Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

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fuoriserie

4,560 posts

268 months

Saturday 10th September 2016
quotequote all
RussBost said:
fuoriserie said:
SystemParanoia said:
Gordon Murray's Made an entry to the Kitcar market.

a 12Hr Construction is definitely a plus over traditional builds.

Anyone fancy going head to head with GM with a competing product ? hehe



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37285399

Edited by SystemParanoia on Thursday 8th September 14:22
I like the concept, but William Towns with the Hustler had a similar vehicle in the 80's....


http://www.ado16.info/hustler.shtml

Or the NCF :
http://www.fiatforum.com/members-motors/194215-sat...

Same concept is the Stey Puch Haflinger only with a rear wheel drive set-up :


https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...

VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2SnLu6dUDY
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Puch_Haflinger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USl3zz4coUE



Or the Brazilian VW Hormiga :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIQL7VR4_A

But thre are many more that have been manufactured in the past and the kitcar industry could come up with something similar maybe for a lesser price tag and really be built as a kit.....
Italo, I don't really think the Hustler is very similar, certainly wouldn't have the same sort of durability & of road capabilities, I think the main points of the Ox is that it can be flat packed to transport anywhere for assembly (presumably you could assemble one & use it to transport others to were they were to be assembled, tho' I can't see that that is a great deal more practical than assembling in one set place & then transporting or driving the finished vehicle to were it's going) can be assembled in 12 hours (yeah, right!) by relatively untrained technicians. a lot of the bodywork is marine ply, so easily replaced, he's said he's selling the first 1000 & making no money from it (I assume he means that any profits from those 1000 will cover R & D costs), I've not seen any pricing, nor what engine & drivetrain it uses so no idea if it's likely to be useful or practical in the real world

I posted this https://www.osvehicle.com/product/tabby-evo/?utm_c...

last week, which no one has commented on, similar in as much as it's intended to be used worldwide in different guises, but if the price tag of the Ox bears any similarity to that of the Tabby Evo then I don't think there will be many buyers from Africa or the like. I've never been that impressed with anything GM has done, I mean the rocket which was basically a Formula Ford with a bike engine in the back hardly deserved a price tag of around £35k back in the eighties did it? IIRC he used a special gearbox which cost about a zillion pounds, if the same sort of thinking has gone into the Ox it won't be cheap

Going back to the original Q, I'm quite sure that we will never get back to the sort of market there was back in the 70's/80's for all the reasons discussed b4, OS might help to keep costs down a little, as might platform sharing, but you simply can't compete with mass production & world markets of literally millions of one given design being produced when you are making less than 10 a year out of a shed somewhere (even if it's a posh shed!)

I think it's time to accept that we are lucky in the UK that we can still produce one-offs & small production runs & actually get them legally on the road, but reviving sales to anything like the old levels just ain't gonna happen - period ..............
Russ I agree with you....what I meant about the Hustler was that it was a very basic tube chassis with a simple front wheel drive engine set-up....on the OX it' s a Ford Transit donor and with a different function, more of a low-cost 2WD offroader pick-up truck...but it has been done before, especially with some military vehicles.

check the Lohr Fl500 for something really interesting and unique :

http://www.citroenet.org.uk/utilities/lohr/fl500.h...


With reference to the Tabby, I had been following the project in Italy as it was supposed to go on sale at a projected 4.000 to 6.000 Euro price,.... but then something wrong must have happened as things have changed ...... and now the project is completely different as is the price !...by the chinese Francisco Liù and italian engineer Ampelio Macchi, who has since left the project to found SWM Motorcycles and resurect it from the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1-EHlSxVMs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moff8NS-3tM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F_XAiN6yUY

I'm not even sure if the project is still on going....a shame really as it should have been a low-cost kitcar Quadricycle and in the EU you used to have a potential 50.000 units sold per year !...



With reference to the Murray Rocket, I liked the idea a lot, but it really was an expensive toy and only for rich guys...I could never afford it myself or most kitcar enthusiasts. I still think the project has potential to this day, but at a much lower price and with more affordable components.


As you mentioned, you guys in the Uk are so lucky, that you can still afford to produce one-offs or small production runs that we in mainland EU can't !

Maybe the kitcar industry should look into other niches that have been overlooked in the past...but i agree with you, that it it will never geta back to the market of the 70-80's....

fuoriserie

4,560 posts

268 months

Saturday 10th September 2016
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
RussBost said:
[
zillion pounds, if the same sort of thinking has gone into the Ox it won't be cheap


...
It Uses a Ford Transit engine and gearbox.

Wheels are 16"

The axles and hubs brakes etc can all be swapped round so you're not stuck with a left or a right only bit.

full independent suspension all round

Apparently they did a full endurance test at millbrook ( 4000km on the cobbles ) head to head with a defender, and it did better.


i've drudged up a bit of info about it here

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...



Edited by SystemParanoia on Saturday 10th September 15:48
Thanks for the extra info on the project...smile

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Sunday 11th September 2016
quotequote all
RussBost said:
Italo, I don't really think the Hustler is very similar...I think the main points of the Ox is that it can be flat packed to transport anywhere for assembly
It's actually much more reminiscent of the old Africar project, in that respect.


RussBost

82 posts

106 months

Sunday 11th September 2016
quotequote all
Italo, re the Tabby "I'm not even sure if the project is still on going....a shame really as it should have been a low-cost kitcar Quadricycle and in the EU you used to have a potential 50.000 units sold per year !...", the link I shared came from an email I received last week so it would still appear to be alive, but I really can't imagine for very much longer at those sort of prices

Which leads to the burning Q about the OX, how much is it? I've seen prices of £10 - £15k quoted, which, if unbuilt sounds very expensive for what is supposed to be a basic utility vehicle with only 2 WD, but one has to ask is it £10k or is it £15k, that's a 50% difference! & is that for a KD flatpack or is it for a complete vehicle? If people want to actually sell things would giving people a price not seem like a good idea?

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
Just got me thinking.

Has anyone made a success out of "Kit Commercial Vehicles" ?
I know vans arnt massively expensive things to own, or something that's purchased with the heart... is there even a market for them ?

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
Fleur de Lys made a successful business for a while, building 'vintage style' delivery vans based on Ford Transit running gear.

I think the key point is that they're business vehicles, though: they're a essential tool to the business, and no business can afford to wait 6 months while its proprietor builds an essential tool up from a kit.

The market would be for ready-assembled vehicles, therefore.

Frankthered

1,619 posts

179 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
Equus said:
Fleur de Lys made a successful business for a while, building 'vintage style' delivery vans based on Ford Transit running gear.

I think the key point is that they're business vehicles, though: they're a essential tool to the business, and no business can afford to wait 6 months while its proprietor builds an essential tool up from a kit.

The market would be for ready-assembled vehicles, therefore.
There were also the Tempest Vantique and the Asquith vintage style vans, both based on the Reliant Kitten chassis. Not sure how successful they were though.

jas xjr

11,309 posts

238 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
Just got me thinking.

Has anyone made a success out of "Kit Commercial Vehicles" ?
I know vans arnt massively expensive things to own, or something that's purchased with the heart... is there even a market for them ?
in the mid eighties i drove a transit van. mechanically it was good but the body was as rusty as a rusty thing. i knew someone that worked at westfield at the time , in a junior role. i sked him to mention to the boss that the scrap yrads were full of rusty but mechanically good transit vans that could do with a new fibreglass shell. apparently it was not a good idea at the time.

browse

355 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
Not sure if this has has been mentioned before but there is a new JC Midge on the scene based on a Suzuki SJ.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JC-MIDGE-MK2-SEE-TWO-ACT...

http://midgebuilders.homestead.com/Mk2-Midge.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuNwhfapCOQ&fe...

I'm sure there's more scope for the SJ chassis in the kit car world, despite it's engine height.

Other contenders.
http://www.scampmotorcompany.co.uk/detailm5.html
http://www.blitzworld.co.uk/blitz-4x4-suzuki-sj-i5...


SJ chassis

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
browse said:
Not sure if this has has been mentioned before but there is a new JC Midge on the scene based on a Suzuki SJ.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JC-MIDGE-MK2-SEE-TWO-ACT...

http://midgebuilders.homestead.com/Mk2-Midge.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuNwhfapCOQ&fe...

I'm sure there's more scope for the SJ chassis in the kit car world, despite it's engine height.

Other contenders.
http://www.scampmotorcompany.co.uk/detailm5.html
http://www.blitzworld.co.uk/blitz-4x4-suzuki-sj-i5...


SJ chassis
I'd be more interested in a two seat mini-dakar type of kit, though the first thing I did when I saw this post was to check out what can be done with the engine in terms of turbo/supercharging...

browse

355 posts

191 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
Toltec said:
I'd be more interested in a two seat mini-dakar type of kit, though the first thing I did when I saw this post was to check out what can be done with the engine in terms of turbo/supercharging...
I agree! smile

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
browse said:
I agree! smile
Quick work!

Call for Mr Mills wink

You can drop the 1.6 VVT engine in for a useful 80-> 120bhp upgrade and they can be turbocharged up to 190bhp on standard internals. Assuming the poor little gearbox doesn't explode.

If you are not power obsessed, like me, I reckon that would be a pretty cheap and IVA free alternative to a Nomad.

Pistom

4,916 posts

158 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
I do however believe thst all this talk is fanciful dreaming.

In the 50s the incentive was for home builds to avoid tax.

In the 80s, it was to own something different.

Back in those days, you could put a toilet on wheels and it would be legal.

Now, it costs more to offer a kit than to buy an assembled car.

The market is much smaller and there is no incentive for manufacturers or buyers.

RIP kit car industry.


SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
Pistom said:
I do however believe thst all this talk is fanciful dreaming.

In the 50s the incentive was for home builds to avoid tax.

In the 80s, it was to own something different.

Back in those days, you could put a toilet on wheels and it would be legal.

Now, it costs more to offer a kit than to buy an assembled car.

The market is much smaller and there is no incentive for manufacturers or buyers.

RIP kit car industry.
this xkcd was written just for you hehe

https://what-if.xkcd.com/6/

OwenK

3,472 posts

194 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
He's right though...
Kit cars used to be a means to an end, an efficient way to attain something that you usually wouldn't.
Now though you end up with a bunch of us prats who like the idea of the kit car and are specifically trying to keep the business model alive for the sake of it.

I think they'll always have a place with the well-heeled enthusiasts who specifically WANTED to build a car themselves - but I suspect they'll be the really, really expensive toys. The fact of the matter is that the higher sales of kits in the past to more "everyman" types were a bubble, a fluke of the economic climate at the time, and it's popped some time ago.

A bit like steam trains are now, and eventually the combustion engine car itself will become. An icon of a particular time in history, once widespread because it was the best tool for the job at the time but since superseded by superior technology - a better tool for the job arrived. Still enjoyed by enthusiasts who fell in love with the quirks (actually inefficiencies...) while the rest of the world move on to "better" things. smile

Pistom

4,916 posts

158 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
I wish the previous poster was wrong but they've summed it up better than me.

Shame as it used to be an attainable route to individuality.

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
OwenK said:
I think they'll always have a place with the well-heeled enthusiasts who specifically WANTED to build a car themselves.
Even that business model will find itself eroded as modern rapid prototyping continues to evolve.

The 'Locost' movement of really, truly building a car yourself (from components and materials, rather than a kit) is increasingly achievable. You can even design it yourself, without too much extra difficulty.

To an extent, it's come full circle to the 'specials builder' ethos of the 1950's and earlier.

OwenK

3,472 posts

194 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
Pistom said:
I wish the previous poster was wrong but they've summed it up better than me.

Shame as it used to be an attainable route to individuality.
I think it still could be, in the form of body conversion panel kits onto decent modern (but relatively inexpensive) donors, with good aesthetically pleasing designs (maybe by design students etc rather than by the kit manufacturer himself).
The modified car bodykit market is bigger now than it ever was and some of them are pretty extensive and require serious surgery to fit - see rocket bunny wide arch kits et al.

It was my intention to start working on some projects in this sector - just because they're cars I wanted to build for myself if nothing else - but the expense and heartache of my last project and being let down by suppliers has really put me off attempting something even more ambitious.

I had in mind a modern sports/GT design resembling something along the lines of an F-Type crossed with a DB10. Donor car Nissan 350Z for relatively cheap powerful FR chassis with a great engine note and a fair selection of aftermarket parts. For £10k total you could have yourself something really unusual that looked at home next to £100k machines but without being a "wannabe" replica of anything in particular. I strongly feel that poor aesthetic design is the main thing keeping the current range of panel kits out of the public eye.

Edited by OwenK on Wednesday 14th September 22:07

Stuart Mills

1,208 posts

205 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
Equus said:
The 'Locost' movement of really, truly building a car yourself (from components and materials, rather than a kit) is increasingly achievable. You can even design it yourself, without too much extra difficulty.

To an extent, it's come full circle to the 'specials builder' ethos of the 1950's and earlier.
I agree, and of course there are books available detailing how to scratch build, OK a bigger task than assembling a kit but non the less a cheaper option if the extra effort is applied. Positivity at last in this thread!


Pistom

4,916 posts

158 months

Wednesday 14th September 2016
quotequote all
OwenK said:
I think it still could be, in the form of body conversion panel kits onto decent modern (but relatively inexpensive) donors, with good aesthetically pleasing designs (maybe by design students etc rather than by the kit manufacturer himself).
The modified car bodykit market is bigger now than it ever was and some of them are pretty extensive and require serious surgery to fit - see rocket bunny wide arch kits et al.

It was my intention to start working on some projects in this sector - just because they're cars I wanted to build for myself if nothing else - but the expense and heartache of my last project and being let down by suppliers has really put me off attempting something even more ambitious.

I had in mind a modern sports/GT design resembling something along the lines of an F-Type crossed with a DB10. Donor car Nissan 350Z for relatively cheap powerful FR chassis with a great engine note and a fair selection of aftermarket parts. For £10k total you could have yourself something really unusual that looked at home next to £100k machines but without being a "wannabe" replica of anything in particular. I strongly feel that poor aesthetic design is the main thing keeping the current range of panel kits out of the public eye.

Edited by OwenK on Wednesday 14th September 22:07
I have much sympathy to this approach but the difficulty is coming up with a product which is worth the effort and the "investment".

As soon as a car is associated with lower cost running gear, even major manufacturers struggle to get away from the stigma. Let alone riveting a body kit onto an MX5 and expect it to have any credibility.

Cars like the Marcos GT, Midas and Nova were professionally styled and if this level of design integrity could be put into a low volume panel kit, there just might be some potential but at what cost. Then there are the limitations of using production car lights and glass.

To make it attractive enough, the quality would have to be at least production car standards.