The British Kit Car Industry . Research Paper
Discussion
"I wonder how many Kitcar makers there are now?" Substantially less than there were a year ago & substantially more than there will be next year!
An unfortunate fact but it will be the same in most manufacturing industries, however those that survive & prosper will be those that can think ahead & perhaps occupy a niche market. I'd happily make a bet that MEV (or derivatives!)MNR, AGM sportscars & Furore Cars will all still be there! (from personal knowledge)anyone like to take bets on any others!
An unfortunate fact but it will be the same in most manufacturing industries, however those that survive & prosper will be those that can think ahead & perhaps occupy a niche market. I'd happily make a bet that MEV (or derivatives!)MNR, AGM sportscars & Furore Cars will all still be there! (from personal knowledge)anyone like to take bets on any others!
Russ Bost said:
"I wonder how many Kitcar makers there are now?" Substantially less than there were a year ago & substantially more than there will be next year!
!
What is your guesstimate, 30% less than last year or more ? !
Do you think that the kitcar industry is restructuring ? what niches in your opinion will survive ?
Essentially much of Kit Car Manufacturing is Hobby Trading. The essential motivation of setting up the business is the desire to make a particular car, which frequently then becomes an obsession.
There are success stories like Sylva with Jeremy Phillips at the helm which produced some very good cars. Now retired of course.
But many of the Kit Car manufacturers have actually been in a labour of love and not actually motivated primarily by money.
In my career as an Accountant I have advised a number of prospective Kit Car makers to seriously think again because this is a very specialist market and a luxury market at that. I have also helped a number to get going and prosper to a greater or lesser extent.
If you are only interested in money automobiles are a bad business to be in particularly nowadays. Generally the few who succeed do so because of immense personal efforts and not a lot of financial return.
The sheer number of Kit Car projects offering moulds, a running prototype and right of manufacture appearing weekly on Ebay tells it all.
I do not want this to be the case.
But the unavoidable overheads of business, minimum wage legislation, health and safety legislation and the other plethora of regulations controlling business and employment in the UK militate against any manufacturing business in the UK. We are exporting jobs by the shed load.
In tine I think this will change. It will have to economically.
But at the present time, anyone starting a Kit Car business, or indeed any other manufacturing business, is a brave soul and deserves all the support we can give and a lot of luck.
There are success stories like Sylva with Jeremy Phillips at the helm which produced some very good cars. Now retired of course.
But many of the Kit Car manufacturers have actually been in a labour of love and not actually motivated primarily by money.
In my career as an Accountant I have advised a number of prospective Kit Car makers to seriously think again because this is a very specialist market and a luxury market at that. I have also helped a number to get going and prosper to a greater or lesser extent.
If you are only interested in money automobiles are a bad business to be in particularly nowadays. Generally the few who succeed do so because of immense personal efforts and not a lot of financial return.
The sheer number of Kit Car projects offering moulds, a running prototype and right of manufacture appearing weekly on Ebay tells it all.
I do not want this to be the case.
But the unavoidable overheads of business, minimum wage legislation, health and safety legislation and the other plethora of regulations controlling business and employment in the UK militate against any manufacturing business in the UK. We are exporting jobs by the shed load.
In tine I think this will change. It will have to economically.
But at the present time, anyone starting a Kit Car business, or indeed any other manufacturing business, is a brave soul and deserves all the support we can give and a lot of luck.
Steffan said:
Essentially much of Kit Car Manufacturing is Hobby Trading. The essential motivation of setting up the business is the desire to make a particular car, which frequently then becomes an obsession.
There are success stories like Sylva with Jeremy Phillips at the helm which produced some very good cars. Now retired of course.
But many of the Kit Car manufacturers have actually been in a labour of love and not actually motivated primarily by money.
In my career as an Accountant I have advised a number of prospective Kit Car makers to seriously think again because this is a very specialist market and a luxury market at that. I have also helped a number to get going and prosper to a greater or lesser extent.
If you are only interested in money automobiles are a bad business to be in particularly nowadays. Generally the few who succeed do so because of immense personal efforts and not a lot of financial return.
The sheer number of Kit Car projects offering moulds, a running prototype and right of manufacture appearing weekly on Ebay tells it all.
I do not want this to be the case.
But the unavoidable overheads of business, minimum wage legislation, health and safety legislation and the other plethora of regulations controlling business and employment in the UK militate against any manufacturing business in the UK. We are exporting jobs by the shed load.
In tine I think this will change. It will have to economically.
But at the present time, anyone starting a Kit Car business, or indeed any other manufacturing business, is a brave soul and deserves all the support we can give and a lot of luck.
I agree with your post 100 %, but I sometimes think that new blood is needed, maybe with a slightly less conservative approach to the industry and a more open view to other venues and industry that are similar.There are success stories like Sylva with Jeremy Phillips at the helm which produced some very good cars. Now retired of course.
But many of the Kit Car manufacturers have actually been in a labour of love and not actually motivated primarily by money.
In my career as an Accountant I have advised a number of prospective Kit Car makers to seriously think again because this is a very specialist market and a luxury market at that. I have also helped a number to get going and prosper to a greater or lesser extent.
If you are only interested in money automobiles are a bad business to be in particularly nowadays. Generally the few who succeed do so because of immense personal efforts and not a lot of financial return.
The sheer number of Kit Car projects offering moulds, a running prototype and right of manufacture appearing weekly on Ebay tells it all.
I do not want this to be the case.
But the unavoidable overheads of business, minimum wage legislation, health and safety legislation and the other plethora of regulations controlling business and employment in the UK militate against any manufacturing business in the UK. We are exporting jobs by the shed load.
In tine I think this will change. It will have to economically.
But at the present time, anyone starting a Kit Car business, or indeed any other manufacturing business, is a brave soul and deserves all the support we can give and a lot of luck.
We need new ideas and have the support of the industry as a whole and try to push forward innovative products and not the same old, same old....
I just hope things pick up, for those that will be able to survive this double dip recession( but is it a recession or is it something else ? ...),
I feel that this will not be another recession, but more of a sistemic change in the automotive industry and this will surely influence the kitcar industry.
In the future, more stringent laws and EU Regulations could undermine the sustainability of this industry.
You are absolutely right. The Kit Car industry in Britain is an anachronism because our laws relating to type approval and low volume car production are far more lenient and far less bureaucratic than those of the EU.
As a result it is still post IVA far easier to get a Kit Car registered in the UK than in the EU. I direct consequence there is a substantial demand for Kit Cars recently registered in the UK for import into Europe by EU citizens who realise that this is much easier than going through the EU registration process, because the UK registration is accepted by the EU.
And I entirely agree about new blood. What we need is another Jeremy Phillips or Peter Pellandine or even a Colin Chapman, to bring a new approach to the whole concept of Kit Cars.
I am a lover of Three wheel Kit Cars but I have yet to see a motorbike engined modern Kit Car which is really much improvement over the efforts of Lawrie Bond and Berkeley over 60 years ago. Sixty years later no real improvement. Compare that to the progress of ordinary cars!!
I am convinced a lightweight three wheel special clothed in really smooth aerodynamic bodywork could be a genuine 70mpg 100++ and could be built for sensible money with the right design.
But the Berkeley fitted with a Kawasaki engine or equivalent can do that anyway. There are occasionally Berkeley's offered for sale and these rarely exceed £4000 to £5000.
It needs somebody with a really different approach to think outside the box and come up with a really unusual but workable design. Otherwise buying a Berkeley and adding a modern drivetrain is cheaper, quicker and a whole lot easier.
There are so many seven type cars about there must be at least a dozen different ones available. But these are all developments (sometimes retrograde)of the old Lotus Super Seven I had 45 years ago. And at least half are heavier and slower and have nowhere near as good handling as the old Lotus. Still to this day, one of the most pure out and out sports cars I have driven. There were snags, you did need wipers on the inside. But at the time completely out on its own.
What I see is a great deal of copying and cloning of other peoples ideas in the modern Kit car Industry. Very very little genuine innovation.
Equally in the current market I can buy (have bought) a Z3 or Mazda for very little money (£1800 and £800) and immediately have fun with no effort at all.
I am still heavily into Kit Cars because I have the bug. Building, finishing, restoring and converting seven currently. But that is because I was bitten by the bug in 1960 and its is just fun for me.
I am not and never have made any money from Kit cars. Had a lot of fun.
The KC industry seems to me to lack any really different designs and approaches. It is also firmly in the Luxury end of the market in final cost.
Compare a new Westfield or Tiger to a secondhand Z3. Yes the kit cars are quicker. But are they more fun? More reliable? Easier to drive? As welcome to the average other half?
NO. And they should be. That is the problem.
As a result it is still post IVA far easier to get a Kit Car registered in the UK than in the EU. I direct consequence there is a substantial demand for Kit Cars recently registered in the UK for import into Europe by EU citizens who realise that this is much easier than going through the EU registration process, because the UK registration is accepted by the EU.
And I entirely agree about new blood. What we need is another Jeremy Phillips or Peter Pellandine or even a Colin Chapman, to bring a new approach to the whole concept of Kit Cars.
I am a lover of Three wheel Kit Cars but I have yet to see a motorbike engined modern Kit Car which is really much improvement over the efforts of Lawrie Bond and Berkeley over 60 years ago. Sixty years later no real improvement. Compare that to the progress of ordinary cars!!
I am convinced a lightweight three wheel special clothed in really smooth aerodynamic bodywork could be a genuine 70mpg 100++ and could be built for sensible money with the right design.
But the Berkeley fitted with a Kawasaki engine or equivalent can do that anyway. There are occasionally Berkeley's offered for sale and these rarely exceed £4000 to £5000.
It needs somebody with a really different approach to think outside the box and come up with a really unusual but workable design. Otherwise buying a Berkeley and adding a modern drivetrain is cheaper, quicker and a whole lot easier.
There are so many seven type cars about there must be at least a dozen different ones available. But these are all developments (sometimes retrograde)of the old Lotus Super Seven I had 45 years ago. And at least half are heavier and slower and have nowhere near as good handling as the old Lotus. Still to this day, one of the most pure out and out sports cars I have driven. There were snags, you did need wipers on the inside. But at the time completely out on its own.
What I see is a great deal of copying and cloning of other peoples ideas in the modern Kit car Industry. Very very little genuine innovation.
Equally in the current market I can buy (have bought) a Z3 or Mazda for very little money (£1800 and £800) and immediately have fun with no effort at all.
I am still heavily into Kit Cars because I have the bug. Building, finishing, restoring and converting seven currently. But that is because I was bitten by the bug in 1960 and its is just fun for me.
I am not and never have made any money from Kit cars. Had a lot of fun.
The KC industry seems to me to lack any really different designs and approaches. It is also firmly in the Luxury end of the market in final cost.
Compare a new Westfield or Tiger to a secondhand Z3. Yes the kit cars are quicker. But are they more fun? More reliable? Easier to drive? As welcome to the average other half?
NO. And they should be. That is the problem.
I disagree.
What lets kit cars down is not a lack of new ideas. Previous eras had a lot of cloned, or very similar, designs. Previous eras may have experimented more but many of the experiments proved to be bad ideas and others were largely due to the construction method itself (composites) being new.
Kits are let down by:
1) basic build issues
A colleague of mine built a well known kit and was repeatedly told that parts would fit only to find that they did not. Some of the suspension didn't fit his donor parts, the heater didn't fit properly, the carburettor kit is somewhat lacking in drivability and the plans for weather gear are, apparently, lost. Something as simple as a part list of known assembleable parts would be a good thing.
2) styling
Some kits are really poor. You can make almost any shape you want so why, why, make an ugly one?
3) marketed as cheap performance
They are not actually cheap especially if you count your effort in hours. Also this encourages the idea that kits are scrap yard specials, perhaps they are and certainly some people can work wonders with scrap parts but many more produce what are effectively bangers in fibreglass drag.
4)
A complete lack of 2+2 versions. Quantum did allright as did Ginetta, Gilbern and plenty of others. Now an almost empty segment. Surely there are far more customers for cars that have just a little bit more practicality.
So what we need are kits that fit together properly, look pretty and are marketed as hobbies (everyday fun or track days) or possibly as automotive kinetic art. Also consider a 2+2 version.
What lets kit cars down is not a lack of new ideas. Previous eras had a lot of cloned, or very similar, designs. Previous eras may have experimented more but many of the experiments proved to be bad ideas and others were largely due to the construction method itself (composites) being new.
Kits are let down by:
1) basic build issues
A colleague of mine built a well known kit and was repeatedly told that parts would fit only to find that they did not. Some of the suspension didn't fit his donor parts, the heater didn't fit properly, the carburettor kit is somewhat lacking in drivability and the plans for weather gear are, apparently, lost. Something as simple as a part list of known assembleable parts would be a good thing.
2) styling
Some kits are really poor. You can make almost any shape you want so why, why, make an ugly one?
3) marketed as cheap performance
They are not actually cheap especially if you count your effort in hours. Also this encourages the idea that kits are scrap yard specials, perhaps they are and certainly some people can work wonders with scrap parts but many more produce what are effectively bangers in fibreglass drag.
4)
A complete lack of 2+2 versions. Quantum did allright as did Ginetta, Gilbern and plenty of others. Now an almost empty segment. Surely there are far more customers for cars that have just a little bit more practicality.
So what we need are kits that fit together properly, look pretty and are marketed as hobbies (everyday fun or track days) or possibly as automotive kinetic art. Also consider a 2+2 version.
There are many points in your post that I agree with.
The quality and completeness of parts in a kit are widely recognised as very variable depending on the particular kit. This is not good for the industry.
And I agree absolutely that kits are too expensive particularly if the Builder costs in the building time required. I also agree that the competition to refurb, modify, alter or personalise a Z3 or Z4 or MX5 is very tempting because this involves a lot less work and in many ways could give a better more enjoyable car.
I do think there is a lack of really mould breaking (no pun) ideas and a really new approach. There are so many seven clones with very similar square tube chassis's and drivetrains I think this is pointless repetition.
What we need is a ground breaking design that approaches this from a different perspective. Simply copying a 50 year old design in layout, drivetrain set up, shape, profile and character does not create a really new product it simply repeats the mistakes and weakness of a very old design.
I know the Super Seven backwards I built and drove one 48 years ago and have built three thus far in my life. I have also lost count of the clones I have had over the years. And the number of kits I have built including Westfield, Dutton, Banham. Locost, JC Locost, Marcos, Midas, CoxGTM, Pimlico and umpteen others. My Robin Hood is only 12 months old and is very little different from my Lotus Super Seven in 1963. Just worth about £25,000 less.
There has really been very little progress.
The time is approaching where Kit Cars are not the force they were. I do n9ot want that. Building Kit Cars is my obsession.
What we need is a really different product NOT another clone.
Anyone got one?
The quality and completeness of parts in a kit are widely recognised as very variable depending on the particular kit. This is not good for the industry.
And I agree absolutely that kits are too expensive particularly if the Builder costs in the building time required. I also agree that the competition to refurb, modify, alter or personalise a Z3 or Z4 or MX5 is very tempting because this involves a lot less work and in many ways could give a better more enjoyable car.
I do think there is a lack of really mould breaking (no pun) ideas and a really new approach. There are so many seven clones with very similar square tube chassis's and drivetrains I think this is pointless repetition.
What we need is a ground breaking design that approaches this from a different perspective. Simply copying a 50 year old design in layout, drivetrain set up, shape, profile and character does not create a really new product it simply repeats the mistakes and weakness of a very old design.
I know the Super Seven backwards I built and drove one 48 years ago and have built three thus far in my life. I have also lost count of the clones I have had over the years. And the number of kits I have built including Westfield, Dutton, Banham. Locost, JC Locost, Marcos, Midas, CoxGTM, Pimlico and umpteen others. My Robin Hood is only 12 months old and is very little different from my Lotus Super Seven in 1963. Just worth about £25,000 less.
There has really been very little progress.
The time is approaching where Kit Cars are not the force they were. I do n9ot want that. Building Kit Cars is my obsession.
What we need is a really different product NOT another clone.
Anyone got one?
Steffan said:
And I agree absolutely that kits are too expensive particularly if the Builder costs in the building time required. I also agree that the competition to refurb, modify, alter or personalise a Z3 or Z4 or MX5 is very tempting because this involves a lot less work and in many ways could give a better more enjoyable car.
I didn't mean that they were too expensive, just that marketing them as cheap performance might not be the best move as it encourages a "scrap yard special" image.There is nothing wrong with kits costing what they do. Look at what some other hobbies would cost spread out over a typical build time plus a few years of use. It would be very hard to offer a cheaper deal anyway.
An important point is that a Z3 etc will not be anywhere near the same kind of hobby unless it is modified so completely as to be virtually a different car.
Steffan said:
There has really been very little progress.
Given the example you use you would expect that.The kind of innovation I think you are suggesting is a very poor substitute for parts that fit together properly and, as I pointed out above, innovation was often only common in the past because the method of manufacture itself was new. Personally I would suggest that innovation aimed at improving fit and finish would be way, way, more relevant.
Many products sell steadily with little or no innovation, why should we demand it for kit cars?
Or in other words, what exactly do you think innovation should deliver?
The last thing we need is a futuristic car that proves to be too expensive, unreliable or awkward to build to be remotely sensible.
Steffan said:
I am a lover of Three wheel Kit Cars but I have yet to see a motorbike engined modern Kit Car which is really much improvement over the efforts of Lawrie Bond and Berkeley over 60 years ago. Sixty years later no real improvement. Compare that to the progress of ordinary cars!!
I am convinced a lightweight three wheel special clothed in really smooth aerodynamic bodywork could be a genuine 70mpg 100++ and could be built for sensible money with the right design.
But the Berkeley fitted with a Kawasaki engine or equivalent can do that anyway. There are occasionally Berkeley's offered for sale and these rarely exceed £4000 to £5000.
It needs somebody with a really different approach to think outside the box and come up with a really unusual but workable design. Otherwise buying a Berkeley and adding a modern drivetrain is cheaper, quicker and a whole lot easier.
VW tried in 1986 with a very simple front wheel drive threewheeler concept using a VW Polo 1000cc engine:I am convinced a lightweight three wheel special clothed in really smooth aerodynamic bodywork could be a genuine 70mpg 100++ and could be built for sensible money with the right design.
But the Berkeley fitted with a Kawasaki engine or equivalent can do that anyway. There are occasionally Berkeley's offered for sale and these rarely exceed £4000 to £5000.
It needs somebody with a really different approach to think outside the box and come up with a really unusual but workable design. Otherwise buying a Berkeley and adding a modern drivetrain is cheaper, quicker and a whole lot easier.
I still think that un updated version of this concept would make for an interesting and unique vehicle and you could use, some modern 3 and 4 cylinder engines, like those used by Suzuki/Maruti, Daewoo Matiz, Toyota Yaris and many more of these modern engines...
I entirely agree with your comments.
Trouble is this is an old design and yet is still in many ways better than the daft tag on Motorbikes three wheeler specials that some kit car makers are producing now. They are about as balanced as an inverted triangle. Says it all really.
I could not design my way out of a paper bag. I am after all an Accountant.
But surely there are individuals who could come up with something really fresh and different that the Kit Car industry could take on.
Given the complete lack of any such projects that I have seen in the last 20 years, presumably not.
I appreciate your posts on Three Wheelers and I really hope something will come along. But I am not holding my breath.
Trouble is this is an old design and yet is still in many ways better than the daft tag on Motorbikes three wheeler specials that some kit car makers are producing now. They are about as balanced as an inverted triangle. Says it all really.
I could not design my way out of a paper bag. I am after all an Accountant.
But surely there are individuals who could come up with something really fresh and different that the Kit Car industry could take on.
Given the complete lack of any such projects that I have seen in the last 20 years, presumably not.
I appreciate your posts on Three Wheelers and I really hope something will come along. But I am not holding my breath.
Steffan said:
.....What we need is a really different product NOT another clone.....
I agree wholeheartedly but...will I like your new design innovation?Will sufficient customers like it in order to justify the development expense that will all but cripple your company?
If I choose instead to copy an existing seven style I at least stand a chance of sharing some of the existing market instead of risking coming away with nothing.
An international manufacturer may be in a position to take a risk on a cars styling in the hope that more people liked it than didn't. A Kit company does not have the clout to take that risk.
How would this abomination have gone down at its Stoneleigh reveal?
Steve
Steffan said:
I could not design my way out of a paper bag. I am after all an Accountant.
You need to stop thinking like that.If someone told me that I obviously must be lacking in some other area due to the job I do I'd assume that I was talking to someone not clever enough to be good at more than one thing and who was also narrow minded enough to think that everyone else was like them.
Steffan said:
But surely there are individuals who could come up with something really fresh and different that the Kit Car industry could take on.
Given the complete lack of any such projects that I have seen in the last 20 years, presumably not.
I appreciate your posts on Three Wheelers and I really hope something will come along. But I am not holding my breath.
What sort of "fresh and different" do you want?Given the complete lack of any such projects that I have seen in the last 20 years, presumably not.
I appreciate your posts on Three Wheelers and I really hope something will come along. But I am not holding my breath.
The innovation that is really needed is listed in my earlier post. Wacky concepts really won't help at all until these are faced up to.
I am not a designer nor could I be a designer.
Many years ago reading Psychology at London Uni I undertook loads of psychometric tests to determine my natural inabilities and disabilities.
I actually acted as a guinea pig on lots of test development. At Uni there were loads of test programs being developed and I was happy to undertake them all.
That was when I discovered my my leaning towards language and mathematics which I never knew I had till then. Also found loads os weaknesses such as inability to perceive accurate depth changes. I could not be a pilot I would land the plane 12 feet below the runway.
Trust me I could not be a designer. No spatial concepts. Also compulsive/obsessive on the spectrum but happily 40 year Accountancy gave me a good life. It is a career I enjoyed and gave me financial security. Can you ask more?
Because of my limitations I can only really comment on what we do not want. I have to see a design to appreciate a design. I could not design anything.
What we do not want is more Seven clones. I own three and not one of them is anywhere near as good as my old Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam. After 50 odd years of development this is hardly progress.
What we do not want are A series Kit Cars. Yes I have two but the mechanics are out of the Ark. This drivetrain is 60 years old. This is not progress.
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
Many years ago reading Psychology at London Uni I undertook loads of psychometric tests to determine my natural inabilities and disabilities.
I actually acted as a guinea pig on lots of test development. At Uni there were loads of test programs being developed and I was happy to undertake them all.
That was when I discovered my my leaning towards language and mathematics which I never knew I had till then. Also found loads os weaknesses such as inability to perceive accurate depth changes. I could not be a pilot I would land the plane 12 feet below the runway.
Trust me I could not be a designer. No spatial concepts. Also compulsive/obsessive on the spectrum but happily 40 year Accountancy gave me a good life. It is a career I enjoyed and gave me financial security. Can you ask more?
Because of my limitations I can only really comment on what we do not want. I have to see a design to appreciate a design. I could not design anything.
What we do not want is more Seven clones. I own three and not one of them is anywhere near as good as my old Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam. After 50 odd years of development this is hardly progress.
What we do not want are A series Kit Cars. Yes I have two but the mechanics are out of the Ark. This drivetrain is 60 years old. This is not progress.
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
Steffan said:
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
I totally agree with you and also think that the kitcar industry would be in a good position to create those cars, as the skills and technical engineering abilities are abundant, but maybe what is lacking is a vision of the future and where this industry is heading.We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
I also think that the biggest hurdle for any project would be the lack of money or funding for these new projects.
The economy is not going to help us in the next 2-3 years and wonder what this industry will look like in 2014-5 ?
I've said this before in some other threads, in mainland Europe we think that the UK kitcar enthusiast is one of the luckiest person, as he can dream, build and drive his own creation and have the opportunity to register it.
I really think that the Kitcar industry needs some strong lobbying in Brussels to keep this industry from dissapearing in the future, due to impending harsher and stricter safety and environmental regulations ..
I also think that the industry needs to diversify in other niches and use the potential of the European Union and Russia, just look at the demographics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europ...
My ideas to divrsify and identify new potential markets for th kitcar indsutry in the future:
1 - One industry were kitcar engineering could do real well is in Quadricyles/Microcars that I know in UK have very little appeal and are a very small niche, but in mainland Europe sell about 30.000 vehicles per year!
Why not use the engineering and design experience to diversify in this niche, with innovative new peoducts ? I've been saying this for the last 2yrs. but to date very little interest apart from one or two people in the industry...
2- Urban Mobility, this is something related to microcars but will become big in the future and the kitcar industry could reap benefits at the lower end of the market.
3- Extreme lightweigth sportscar for track days, I think that this niche will become a mainstay of the industry, and the Caterham Seven, Ariel Atom, Radical and a few others are doing well and believe that this is the most fitting part of the industry.
The expertise in this sportscar niche is something very British and admired by everyone worldwide and believe that will still be here in 2015.
4 - Other niches for the future ? I also think like Cymmtriks that a 2+2 might have appeal with families with young kids, but I'm not sure it would make for a business case for most manufacturers, and those that have tried haven't faired that well.
I really don't know why, maybe the styling wasn't appealing or the quality of the product wasn't there, or maybe nobody has yet designed the perfect 2+2, who knows ?
I also believe that designing and manufaturing something unique and appealing in its design at a competitive price and succesfull in sales, is very hard to plan but most of the time happens by chance, but you can try to predict a few things if you study the market,demographics and trends.
I'm positive that there will be a breaktrough design like the Seven was in the 50's, the buggy in the 60's , the Nova in the 70's and 80's and the Ariel Atom in the late 90's.
Can anyone spot a new trend ? a new niche ? that is the big question for most of us....I do have a few ideas, but are in my drawers for the moment...
I agree with everything you say what we really need is a groundbreaking design that offers a real difference to prospective builders.
Interestingly the Nova and the Ariel Atom were both designed by Richard Oakes.
He has had a hand in a number of different kit cars including I think the Midas.
Remarkable achievement to achieve success with two such different cars.
I am certain a product led recovery is the answer. Titivating shows and recloning old designs will not produce a market.
Question is where is the new design coming from?
I wonder if some sort of competition in the Kit Car magazines or sponsored by a remaining successful manufacturer could bring something out. There must be a wealth of underemployed talent in Uni studying Car Designs at the moment.
I think that is worth a try.
Interestingly the Nova and the Ariel Atom were both designed by Richard Oakes.
He has had a hand in a number of different kit cars including I think the Midas.
Remarkable achievement to achieve success with two such different cars.
I am certain a product led recovery is the answer. Titivating shows and recloning old designs will not produce a market.
Question is where is the new design coming from?
I wonder if some sort of competition in the Kit Car magazines or sponsored by a remaining successful manufacturer could bring something out. There must be a wealth of underemployed talent in Uni studying Car Designs at the moment.
I think that is worth a try.
Steffan said:
I agree with everything you say what we really need is a groundbreaking design that offers a real difference to prospective builders.
Interestingly the Nova and the Ariel Atom were both designed by Richard Oakes.
He has had a hand in a number of different kit cars including I think the Midas.
Remarkable achievement to achieve success with two such different cars.
I am certain a product led recovery is the answer. Titivating shows and recloning old designs will not produce a market.
Question is where is the new design coming from?
I wonder if some sort of competition in the Kit Car magazines or sponsored by a remaining successful manufacturer could bring something out. There must be a wealth of underemployed talent in Uni studying Car Designs at the moment.
I think that is worth a try.
Working as a car designer I can tell you that there is a wealth of design talent out there,young and old, willing to work on new ideas, the problem is funding.Interestingly the Nova and the Ariel Atom were both designed by Richard Oakes.
He has had a hand in a number of different kit cars including I think the Midas.
Remarkable achievement to achieve success with two such different cars.
I am certain a product led recovery is the answer. Titivating shows and recloning old designs will not produce a market.
Question is where is the new design coming from?
I wonder if some sort of competition in the Kit Car magazines or sponsored by a remaining successful manufacturer could bring something out. There must be a wealth of underemployed talent in Uni studying Car Designs at the moment.
I think that is worth a try.
If you find the funding for such a project , the skills are available at very reasonable costs from many sectors of the automotive industry.
I like your idea for the kitcar magazines to propose design concepts and have done so myself for the past few years, but even if the feedback from readers and manufacturers on the designs proposed was very positive, the lack of funds for new projects is a major problem. Very few have the funds for new project in the current economy.
Unfortunately the major stumbling block is funding as you can see, it's not the lack of ideas or concepts.
I also think that using an excellent donor like the mx5 for future rebody kits could open up a few more niches, just like MEV is proving with its new kits, but if we're really looking for a breaktrough design, then you need to look at alternative vehicles related to Urban Mobility, but the costs for such project are way out for any small kitcar operation.
Personally I would stick to a few kitcar concepts that are unique of the industry(exo-skelton kits) and develop those that have the potential to be totally different from mainstream automotive design.
Studying who is the potential new buyer might also give you clues to what type of kitcar design you should be working on, what are the needs? is it for track use or touring ?, 2 seater or 2+2 ? and other...
Unfortunately there is very little information on the industry and that is why I posted the research papers, as it gives some info on the industry even if now outdated.
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 27th September 11:55
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 27th September 12:35
Sadly a Lotus 7 type car sells!
I am building a special version now LOL.
What would be good would be a rear drive car that uses the FWD set up in its entirety at the back and is rear drive.
Use the rack of the good old Escort and your cooking on gas.
There were kits years ago that used this idea Cox, Rosso and a great forgotten hero the Unipower.
However I used to own a Robin Hood and people would say great car etc as you drove past despite being a poor performer and my Quantum 2+2 RST which is damn quick does not even get noticed.
There is something special looking out on the back of the headlights and bonnet of a sevenesque car that is always going to appeal to so many.
I am building a special version now LOL.
What would be good would be a rear drive car that uses the FWD set up in its entirety at the back and is rear drive.
Use the rack of the good old Escort and your cooking on gas.
There were kits years ago that used this idea Cox, Rosso and a great forgotten hero the Unipower.
However I used to own a Robin Hood and people would say great car etc as you drove past despite being a poor performer and my Quantum 2+2 RST which is damn quick does not even get noticed.
There is something special looking out on the back of the headlights and bonnet of a sevenesque car that is always going to appeal to so many.
Steffan said:
I am not a designer nor could I be a designer.
Many years ago reading Psychology at London Uni I undertook loads of psychometric tests to determine my natural inabilities and disabilities.
I actually acted as a guinea pig on lots of test development. At Uni there were loads of test programs being developed and I was happy to undertake them all.
That was when I discovered my my leaning towards language and mathematics which I never knew I had till then. Also found loads os weaknesses such as inability to perceive accurate depth changes. I could not be a pilot I would land the plane 12 feet below the runway.
Trust me I could not be a designer. No spatial concepts. Also compulsive/obsessive on the spectrum but happily 40 year Accountancy gave me a good life. It is a career I enjoyed and gave me financial security. Can you ask more?
Because of my limitations I can only really comment on what we do not want. I have to see a design to appreciate a design. I could not design anything.
What we do not want is more Seven clones. I own three and not one of them is anywhere near as good as my old Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam. After 50 odd years of development this is hardly progress.
What we do not want are A series Kit Cars. Yes I have two but the mechanics are out of the Ark. This drivetrain is 60 years old. This is not progress.
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
Interestingly I think what you are describing IS design. A designer is not a bloke sitting at a drawing board or nowadays a CAD computer, a designer is someone who comes up with new or different ideas, or indeed someone who can point out things that are definitely NOT required - so I think perhaps you could be a designer after all! With regard to what you say re spatial skills, surely that is the work of a stylist NOT a designer (stylists & designers are frequently confused with one another)Many years ago reading Psychology at London Uni I undertook loads of psychometric tests to determine my natural inabilities and disabilities.
I actually acted as a guinea pig on lots of test development. At Uni there were loads of test programs being developed and I was happy to undertake them all.
That was when I discovered my my leaning towards language and mathematics which I never knew I had till then. Also found loads os weaknesses such as inability to perceive accurate depth changes. I could not be a pilot I would land the plane 12 feet below the runway.
Trust me I could not be a designer. No spatial concepts. Also compulsive/obsessive on the spectrum but happily 40 year Accountancy gave me a good life. It is a career I enjoyed and gave me financial security. Can you ask more?
Because of my limitations I can only really comment on what we do not want. I have to see a design to appreciate a design. I could not design anything.
What we do not want is more Seven clones. I own three and not one of them is anywhere near as good as my old Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam. After 50 odd years of development this is hardly progress.
What we do not want are A series Kit Cars. Yes I have two but the mechanics are out of the Ark. This drivetrain is 60 years old. This is not progress.
What we do want is cost effective up to date engineering, lightweight fuel efficient aerodynamic designs with cheap effective simple suspension developed from the ideas following along the lines of the old Mini trumpets and rubber cones. Not that would be progress. Not springs and wishbones from Ford Sierra's.
We also need closed bodywork lightweight sandwich modular floor and body assemblies developing from the Berkeley and similar designs. The weight saving over square tube chassis's should be worthwhile and we could incorporate totally flat (or aerodynamic) floors utilising ground effects and enhancing stability at speed.
With all the designers coming out of Uni with no job to go to surely somebody could come up with such a car.
What we need is a product led recovery not an event led recovery.
We need really exciting products never seen before utilising modern techniques to create outstanding Kit Cars.
Are we going to to get this? That's is up to the Industry.
But this must be better than the current rerunning of old clones.
Couldn't agree more about the re-hashing of old clones! (most of them hide under the banner of "Lotus 7" or "Cobra" - Both so similar to the original that you really cannot tell the difference!!!)
I agree with your comments but unfortunately the original cars looker, better drove better and are about ten times more valuable.
I had a Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam ford engine that leaked oil everywhere and threw off fan belts frequently in the 1960's. Looked just like the Mcgoohan car from the Prisoner wonderful car most exhilarating drive but you did need wipers on the inside!
Driven a few genuine AC Cobras years ago as well, never owned one found them very challenging on corners the weight distribution left much to be desired. Very tail happy and undrivable at speed round corners in the wet.
I do not think I can offer any design ideas or suggestions. Just not my game.
However I can and have created various accounting systems, reporting sstyems, cost control systems, stock control systems and management control systems for a number of Kit Car manufacturers over the years. Now that I can do.
Really retired now except for the odd (advisedly) project.
Innovation, outstanding designs, entirely new concepts, those are the projects we need to see from Kit Car makers offering different, off the wall practicalities and challenging solutions. That's what we need.
Unfortunately I can describe it but I cannot design it. Hence my suggestion of a competition offered by Manufacturers or Kit Car magazines to the graduate designers coming out of Uni to produce such challenging new ideas. I do think that is worth a try.
I had a Lotus Super Seven with the Big Valve Twin Cam ford engine that leaked oil everywhere and threw off fan belts frequently in the 1960's. Looked just like the Mcgoohan car from the Prisoner wonderful car most exhilarating drive but you did need wipers on the inside!
Driven a few genuine AC Cobras years ago as well, never owned one found them very challenging on corners the weight distribution left much to be desired. Very tail happy and undrivable at speed round corners in the wet.
I do not think I can offer any design ideas or suggestions. Just not my game.
However I can and have created various accounting systems, reporting sstyems, cost control systems, stock control systems and management control systems for a number of Kit Car manufacturers over the years. Now that I can do.
Really retired now except for the odd (advisedly) project.
Innovation, outstanding designs, entirely new concepts, those are the projects we need to see from Kit Car makers offering different, off the wall practicalities and challenging solutions. That's what we need.
Unfortunately I can describe it but I cannot design it. Hence my suggestion of a competition offered by Manufacturers or Kit Car magazines to the graduate designers coming out of Uni to produce such challenging new ideas. I do think that is worth a try.
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