a manufacturer.
I agree in essence with pretty much all that's being said here and particularly Russ's comments and suggestions. I think the whole show thing really needs a complete rethink and I also very very much think that we should all be pulling together rather than trying to compete against. I set up a web site last year in order to try and facilitate this but I have to admit that I've been pretty busy and have somewhat neglected it.(those who would like to get involved and have some collaborative discussions about how we improve our niche industry can message me and I'll give you a link and log on)
Mirach has also raised a very important pointer as to where things could go if we don't do what the bikers are doing and start working together and wave the flag for not only kits but also for our rights to be individuals and be allowed to 'customise' our property the way we want them. Now obviously there's limits to this but make no mistake if we leave things to the powers that be we'll all have to pay through the nose for everything and will only be allowed to have what the corporates give us that make them huge profits.
We have a fantastic heritage here in the UK which includes some of the finest cars of their kind. We have been innovators and had a superb engineering background which is one reason why in motorsport at least there's barely any other country out there that can come close to the Brits.
If you have a look at our motor industry (what's left of it anyway) you'll see that a fair few of them actually started off as kit cars. Noble, Marcos, TVR, Ultima, Ginetta even Lotus. We need to stand together and help make a success of this wonderful industry we are part of and work together because if we don't then the EU will have us where we can't even change a light bulb without having a qualified engineer do it for us! It's happened in Italy and several other EU countries too. What does sadly amuse me though is that it's not at all unusual to find these so called qualified engineers know less about cars than we do but of course there's reams and reams of expensive paper certificates that line the walls of the offices that say that they know more than us.
We build these cars, we know this industry, and together we all do a pretty fine job of producing some amazing machines. We need to celebrate this and show the powers that be that we are the best people to keep this alive and fall foul to the Latin saying "Illegitimi non carborundum"
So getting back to the show thing I think yep we do need to have a rethink on this and get together to make something that people want to support. Actually if you look at the Motorshows for the big boys you'll see they've had to do the same. The show's that are a success are far more than just some carpeted patches of concrete floor in a community centre. Audience participation is the key. And I'm happy to help with anything to get these shows to be flagships we're proud to be part of, we're all shouting the same thing really so let's make it work. We've been talking with our compatriates in the industry a while now and I know it's possible to do something so we're up for it.
I agree in essence with pretty much all that's being said here and particularly Russ's comments and suggestions. I think the whole show thing really needs a complete rethink and I also very very much think that we should all be pulling together rather than trying to compete against. I set up a web site last year in order to try and facilitate this but I have to admit that I've been pretty busy and have somewhat neglected it.(those who would like to get involved and have some collaborative discussions about how we improve our niche industry can message me and I'll give you a link and log on)
Mirach has also raised a very important pointer as to where things could go if we don't do what the bikers are doing and start working together and wave the flag for not only kits but also for our rights to be individuals and be allowed to 'customise' our property the way we want them. Now obviously there's limits to this but make no mistake if we leave things to the powers that be we'll all have to pay through the nose for everything and will only be allowed to have what the corporates give us that make them huge profits.
We have a fantastic heritage here in the UK which includes some of the finest cars of their kind. We have been innovators and had a superb engineering background which is one reason why in motorsport at least there's barely any other country out there that can come close to the Brits.
If you have a look at our motor industry (what's left of it anyway) you'll see that a fair few of them actually started off as kit cars. Noble, Marcos, TVR, Ultima, Ginetta even Lotus. We need to stand together and help make a success of this wonderful industry we are part of and work together because if we don't then the EU will have us where we can't even change a light bulb without having a qualified engineer do it for us! It's happened in Italy and several other EU countries too. What does sadly amuse me though is that it's not at all unusual to find these so called qualified engineers know less about cars than we do but of course there's reams and reams of expensive paper certificates that line the walls of the offices that say that they know more than us.
We build these cars, we know this industry, and together we all do a pretty fine job of producing some amazing machines. We need to celebrate this and show the powers that be that we are the best people to keep this alive and fall foul to the Latin saying "Illegitimi non carborundum"
So getting back to the show thing I think yep we do need to have a rethink on this and get together to make something that people want to support. Actually if you look at the Motorshows for the big boys you'll see they've had to do the same. The show's that are a success are far more than just some carpeted patches of concrete floor in a community centre. Audience participation is the key. And I'm happy to help with anything to get these shows to be flagships we're proud to be part of, we're all shouting the same thing really so let's make it work. We've been talking with our compatriates in the industry a while now and I know it's possible to do something so we're up for it.
Edited by qdos on Thursday 29th September 11:05
Stuart Mills said:
One thing that concerns me is that when I go to Exeter I actually recognise quite a few of the MOP. That is worrying and appears to be common across the rest of the shows to an extent. I stand at Newark and see faces from last year, still looking, still thinking, not yet ready to buy but still interested. It's always good to catch up with customers from a few years back and hear the tales of their progress but that does not support the days sales targets.
Have we(manufacturers/show organsiers)failed to attract sufficient new potential business? The Motoring media tend to leave kits well alone apart from our kit dedicated publications which are great but when you see the cost of an advert in say Top Gear magazine you would need to be brave to place one especially considering they are unlikely to feature your car in the editorial section.
Chicken and egg situation, do I pay a fortune to stand at Autosport, fingers crossed I reach a new audience. They must be making a fortune on that show but they get away with it. Kit shows do need to change or clearly they will fail. A field full of kits that are mainly similar to each other does not seem like a major attraction to me, and they all get in for free which does not help pay for the facility. The cars in those fields are also on show in the halls for new potential customers to see. The club life that is promoted in the fields is very important though but I can't think of ANY other show, cars or not where the majority get in for free.
We all seem to agree that action on wheels is required, and as I said some pages back a cheap track in the Northish with a large basic marquee for exhibitors, and success, maybe Blyton, but the boss never returned my calls or emails.
Shakespere County Raceway is about £3000k for a weekend show.
I have considered putting on an action show myself but feel it may be seen as inappropriate as I am a manufacturer.
Next year there will need to be changes to our scene, that's a definite.
Have we(manufacturers/show organsiers)failed to attract sufficient new potential business? The Motoring media tend to leave kits well alone apart from our kit dedicated publications which are great but when you see the cost of an advert in say Top Gear magazine you would need to be brave to place one especially considering they are unlikely to feature your car in the editorial section.
Chicken and egg situation, do I pay a fortune to stand at Autosport, fingers crossed I reach a new audience. They must be making a fortune on that show but they get away with it. Kit shows do need to change or clearly they will fail. A field full of kits that are mainly similar to each other does not seem like a major attraction to me, and they all get in for free which does not help pay for the facility. The cars in those fields are also on show in the halls for new potential customers to see. The club life that is promoted in the fields is very important though but I can't think of ANY other show, cars or not where the majority get in for free.
We all seem to agree that action on wheels is required, and as I said some pages back a cheap track in the Northish with a large basic marquee for exhibitors, and success, maybe Blyton, but the boss never returned my calls or emails.
Shakespere County Raceway is about £3000k for a weekend show.
I have considered putting on an action show myself but feel it may be seen as inappropriate as I am a manufacturer.
Next year there will need to be changes to our scene, that's a definite.
Steffan said:
Unfortunately I think next year is going to be extremely difficult for every business in the UK and very probably throughout the western world.
Clearly as the driving force behind Mills Experimental Vehicles you have an excellent perception of the UK market. I wish all the Kit Car Manufacturers had the same understanding and energy.
Fact is they do not and I can see a heavy toll on the remaining Kit Car manufacturers particularly the Seven clone makers. I really think a significant number of Kit Cars` will disappear. I just cannot see the A series engine, for example, lovely though it was fifty years ago when I was first driving, as a serious base for modern kit cars.
I do not want this to happen but I do think that significant parts of the industry are simply not keeping up with the changes needed.
I understand the reticence of Den Tanner and yourself, and indeed every other manufacturer, about the cost/benefit advantages or otherwise of expensive shows and exhibitions.
This is a good time in business to concentrate on core activities and stay clear of expansion. Expansion in a falling market, unless you are very wealthy, is the quickest way to invite and business failure of which I know. It should be avoided if at all possible.
My main take on this is that the Kit Car market needs to move from the evocative but very old technology of projects like A series based cars or Citroen 2CV based cars and move right out into the front of modern high performance lightweight projects offering much better environmental returns and consumption and a much more dynamic product.
Hence my suggestion of a Kit Car maker or magazine sponsoring a competition to discover today's Colin Chapman. I really think the magazines could make this work in both circulation return and creating interest in building Kit Cars which might the roll on to assist in better shows and displays of the product.
That's my take. What does everybody else think?
Clearly as the driving force behind Mills Experimental Vehicles you have an excellent perception of the UK market. I wish all the Kit Car Manufacturers had the same understanding and energy.
Fact is they do not and I can see a heavy toll on the remaining Kit Car manufacturers particularly the Seven clone makers. I really think a significant number of Kit Cars` will disappear. I just cannot see the A series engine, for example, lovely though it was fifty years ago when I was first driving, as a serious base for modern kit cars.
I do not want this to happen but I do think that significant parts of the industry are simply not keeping up with the changes needed.
I understand the reticence of Den Tanner and yourself, and indeed every other manufacturer, about the cost/benefit advantages or otherwise of expensive shows and exhibitions.
This is a good time in business to concentrate on core activities and stay clear of expansion. Expansion in a falling market, unless you are very wealthy, is the quickest way to invite and business failure of which I know. It should be avoided if at all possible.
My main take on this is that the Kit Car market needs to move from the evocative but very old technology of projects like A series based cars or Citroen 2CV based cars and move right out into the front of modern high performance lightweight projects offering much better environmental returns and consumption and a much more dynamic product.
Hence my suggestion of a Kit Car maker or magazine sponsoring a competition to discover today's Colin Chapman. I really think the magazines could make this work in both circulation return and creating interest in building Kit Cars which might the roll on to assist in better shows and displays of the product.
That's my take. What does everybody else think?
mirach said:
i think there will always be a market of some sort for what i would term a cheap BASIC kit, that meaning ,not everybody has the knowledge or the funds to build a car that is run on ecu's and throttle bodies but is however capable of changing the points on their crossflow. this is the whole point of the specialist car market,not everyone wants to open the bonnet, scratch their head and phone a main dealer with a limitless credit card. make no mistake, if we all sit back, it will lead to kit cars being permitted only if built with all new parts inc cats, followed by type approval, followed by crash testing and n,cap ratings it wont stop until we are all gone.
back to the show debate: i know of at least 4 other manufacturers that would be interested in working together,so i personally think this is an avenue worth persueing, possibly involving the modified lot and some of the classic boys as well, no hi-cost rubber bun vans, a marqee doing hog roasts all excess proceeds from the whole show into charity .some famous faces etc etc, anything to bring people through the doors.
we all know that if we let kevin and tracy out on a track in their modified saxo that they have spent 15k modifying, kevin will then want the kit car that passes him like he's not moving! or all of them!! no offence to anyone called kevin and tracy!
back to the show debate: i know of at least 4 other manufacturers that would be interested in working together,so i personally think this is an avenue worth persueing, possibly involving the modified lot and some of the classic boys as well, no hi-cost rubber bun vans, a marqee doing hog roasts all excess proceeds from the whole show into charity .some famous faces etc etc, anything to bring people through the doors.
we all know that if we let kevin and tracy out on a track in their modified saxo that they have spent 15k modifying, kevin will then want the kit car that passes him like he's not moving! or all of them!! no offence to anyone called kevin and tracy!
Stuart Mills said:
I hope not to offend anyone but here is a sad but true fact.
The average age of a kit car show visitor is getting older. Take me forinstance, I became seriously interested in kit cars when I was 18 or 19. I have maintained an interest ever since and vistied many many shows before becoming involved in the industry. I am now 53. We need too attract 18 year olds. Now that is not going to be easy when todays young appear to be more interested in a virtual world, AKA the Playstation generation. But that cannot apply to all 18-30 year olds can it.
So how do we attract new blood?
The average age of a kit car show visitor is getting older. Take me forinstance, I became seriously interested in kit cars when I was 18 or 19. I have maintained an interest ever since and vistied many many shows before becoming involved in the industry. I am now 53. We need too attract 18 year olds. Now that is not going to be easy when todays young appear to be more interested in a virtual world, AKA the Playstation generation. But that cannot apply to all 18-30 year olds can it.
So how do we attract new blood?
rdodger said:
The body conversions seem to be attracting new blood as do the more track based models.
It's funny really as youngsters pay a lot less insurance on a kit car than a Corsa.
A move to new donor cars like the MX5 can only help as there a lot of younger people out there with those quietly whatching them rot away while the blow thousands on Turbos and superchargers.
Making more affordable kits has to be the way forward (or back?)single donor, cheap to build, lots of fun!
Perhaps someone should be making low cost, lightweight MX5 based kits with a track bias? What do you think Stuart?
Finally a friend of mine builds kitcars for a living. He has been trying for a couple of years to find a youngster to train up. No one either wants to work or those that do can't even drill a hole. I bet they are good on GT5 though.
It's funny really as youngsters pay a lot less insurance on a kit car than a Corsa.
A move to new donor cars like the MX5 can only help as there a lot of younger people out there with those quietly whatching them rot away while the blow thousands on Turbos and superchargers.
Making more affordable kits has to be the way forward (or back?)single donor, cheap to build, lots of fun!
Perhaps someone should be making low cost, lightweight MX5 based kits with a track bias? What do you think Stuart?
Finally a friend of mine builds kitcars for a living. He has been trying for a couple of years to find a youngster to train up. No one either wants to work or those that do can't even drill a hole. I bet they are good on GT5 though.
qdos said:
Kit cars to the majority of us posting here make sense, that's because we've owned them and or built them, some of us even manufacture them too. We trundle off to the shows year in year out and we see the same people wandering round looking at the cars in the halls and some venture out to the owners lots out in the car park or grass verges.
However as we've all noted things aren't changing and the only thing that is really is the footfall. It's getting smaller each time. Absolutely everyone would like to see that footfall change in the other direction and get it growing rather than shrinking.
Now I dare say a fair few of you reading this go to other shows too and I'll bet we've each been to shows that have had bigger attendances than some of the kit car shows. I've recently been to one that was all about the A Series and I won't hesitate to say that it had a bigger and better attendance than it appears that Stafford had but this could be said also about some of the other shows too which have been organised by people other than Den so it's not really Den's fault here at all that our shows seem to be shrinking. Stuart is absolutely right that we see the same old people year in year out, but Kit Cars are not like production cars. There's very few buyers who go into the showroom and place an order for a red one in the Sport trim and expect delivery in 6 weeks. Kits are much more a leisure/lifestyle thing and most people savour the whole process often taking up to 3 years to make any progress.
What is sadly also true is that the younger generations don't seem to be doing much other than playing on their X-boxes and maybe at best venturing into putting chrome effect rear lights onto the Saxo but that's mostly the fault of the Nanny State and the academics telling our children that they will all grow up being either Slick city traders or at worst X-Factor superstars and that engineering was a dirty filthy job that the Victorians enforced on the down trodden masses before the dawning of the electronic age.
So what we have to do is change this perception and show that Kit Cars are exciting, fun and something that anyone can take part in. Sadly hiring a community centre doesn't cut the mustard these days, it may have once upon a time (my first kit car show I went to was at a cricket ground in a rural Surrey village it worked for me but that was over 30 years ago!)
We're all going to have to get much more proactive and get together to see things change and pull in the same direction rather than just moan and rubbish the people who have at least been trying to promote the Kit Car scene. If that includes A Series engines then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, what we want is simply shows that are better attended and more enticing to everyone. We're in a recession so we're just going to need to work harder together and be more flexible if we're going to make a success of showing our cars.
However as we've all noted things aren't changing and the only thing that is really is the footfall. It's getting smaller each time. Absolutely everyone would like to see that footfall change in the other direction and get it growing rather than shrinking.
Now I dare say a fair few of you reading this go to other shows too and I'll bet we've each been to shows that have had bigger attendances than some of the kit car shows. I've recently been to one that was all about the A Series and I won't hesitate to say that it had a bigger and better attendance than it appears that Stafford had but this could be said also about some of the other shows too which have been organised by people other than Den so it's not really Den's fault here at all that our shows seem to be shrinking. Stuart is absolutely right that we see the same old people year in year out, but Kit Cars are not like production cars. There's very few buyers who go into the showroom and place an order for a red one in the Sport trim and expect delivery in 6 weeks. Kits are much more a leisure/lifestyle thing and most people savour the whole process often taking up to 3 years to make any progress.
What is sadly also true is that the younger generations don't seem to be doing much other than playing on their X-boxes and maybe at best venturing into putting chrome effect rear lights onto the Saxo but that's mostly the fault of the Nanny State and the academics telling our children that they will all grow up being either Slick city traders or at worst X-Factor superstars and that engineering was a dirty filthy job that the Victorians enforced on the down trodden masses before the dawning of the electronic age.
So what we have to do is change this perception and show that Kit Cars are exciting, fun and something that anyone can take part in. Sadly hiring a community centre doesn't cut the mustard these days, it may have once upon a time (my first kit car show I went to was at a cricket ground in a rural Surrey village it worked for me but that was over 30 years ago!)
We're all going to have to get much more proactive and get together to see things change and pull in the same direction rather than just moan and rubbish the people who have at least been trying to promote the Kit Car scene. If that includes A Series engines then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, what we want is simply shows that are better attended and more enticing to everyone. We're in a recession so we're just going to need to work harder together and be more flexible if we're going to make a success of showing our cars.
Steffan said:
You may well be right I would be delighted to be wrong.
Unfortunately many years in Accountancy suggest to me that swimming against the tide is not good. What is needed is a new product that is significantly better than the product it replaces.
A positive attitude is worth a great deal.
If you think you can make things work then good luck to you. You know your market and you produce an excellent product. Keep it up.
I am absolutely positive that the right new product could generate a huge resurgence in the kit car game. My concern is not to be defeatist but to recognise the extent to which the Kit Car industry has become bogged down in clones of old designs.
There are exceptions as you suggest. But I feel there should be a different league of innovation and new ideas in the industry as a whole.
I am in no sense concerned that the right product could not effect a complete recovery in Kit Car interest. But we must have the right product.
We must not forget that the last real financial difficulty (not the R word) produced cars from two manufacturers that saved both leading car companies in the UK.
William Morris designed the Morris Eight and Herbert Austin designed the Austin Seven. And both cars were absolute winners, both cars made their designers millionaires and both cars set the motoring scene for the next thirty years. We must take a leaf out of their books! I
n the midst of the last big financial difficulty they found salvation in new different designs. That is what the Kit Car Industry needs.
These were radical but simple designs which created mass market motoring in the UK. They left the other manufacturers standing still.
If we could find a new design for Kit Cars that incorporated a new approach with a realistic build cost, I am certain the interest in Kit Cars could be regenerated very effectively. I have not the slightest doubt that the Kit Car scene could actually exceed its old peaks IF we can find the right product.
But I am totally unconvinced that this kind of vibrant and expanding market can be nurtured with the old tired clones that are all too frequently offered to the public at the present time.
Many manufacturers are still using Sierra components! In 2011? Please!
I am all for being positive and expansionist. But in the right way.
New designs are what we need, with a new take on Kit Cars and build costs.
Then we can expect to see the whole track ans show scene recovering.
Unfortunately many years in Accountancy suggest to me that swimming against the tide is not good. What is needed is a new product that is significantly better than the product it replaces.
A positive attitude is worth a great deal.
If you think you can make things work then good luck to you. You know your market and you produce an excellent product. Keep it up.
I am absolutely positive that the right new product could generate a huge resurgence in the kit car game. My concern is not to be defeatist but to recognise the extent to which the Kit Car industry has become bogged down in clones of old designs.
There are exceptions as you suggest. But I feel there should be a different league of innovation and new ideas in the industry as a whole.
I am in no sense concerned that the right product could not effect a complete recovery in Kit Car interest. But we must have the right product.
We must not forget that the last real financial difficulty (not the R word) produced cars from two manufacturers that saved both leading car companies in the UK.
William Morris designed the Morris Eight and Herbert Austin designed the Austin Seven. And both cars were absolute winners, both cars made their designers millionaires and both cars set the motoring scene for the next thirty years. We must take a leaf out of their books! I
n the midst of the last big financial difficulty they found salvation in new different designs. That is what the Kit Car Industry needs.
These were radical but simple designs which created mass market motoring in the UK. They left the other manufacturers standing still.
If we could find a new design for Kit Cars that incorporated a new approach with a realistic build cost, I am certain the interest in Kit Cars could be regenerated very effectively. I have not the slightest doubt that the Kit Car scene could actually exceed its old peaks IF we can find the right product.
But I am totally unconvinced that this kind of vibrant and expanding market can be nurtured with the old tired clones that are all too frequently offered to the public at the present time.
Many manufacturers are still using Sierra components! In 2011? Please!
I am all for being positive and expansionist. But in the right way.
New designs are what we need, with a new take on Kit Cars and build costs.
Then we can expect to see the whole track ans show scene recovering.
qdos said:
I'm very much with Stiggy on this again with his last comments and I'd also like to say Kit Cars need not be luxury items either. I drove my first for over 11 years pretty much every day of those 11 years too, it's only as I've got older that my kits have become spare fun cars.
I also agree re the export side too and once again can back that up also with another instance where we've managed to enter believe it or not the Indian market. No less than a mention on the front cover of Top Gear India magazine with article inside plus a full 5 pages in another of their leading magazines also. So no the Kit Car industry is anything but dead here in the UK but we do need to get our act together and make a much better presentation of ourselves.
We Brits seem to be damned good at rubbishing ourselves and it does get rather weary after a time. But hey I'm not one to give in to that and we're busy re-engineering things so that we can answer the critics who want to have a pop at the home market and we'll give them what they say they want instead of curling up to die. Lots of exciting things more to come from our stables here and no one can for a moment say MEV are idle or not with the times either. I'm sure that several of the other Kit manufacturers have plenty of things coming along too so let's get positive and see what we can do to help the show side of things move forward too. I've been looking into some things with colleagues here so don't write things off before we've even seen the back of this year's seasons. Kit Car shows are not going to stop, that's for sure!
I also agree re the export side too and once again can back that up also with another instance where we've managed to enter believe it or not the Indian market. No less than a mention on the front cover of Top Gear India magazine with article inside plus a full 5 pages in another of their leading magazines also. So no the Kit Car industry is anything but dead here in the UK but we do need to get our act together and make a much better presentation of ourselves.
We Brits seem to be damned good at rubbishing ourselves and it does get rather weary after a time. But hey I'm not one to give in to that and we're busy re-engineering things so that we can answer the critics who want to have a pop at the home market and we'll give them what they say they want instead of curling up to die. Lots of exciting things more to come from our stables here and no one can for a moment say MEV are idle or not with the times either. I'm sure that several of the other Kit manufacturers have plenty of things coming along too so let's get positive and see what we can do to help the show side of things move forward too. I've been looking into some things with colleagues here so don't write things off before we've even seen the back of this year's seasons. Kit Car shows are not going to stop, that's for sure!
Kartman said:
Just to throw in my two pence worth, as someone who has lurked around the industry for a while....
Shows as we know them are struggling in most sectors, not just kit cars. I have first hand experience of the NEC bike show which has been suffering falling attendances since 2002ish. The reason? Internet and ebay. Why pay the fuel costs of going to the NEC, get mugged for parking, £20/each to get in, £8 for a plastic burger, another £10 or so to see the live shows, when you can just sit at home and get the same bargains via a few clicks and they arrive on your door a few days later. One of the main reasons for going to that show was to bag a few bargains, but now why spend around £100 to get them?
To a large extent the same affects the kit car shows. In the 'old days' we used to head for the shows with a long list of parts to get because you could not get them anywhere else....now we can. It was noticeable at Stoneleigh this year the accessories hall had much wider aisles and many more stalls selling RC helicopters and the like - I can remember when you could hardly move in there.
Stiggy has done a fantastic job with the new models he has produced, and I agree with him we need a younger audience, but most of the new generation want everything right now....they don't want to beaver away in the garage for a year to build a car. In fact many are not keen on getting their hands dirty. But also the overall the cost of development of complete new chassis/body kits will prevent many seeing the light of day. If it costs £15,000 to develop a kit (which is a bargain...) you need to sell 30 kits with a £500 R&D factor in each one before you start getting anywhere. Then people complain the kit is too expensive.....
I think shows need to involve those attending more....simple things like prizes for longest distance travelled, concours, etc, could be tried. Making it a weekend event with a band/bar would bring a focal point and get people to make a weekend of it.
I haven't got all the answers but just a few idea's & opinions.....
Shows as we know them are struggling in most sectors, not just kit cars. I have first hand experience of the NEC bike show which has been suffering falling attendances since 2002ish. The reason? Internet and ebay. Why pay the fuel costs of going to the NEC, get mugged for parking, £20/each to get in, £8 for a plastic burger, another £10 or so to see the live shows, when you can just sit at home and get the same bargains via a few clicks and they arrive on your door a few days later. One of the main reasons for going to that show was to bag a few bargains, but now why spend around £100 to get them?
To a large extent the same affects the kit car shows. In the 'old days' we used to head for the shows with a long list of parts to get because you could not get them anywhere else....now we can. It was noticeable at Stoneleigh this year the accessories hall had much wider aisles and many more stalls selling RC helicopters and the like - I can remember when you could hardly move in there.
Stiggy has done a fantastic job with the new models he has produced, and I agree with him we need a younger audience, but most of the new generation want everything right now....they don't want to beaver away in the garage for a year to build a car. In fact many are not keen on getting their hands dirty. But also the overall the cost of development of complete new chassis/body kits will prevent many seeing the light of day. If it costs £15,000 to develop a kit (which is a bargain...) you need to sell 30 kits with a £500 R&D factor in each one before you start getting anywhere. Then people complain the kit is too expensive.....
I think shows need to involve those attending more....simple things like prizes for longest distance travelled, concours, etc, could be tried. Making it a weekend event with a band/bar would bring a focal point and get people to make a weekend of it.
I haven't got all the answers but just a few idea's & opinions.....
Steffan said:
YES the advent of the WWW and all the information available at the touch of a button in colour straight away must have had a deleterious effect on the need for information element of shows.
I was talking to the old Dutton man, Tim Dutton Woolley on his Amphibious stand at a recent Kit Car show and he reminded me that in the 1970's he was selling info packs on his Dutton Cars for a pound a pop and selling over 3000 a year.
Now in the early 70' £3000 was very good money! In itself!
There was simply no way to get the info then except by post and by paying for it.
That is undoubtedly one of the reasons Kit Car shows are down.
Real research can be done on the web without driving anywhere at all.
Whichever way you look at it this is a thorny problem.
I still believe new radical designs are the way forward.
But this is a really competitive world.
Perhaps someone can come up with an idea which floors us all.
I was talking to the old Dutton man, Tim Dutton Woolley on his Amphibious stand at a recent Kit Car show and he reminded me that in the 1970's he was selling info packs on his Dutton Cars for a pound a pop and selling over 3000 a year.
Now in the early 70' £3000 was very good money! In itself!
There was simply no way to get the info then except by post and by paying for it.
That is undoubtedly one of the reasons Kit Car shows are down.
Real research can be done on the web without driving anywhere at all.
Whichever way you look at it this is a thorny problem.
I still believe new radical designs are the way forward.
But this is a really competitive world.
Perhaps someone can come up with an idea which floors us all.
Not to lose more of the interesting comments made on the the Stafford show thread, here are a few more .
gingerpaul said:
I've just noticed this thread and thought I'd put the things that attract me to shows, and has made me visit Stoneleigh every year from when my kit was completed.
-Catching up with people from the owners club/forum. A lot go to Stoneleigh
-To see what this years new developments are. More BMW based cars this year for example
-To have a look around the parts and tools. I can't remember a year I didn't spend £100 or more on tools and parts
One thing I've noticed is that kit car shows seem to be hugely influenced by the weather. That goes for open days, meets or shows. The first year my car was on the road I went to the DJ Sportscars open day and as it was raining I was one of 6 other cars there. On a good day there are at least 50 with lots of visitors on top.
With regards to new blood I bought my chassis when I was 21 and finished it when I was 25. I wanted a V8 and something slightly unique but easy to build. The choices were Westfield or Dax and I went with Dax because I preferred the way it looked and that each car was built slightly differently from the next by the builders.
It was great because I viewed it almost as finance for a sports car as I could buy the bits in stages. If I had £10k sitting in the bank and was looking for a car the options mentioned would be attractive. Elises, S2000s, Z3Ms, MX5s. Lots of choice now that weren't there before. I could see people going for the easier option rather than building their dream now.
Does anyone think that the garages provided in modern builds are perhaps partly to blame? The small single garages (if they're lucky enough to have one at all) that most first time house buyers get in their new builds aren't exactly conducive to car building, or any maintenance for that matter. I'm lucky where I am with having space but I can see it being an issue for some of my friends who might otherwise be tempted.
-Catching up with people from the owners club/forum. A lot go to Stoneleigh
-To see what this years new developments are. More BMW based cars this year for example
-To have a look around the parts and tools. I can't remember a year I didn't spend £100 or more on tools and parts
One thing I've noticed is that kit car shows seem to be hugely influenced by the weather. That goes for open days, meets or shows. The first year my car was on the road I went to the DJ Sportscars open day and as it was raining I was one of 6 other cars there. On a good day there are at least 50 with lots of visitors on top.
With regards to new blood I bought my chassis when I was 21 and finished it when I was 25. I wanted a V8 and something slightly unique but easy to build. The choices were Westfield or Dax and I went with Dax because I preferred the way it looked and that each car was built slightly differently from the next by the builders.
It was great because I viewed it almost as finance for a sports car as I could buy the bits in stages. If I had £10k sitting in the bank and was looking for a car the options mentioned would be attractive. Elises, S2000s, Z3Ms, MX5s. Lots of choice now that weren't there before. I could see people going for the easier option rather than building their dream now.
Does anyone think that the garages provided in modern builds are perhaps partly to blame? The small single garages (if they're lucky enough to have one at all) that most first time house buyers get in their new builds aren't exactly conducive to car building, or any maintenance for that matter. I'm lucky where I am with having space but I can see it being an issue for some of my friends who might otherwise be tempted.
Steffan said:
Good example of how technology is masking travelling to look at cars less necessary see:
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/_virtueller_Rundgan...
The sheer quality and immediacy is remarkable.
With a bit of forethought Kit Car Makers could be offering their products in the same way.
Sign of the times this would have been impossible less than 10 years ago.
Now its the future.
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/_virtueller_Rundgan...
The sheer quality and immediacy is remarkable.
With a bit of forethought Kit Car Makers could be offering their products in the same way.
Sign of the times this would have been impossible less than 10 years ago.
Now its the future.
qdos said:
Very good point Paul. We've got a couple of customer builds going on currently, there's a growing demand for this but I was not thinking about the lack of space at the customer's end, which I should have really as I'd previously built one of my own kits in my back garden under a makeshift shelter I'd constructed out of warehouse racking.
Regards to Steffan's comments on the web and how fancy bling bling 360 panoramics of car show rooms is taking over for the arm chair customers well I have to say that sorry I totally disagree. Kit Cars are all about hands on. You build it yourself and they drive totally differently to mass produced production cars. Now our main car is a track day car admittedly so the best place to demonstrate that is out on a track. We have got videos of this online but I can absolutely assure you that watching a video of us going round Bruntingthorpe at 1 minute 20 is nothing like experiencing going into a corner from a 140+mph straight. Anyone who's ridden in a Seven will know it's all about the wind in the hair and grit in the teeth and you aint going to get that from a video monitor.
No I totally disagree, the future is about getting people to touch and feel our cars and I'm afraid that doesn't really happen when they are parked up on a carpet in a shed.
Regards to Steffan's comments on the web and how fancy bling bling 360 panoramics of car show rooms is taking over for the arm chair customers well I have to say that sorry I totally disagree. Kit Cars are all about hands on. You build it yourself and they drive totally differently to mass produced production cars. Now our main car is a track day car admittedly so the best place to demonstrate that is out on a track. We have got videos of this online but I can absolutely assure you that watching a video of us going round Bruntingthorpe at 1 minute 20 is nothing like experiencing going into a corner from a 140+mph straight. Anyone who's ridden in a Seven will know it's all about the wind in the hair and grit in the teeth and you aint going to get that from a video monitor.
No I totally disagree, the future is about getting people to touch and feel our cars and I'm afraid that doesn't really happen when they are parked up on a carpet in a shed.
Edited by qdos on Tuesday 4th October 08:45[/footnote]
[footnote]Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 4th October 12:31Ask the majority of non kit car owners what a kit car is and they tend to say 7 unless they have a neighbour or friend who has built a Cobra. Look at adverts for the shows and most kit car magazine covers and you will see a 60's replica. The visitors to the kit shows will expect to see 60's clones. The average age group of the show visitors is getting older.
Do enough younger people who we need to attract love 60's replicas?
I love 60's cars as I can remember the "prisoner", why do younger people like them?
There are plenty of younger folk with VW camper vans so are 60's cars still cool?
What sort of alternative would attract the new blood?
EXO's, and Ferrari' are catered for, what other direction might work?
Would we attract new customers if an EV was offered as a kit?
What car could be cloned as a kit and sell well?
Would a micro car kit have demand in these high fuel price times?
Finally I have always felt there is a lack of life style commonalities.
Take Harley owners forinstance and they all seem to drink Bud, listen to Rock music, wear black leather and if they smoke it has to be Marlboro.
What can we introduce to bond kit owners, clothing, music, drinks?
What about a "BRITISH CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOW" with action on wheels?
Do enough younger people who we need to attract love 60's replicas?
I love 60's cars as I can remember the "prisoner", why do younger people like them?
There are plenty of younger folk with VW camper vans so are 60's cars still cool?
What sort of alternative would attract the new blood?
EXO's, and Ferrari' are catered for, what other direction might work?
Would we attract new customers if an EV was offered as a kit?
What car could be cloned as a kit and sell well?
Would a micro car kit have demand in these high fuel price times?
Finally I have always felt there is a lack of life style commonalities.
Take Harley owners forinstance and they all seem to drink Bud, listen to Rock music, wear black leather and if they smoke it has to be Marlboro.
What can we introduce to bond kit owners, clothing, music, drinks?
What about a "BRITISH CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOW" with action on wheels?
Edited by Stuart Mills on Tuesday 4th October 11:23
I'm going to pick up from a few things Stuart's raised above here.
Most of us here chatting on this forum are um errr starting to git in that mid life zone. If we talk amongst ourselves we'll just wind up getting what we think we want. Sadly though we're on the wrong boat these days and time has moved on.
What is happening these days is chrome rear lights, huge boom booom boom speakers and those little LEDs.
If we are to get Kit Cars growing again this is the Lifestyle that we need to introduce our cars to. 60s 7s and Cobras are not where it's at any more for young blood. If you want to have a look at what is happening and see where you will find 16,000 show goers and not 1,600 you need to be looking at shows like TRAX and look at the sort of cars they drive there. It's all Hondas Toyotas and Corsas with the chromed rear lights and maybe a smoothed out bumper, plus a bonnet that's tilted so that the back edge has a gap to let out the hot air from the engine bay. Think Fiat Abarth and you're along the right lines. Today it's all LEDs and NOS
How do I know, well I have been going to these shows and taking part in them with a club we're part of which includes Lambos, Ferraris and Nobles plus of course the Deronda too. Where it's at though is the hatch backs and the drifting. These are the people that we need to be introducing to the kit car world and who we need to also be listening to. Not easy I can tell you when all you can hear is the Booom Booom Booom
Here's the gallery so you can get a quick idea, oh and we're in at least 4 photos on there if you look carefully http://www.traxshows.co.uk/2011/09/06/gallery_2011...
Most of us here chatting on this forum are um errr starting to git in that mid life zone. If we talk amongst ourselves we'll just wind up getting what we think we want. Sadly though we're on the wrong boat these days and time has moved on.
What is happening these days is chrome rear lights, huge boom booom boom speakers and those little LEDs.
If we are to get Kit Cars growing again this is the Lifestyle that we need to introduce our cars to. 60s 7s and Cobras are not where it's at any more for young blood. If you want to have a look at what is happening and see where you will find 16,000 show goers and not 1,600 you need to be looking at shows like TRAX and look at the sort of cars they drive there. It's all Hondas Toyotas and Corsas with the chromed rear lights and maybe a smoothed out bumper, plus a bonnet that's tilted so that the back edge has a gap to let out the hot air from the engine bay. Think Fiat Abarth and you're along the right lines. Today it's all LEDs and NOS
How do I know, well I have been going to these shows and taking part in them with a club we're part of which includes Lambos, Ferraris and Nobles plus of course the Deronda too. Where it's at though is the hatch backs and the drifting. These are the people that we need to be introducing to the kit car world and who we need to also be listening to. Not easy I can tell you when all you can hear is the Booom Booom Booom
Here's the gallery so you can get a quick idea, oh and we're in at least 4 photos on there if you look carefully http://www.traxshows.co.uk/2011/09/06/gallery_2011...
A very good idea if I may say so: I was thinking myself that this subject was closely allied to the Stafford show discussion.
On a positive note, reflecting the comments on my doom and gloom approach, natural to most Accountants, does anyone else agree with me that the real future of development of Kit Cars should try to incorporate Ecological strengths with the mean machines we are trying to create.
I really think the ultra light efficient two seater three wheel car driven by a Motorcycle engine and drive train with super light aerodynamic bodywork has real potential.
50 years ago Berkeley gave an indication of what could be achieved but were let down by the poor mehanics of the 1950's.
I do not want a Berkeley clone but surely there is a designer who could embrace the idea into a new polished format.
On a positive note, reflecting the comments on my doom and gloom approach, natural to most Accountants, does anyone else agree with me that the real future of development of Kit Cars should try to incorporate Ecological strengths with the mean machines we are trying to create.
I really think the ultra light efficient two seater three wheel car driven by a Motorcycle engine and drive train with super light aerodynamic bodywork has real potential.
50 years ago Berkeley gave an indication of what could be achieved but were let down by the poor mehanics of the 1950's.
I do not want a Berkeley clone but surely there is a designer who could embrace the idea into a new polished format.
Steffan said:
I really think the ultra light efficient two seater three wheel car driven by a Motorcycle engine and drive train with super light aerodynamic bodywork has real potential.
50 years ago Berkeley gave an indication of what could be achieved but were let down by the poor mehanics of the 1950's.
I do not want a Berkeley clone but surely there is a designer who could embrace the idea into a new polished format.
I think there is....and someone is already at the prototype stage with an electric version on something along those lines:50 years ago Berkeley gave an indication of what could be achieved but were let down by the poor mehanics of the 1950's.
I do not want a Berkeley clone but surely there is a designer who could embrace the idea into a new polished format.
http://www.t3motion.com/gt3_consumer.html
and a video of the chassis and car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OKBB13uRq8&fea...
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=NoZ3ymHfWno&feature=player_embedded
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 4th October 12:45
Stuart Mills said:
Would we attract new customers if an EV was offered as a kit?
What car could be cloned as a kit and sell well?
Would a micro car kit have demand in these high fuel price times?
Finally I have always felt there is a lack of life style commonalities.
Take Harley owners forinstance and they all seem to drink Bud, listen to Rock music, wear black leather and if they smoke it has to be Marlboro.
What can we introduce to bond kit owners, clothing, music, drinks?
What about a "BRITISH CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOW" with action on wheels?
I think all of those idea could be put to work, but really think that the idea of a British Car manufacturers Show is a very good one.What car could be cloned as a kit and sell well?
Would a micro car kit have demand in these high fuel price times?
Finally I have always felt there is a lack of life style commonalities.
Take Harley owners forinstance and they all seem to drink Bud, listen to Rock music, wear black leather and if they smoke it has to be Marlboro.
What can we introduce to bond kit owners, clothing, music, drinks?
What about a "BRITISH CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOW" with action on wheels?
Edited by Stuart Mills on Tuesday 4th October 11:23
I see it from my experience in mainland Europe and in particular Italy, that the aura of a British Sportscar is still there and the UK kitcar industry would benefit greatly if it did some marketing in Europe, it created a positive and modern image, but most importantly it needs to lobby itself as a group and a Brand.
It's funny how steoreotypes of British sportscars are still present when you talk about them to a European or Italian, the first thing that springs to mind are Jaguar E-types, MG and Morgans, Lotus, Panther, especially with guys in the 40-60yrs. age group.
I also think that the industry doesn't push enough through the classic automotive media the quality of the new products and younger enthusiasts don't even know about it.
I really think that the people that work in the kitcar industry should create an association that lobbies hard in Europe, that pushes forward the positive tratits of this industry and makes sure that legislation is passed all over Europe to register kits.
Some countries in Europe have already done so( Netherlands, Sweden...), but more could open up to kitcars and this would mean extra sales in a bigger market.
Remember that 738 milion people are living in Europe....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
I'm sure that quite a few of them would consider buying kitcars if they had the opportunity to register them as you do in the UK, or have the opportunity to do so legally...
I remember that years ago there was an association , but can't rememeber the name?
In reference to new markets and demographics:
I think that there are so many niches that haven't been catered for and can think of a few more than those mentioned, but if you can't open a bigger market like Europe to the sales of kitcars, then you will only be limited to a smaller and exhisting market, with fewer sales and with very little return onfuture sales.
The benefit of opening a bigger market like Europe, using associations or lobbying groups, would benefit the industry greatly in the long run.
Also other markets like India,Russia, China,South Africa Australia might become bigger or potential new markets in the future.
Diversifying like Qdos mentioned is a great idea and did notice quite a few kitcars in the images( K1 Attack, Zolfe, Westfield, Deronda, Ultima...) and believe that it could become a very interesting venue in the future, if a few manufaturers do some research an what these youngsters want from their potential new sportscar.
I agree with Italo and we've been talking about this sort of thing for a while now at a number of the shows with other manufacturers. Exeter is coming up shortly so if any other manufacturers are interested in getting together to work together on promoting and form some sort of association or other to represent the kit industry on all matter of issues that arise then we'd be very happy to chat with you all. Come and see us at Exeter with the Deronda. Speak to either me Kelvin, or Alistair.
"I remember that years ago there was an association , but can't rememeber the name?"
Are you thinking of ACE - Association of Car Enthusiasts? http://www.the-ace.org.uk/ I carry a link on my website to theirs as I think all other manufacturers should. I'm not sure how large the organisation is, but it must surely be a starting point?
Re opening up kitcars to Europe, that is going to take some serious lobbying, it is almost impossible to get a (recently built) kitcar registered in Germany & not much different in France, not sure about the rest of the EU, but suspect it's likely to be similar in all of the established countries like Spain, Italy, Belgium etc.Of course theory says that if it is road legal & registered in the UK it can be legally personally impoprted for use in any other EU country, unfortunately that's not quite how it works in practice!
Are you thinking of ACE - Association of Car Enthusiasts? http://www.the-ace.org.uk/ I carry a link on my website to theirs as I think all other manufacturers should. I'm not sure how large the organisation is, but it must surely be a starting point?
Re opening up kitcars to Europe, that is going to take some serious lobbying, it is almost impossible to get a (recently built) kitcar registered in Germany & not much different in France, not sure about the rest of the EU, but suspect it's likely to be similar in all of the established countries like Spain, Italy, Belgium etc.Of course theory says that if it is road legal & registered in the UK it can be legally personally impoprted for use in any other EU country, unfortunately that's not quite how it works in practice!
A few more.
ceebmoj said:
Many varied and interesting points.
There has been talk of the average age of people at shows raising. I would be interested in knowing about the % of woman attending. Have the manufacturers ever tried marketing to woman? I have attended shows over the years with a number of feamail friends some interested in building a kit some not. Most could have been sold a kit or car had they felt better received. Some have gone to car modification because that felt that it was a more manageable project.
There has been talk of the average age of people at shows raising. I would be interested in knowing about the % of woman attending. Have the manufacturers ever tried marketing to woman? I have attended shows over the years with a number of feamail friends some interested in building a kit some not. Most could have been sold a kit or car had they felt better received. Some have gone to car modification because that felt that it was a more manageable project.
Furyblade_Lee said:
I think one of the main underlying issues in the industry is the younger generation just don't want to build a car full stop.
I regard myself as young, despite bring 38 and built my first kit aged 30. I had wanted to do one since I was about 25'ish, but did not have the space or financial means until 30. Otherwise I would have built one sooner.
However I am well aware there are (were at least before the credit crisis) thousands of 20 years olds with the financial means to blow £10+k on chavving up Corsas and Saxos , but why do they not want to build a kitcar??
I think several reasons:
1) Firstly and most importantly when I grew up I used to play with Lego, Meccano, Scalextric ( great for learning basic "tuning", Airfix and just plain old making and inventing new paper aeroplanes from A4. Kids hardly do that now, they just play computer games so have never even put together a few plastic bricks let alone fancy bolting £10k of "kitcar" together. Chavving up a hatchback just involves handing over cash.
Secondly, my first car was a mini, it always had something to fiddle with or improve , and I raced them when i was 15 so that ignited a desire to take things
further. Modern cars don't give that flexibility, and always seem to start on a cold morning so they are not forced to get the toolkit out
Thirdly there are no kitcar meets where get their baps out for a wheelspin and a bag of chips, happens every week near Ikea, Croydon.
So, without being a doom merchant, coupled with rising costs of making kits and legislation making it more difficult, I fear by and large the masses now under 30 will NEVER want to build their own cars and that is a very sad end to a very great and eccentric British pastime...
UNLESS we ( and I mean everyone involved in building, selling and driving kitcars ) can interest the younger generations. I have personally taken at least 8 kitcar virgins for a ride in one of
my kits and they have gone on to purchase one, people who would never considered one before. 2 have built, 6 have purchased completed cars. Pro-active I believe is the way forward, shed any image of bearded men nailing bits of old saloon car into a fibreglass shell. Needs to be high-tech, loud, sexy, fun, fast, affordable, desirable, modern, safe, economical, thrilling, enjoyable and accessible. No more clubstands with 3 cars and a picnic table behind them, bonnets up with rusty components on show. It needs to be 2012, not 1980.
Maybe society as a whole has changed so much that even traditional hobbies like fishing are on the way out, and an expensive hobby like ours will be hit
even harder. Maybe we will have to just accept it, especially as an Elise can be had for just over £5k which would just about buy you a basic pile of kit parts nowadays. BUT I don't believe it, there are kids and teenagers out there who nature will naturally select to be inquisitive, adventurous and mechanically adept, they just need to be steered in the right direction. I think things do need to change, Stiggy has the right idea that's for sure, and thanks to costs and legislation
panel conversions needing no IVA may
be the bulk sellers in the future. I am sure there is more than one manufacturer that has sold no kits at all in the last 12 months, and some that have sold many... The industry needs to react quickly if their core business is the cars themselves.
I regard myself as young, despite bring 38 and built my first kit aged 30. I had wanted to do one since I was about 25'ish, but did not have the space or financial means until 30. Otherwise I would have built one sooner.
However I am well aware there are (were at least before the credit crisis) thousands of 20 years olds with the financial means to blow £10+k on chavving up Corsas and Saxos , but why do they not want to build a kitcar??
I think several reasons:
1) Firstly and most importantly when I grew up I used to play with Lego, Meccano, Scalextric ( great for learning basic "tuning", Airfix and just plain old making and inventing new paper aeroplanes from A4. Kids hardly do that now, they just play computer games so have never even put together a few plastic bricks let alone fancy bolting £10k of "kitcar" together. Chavving up a hatchback just involves handing over cash.
Secondly, my first car was a mini, it always had something to fiddle with or improve , and I raced them when i was 15 so that ignited a desire to take things
further. Modern cars don't give that flexibility, and always seem to start on a cold morning so they are not forced to get the toolkit out
Thirdly there are no kitcar meets where get their baps out for a wheelspin and a bag of chips, happens every week near Ikea, Croydon.
So, without being a doom merchant, coupled with rising costs of making kits and legislation making it more difficult, I fear by and large the masses now under 30 will NEVER want to build their own cars and that is a very sad end to a very great and eccentric British pastime...
UNLESS we ( and I mean everyone involved in building, selling and driving kitcars ) can interest the younger generations. I have personally taken at least 8 kitcar virgins for a ride in one of
my kits and they have gone on to purchase one, people who would never considered one before. 2 have built, 6 have purchased completed cars. Pro-active I believe is the way forward, shed any image of bearded men nailing bits of old saloon car into a fibreglass shell. Needs to be high-tech, loud, sexy, fun, fast, affordable, desirable, modern, safe, economical, thrilling, enjoyable and accessible. No more clubstands with 3 cars and a picnic table behind them, bonnets up with rusty components on show. It needs to be 2012, not 1980.
Maybe society as a whole has changed so much that even traditional hobbies like fishing are on the way out, and an expensive hobby like ours will be hit
even harder. Maybe we will have to just accept it, especially as an Elise can be had for just over £5k which would just about buy you a basic pile of kit parts nowadays. BUT I don't believe it, there are kids and teenagers out there who nature will naturally select to be inquisitive, adventurous and mechanically adept, they just need to be steered in the right direction. I think things do need to change, Stiggy has the right idea that's for sure, and thanks to costs and legislation
panel conversions needing no IVA may
be the bulk sellers in the future. I am sure there is more than one manufacturer that has sold no kits at all in the last 12 months, and some that have sold many... The industry needs to react quickly if their core business is the cars themselves.
It certainly is Russ, the custom car guys and bikers can get themselves organised into action groups so it's long since time we Kit Car folk did the same.
We'd be very happy to get to speak to anyone any time and Exeter would be a good point to have a chat so anyone is welcome to come over and speak with us on our stand at the show.
We'd be very happy to get to speak to anyone any time and Exeter would be a good point to have a chat so anyone is welcome to come over and speak with us on our stand at the show.
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