Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
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Pistom said:
Cars from history such as Marcos GT, Rochdale Olympic, Midas Gold etc are a lesson from the past as to what could be achieved. Maybe we live in different times.
We do.In their day, the cars you mention were all comparable with the best mainstream production cars in their market sector, not just in performance, but in terms of quality, cost, and reliability. In terms of longevity, they were actually better.
Those things are simply no longer achievable by kit cars.
Equus said:
Those things are simply no longer achievable by kit cars.
I don't think it's that. The cars mentioned by Pistom (well, possibly excluding the Midas), and the Unipower GT amongst many other from the past are very attractive cars. Most of the crap churned out in the last decade or maybe more are either plain or ugly.It seems companies are happy to spend thousands of hours on grp moulds but not pay anyone with eyes and a sense of style to design it.
Nikolai said:
I don't think it's that. The cars mentioned by Pistom (well, possibly excluding the Midas), and the Unipower GT amongst many other from the past are very attractive cars. Most of the crap churned out in the last decade or maybe more are either plain or ugly.
I agree that aesthetics are an area where kit cars have a potential edge, as they don't need to comply with the same complexity of regulation as type approved production cars.Set against which is that it's not as easy to get the aesthetics right as it seems, and major manufacturers can afford pay the professional. No disrespect to Vortrix (I know how difficult body design iis!), but if even one of the more 'eccentric' manufacturers like Bristol or Mitsuoka had presented something that looked like his blue car to the market, they'd be murdered here on PistonHeads.
But I think it takes more than aesthetics and raw performance to make a car a genuine option as something other than a weekend toy.
Equus said:
I agree that aesthetics are an area where kit cars have a potential edge, as they don't need to comply with the same complexity of regulation as type approved production cars.
I agree and has always made me wonder why there haven't been more kit cars inspired by mainstream manufacturers Concept cars.Wasn't really sure whether to put this here or on the EV thread. I think OS may be the way forward, but I fail to see how this this
could be regarded as cheap or helpful, looking at what they have invested in it (if their figures are true) then I suspect someone is going to lose a lot of money, or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?
could be regarded as cheap or helpful, looking at what they have invested in it (if their figures are true) then I suspect someone is going to lose a lot of money, or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?
rdodger said:
Equus said:
I agree that aesthetics are an area where kit cars have a potential edge, as they don't need to comply with the same complexity of regulation as type approved production cars.
I agree and has always made me wonder why there haven't been more kit cars inspired by mainstream manufacturers Concept cars.rdodger said:
I agree and has always made me wonder why there haven't been more kit cars inspired by mainstream manufacturers Concept cars.
Is it that the market has become more sophisticated?The Nova was a massive success of this sort, back in the Seventies... but I'm thinking that your average buyer these days would expect refinement, performance and electronics sophistication to match the looks. A VW Beetle floorpan and a canopy that leaks and dies on its struts wouldn't hack it any more.
And then there's the problem that these days (now that the cheese wedge is out of fashion), you need expensive custom glass and lights to make most truly original concepts work: you can always tell when something has been designed from the donor screen and light clusters, backwards, I think.
Nikolai said:
It seems companies are happy to spend thousands of hours on grp moulds but not pay anyone with eyes and a sense of style to design it.
Some mainstream manufacturers are the same as a look down most streets will confirm 
Equus said:
you need expensive custom glass and lights to make most truly original concepts work: you can always tell when something has been designed from the donor screen and light clusters, backwards, I think.
Agree with everything in your post, but actually the tooling for glass isn't that expensive. People with obscure classic cars can get glass made for not a huge investment. Not sure about lights, but there are a lot more to choose from nowadays rather than just round 7", round 5" or rectangular Vauxhall Viva ones.rdodger said:
I agree and has always made me wonder why there haven't been more kit cars inspired by mainstream manufacturers Concept cars.
Absolutely right, and film cars too. I'd love to drive around in one of these
although the plan to make Ed Straker's car seems to have not got far.
Fastpedeller said:
Just about due a comeback!!!
I do hope you're right - I'm a child of the Seventies, so I grew up with an obsession for cars like the Esprit S2 and the Maserati Boomerang!I rediscovered this, just recently, and have been obsessing over the shear cheesyness of it (in both meanings of the word!):
A few days ago I posted my first contribution to this venerable thread. I have learned plenty... but surprisingly, I have also retained plenty of my personal perceptions too. I know now that the kit car market must be running at about 5% of its previous peak and will remain so in perpetuity. And that there will be a continuing classic kit car market, fed by all the builds that have been made so far, plus all the failed prototypes that never went into production and unique cars that were built but never intended to be manufactured.
My blue and red prototypes may never be made in production and that depends on my continued efforts. They obviously will not revive the market and will be murdered by this column for their perceived complete lack of originality, quality and specification.
But they are my designs and I love them. I shall finish them off and enjoy driving them around. The blue one with its 2CV engine and suspension and the red one with its 5 litre v8 and Jag/TVR bits. The yellow machine shown above is definitely not my cup of tea! I worked in TV studios for 25 years and things like this cost far more to make than parsimonious kit car companies would even dream of. And they are all show and no substance either, of course.
I shall use my cars in the real environment that this column has helped me to understand, now that that I have chosen to open my eyes to it.
Here's to the future of a very small niche industry that will continue to stir debate and keep many Piston Heads entertained!
My blue and red prototypes may never be made in production and that depends on my continued efforts. They obviously will not revive the market and will be murdered by this column for their perceived complete lack of originality, quality and specification.
But they are my designs and I love them. I shall finish them off and enjoy driving them around. The blue one with its 2CV engine and suspension and the red one with its 5 litre v8 and Jag/TVR bits. The yellow machine shown above is definitely not my cup of tea! I worked in TV studios for 25 years and things like this cost far more to make than parsimonious kit car companies would even dream of. And they are all show and no substance either, of course.
I shall use my cars in the real environment that this column has helped me to understand, now that that I have chosen to open my eyes to it.
Here's to the future of a very small niche industry that will continue to stir debate and keep many Piston Heads entertained!
Gordon Murray's Made an entry to the Kitcar market.
a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
Edited by SystemParanoia on Thursday 8th September 14:22
SystemParanoia said:
Gordon Murray's Made an entry to the Kitcar market.
a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
I like the concept, but William Towns with the Hustler had a similar vehicle in the 80's....a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
Edited by SystemParanoia on Thursday 8th September 14:22
http://www.ado16.info/hustler.shtml
Or the NCF :
http://www.fiatforum.com/members-motors/194215-sat...
Same concept is the Stey Puch Haflinger only with a rear wheel drive set-up :
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...
VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SnLu6dUDY
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USl3zz4coUE
Or the Brazilian VW Hormiga :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIQL7VR4_A
But thre are many more that have been manufactured in the past and the kitcar industry could come up with something similar maybe for a lesser price tag and really be built as a kit.....
I may well repeat what has been said on the previous 50 + pages that I did not entirely read, but this is my thought:
No donors, especially here in NA. RWD is more fun, but they don't make them anymore in great quantities. Also, oddly, many young people do not even want to OWN cars anymore, and are happy to play video games, rather than drive like maniacs on a race course, let alone putter around country roads in a low tech, fairly unsafe vehicle (by modern standards).
Cost is not consistent with the result. The new cars are just so much better, and cheaper than they used to be, and kit cars are basically 4 wheeled motorcycles, but way more expensive, by the time you get your donor, and source your parts.
It is a bit grim, but hats off to the people that stick with it, and go against the grain.
No donors, especially here in NA. RWD is more fun, but they don't make them anymore in great quantities. Also, oddly, many young people do not even want to OWN cars anymore, and are happy to play video games, rather than drive like maniacs on a race course, let alone putter around country roads in a low tech, fairly unsafe vehicle (by modern standards).
Cost is not consistent with the result. The new cars are just so much better, and cheaper than they used to be, and kit cars are basically 4 wheeled motorcycles, but way more expensive, by the time you get your donor, and source your parts.
It is a bit grim, but hats off to the people that stick with it, and go against the grain.
fuoriserie said:
SystemParanoia said:
Gordon Murray's Made an entry to the Kitcar market.
a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
I like the concept, but William Towns with the Hustler had a similar vehicle in the 80's....a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
Edited by SystemParanoia on Thursday 8th September 14:22
http://www.ado16.info/hustler.shtml
Or the NCF :
http://www.fiatforum.com/members-motors/194215-sat...
Same concept is the Stey Puch Haflinger only with a rear wheel drive set-up :
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...
VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SnLu6dUDY
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USl3zz4coUE
Or the Brazilian VW Hormiga :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIQL7VR4_A
But thre are many more that have been manufactured in the past and the kitcar industry could come up with something similar maybe for a lesser price tag and really be built as a kit.....
I posted this https://www.osvehicle.com/product/tabby-evo/?utm_c...
last week, which no one has commented on, similar in as much as it's intended to be used worldwide in different guises, but if the price tag of the Ox bears any similarity to that of the Tabby Evo then I don't think there will be many buyers from Africa or the like. I've never been that impressed with anything GM has done, I mean the rocket which was basically a Formula Ford with a bike engine in the back hardly deserved a price tag of around £35k back in the eighties did it? IIRC he used a special gearbox which cost about a zillion pounds, if the same sort of thinking has gone into the Ox it won't be cheap
Going back to the original Q, I'm quite sure that we will never get back to the sort of market there was back in the 70's/80's for all the reasons discussed b4, OS might help to keep costs down a little, as might platform sharing, but you simply can't compete with mass production & world markets of literally millions of one given design being produced when you are making less than 10 a year out of a shed somewhere (even if it's a posh shed!)
I think it's time to accept that we are lucky in the UK that we can still produce one-offs & small production runs & actually get them legally on the road, but reviving sales to anything like the old levels just ain't gonna happen - period ..............
RussBost said:
fuoriserie said:
SystemParanoia said:
Gordon Murray's Made an entry to the Kitcar market.
a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
I like the concept, but William Towns with the Hustler had a similar vehicle in the 80's....a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.
Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399
Edited by SystemParanoia on Thursday 8th September 14:22
http://www.ado16.info/hustler.shtml
Or the NCF :
http://www.fiatforum.com/members-motors/194215-sat...
Same concept is the Stey Puch Haflinger only with a rear wheel drive set-up :
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...
VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SnLu6dUDY
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USl3zz4coUE
Or the Brazilian VW Hormiga :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIQL7VR4_A
But thre are many more that have been manufactured in the past and the kitcar industry could come up with something similar maybe for a lesser price tag and really be built as a kit.....
I posted this https://www.osvehicle.com/product/tabby-evo/?utm_c...
last week, which no one has commented on, similar in as much as it's intended to be used worldwide in different guises, but if the price tag of the Ox bears any similarity to that of the Tabby Evo then I don't think there will be many buyers from Africa or the like. I've never been that impressed with anything GM has done, I mean the rocket which was basically a Formula Ford with a bike engine in the back hardly deserved a price tag of around ?35k back in the eighties did it? IIRC he used a special gearbox which cost about a zillion pounds, if the same sort of thinking has gone into the Ox it won't be cheap
Going back to the original Q, I'm quite sure that we will never get back to the sort of market there was back in the 70's/80's for all the reasons discussed b4, OS might help to keep costs down a little, as might platform sharing, but you simply can't compete with mass production & world markets of literally millions of one given design being produced when you are making less than 10 a year out of a shed somewhere (even if it's a posh shed!)
I think it's time to accept that we are lucky in the UK that we can still produce one-offs & small production runs & actually get them legally on the road, but reviving sales to anything like the old levels just ain't gonna happen - period ..............
Wheels are 16"
The axles and hubs brakes etc can all be swapped round so you're not stuck with a left or a right only bit.
full independent suspension all round
Apparently they did a full endurance test at millbrook ( 4000km on the cobbles ) head to head with a defender, and it did better.
i've drudged up a bit of info about it here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by SystemParanoia on Saturday 10th September 15:48
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