Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
Dreams'n'Trikes said:
It's claim that cost, for the buy, has stop the move to a more modern donor feels a little like why change it works. My trike Roar used the sub frame engine from a VW Golf GTi(very sadly sold to fund my Lexus V8 trike). It was a sod to get the pick up points right. I build that in 2000 and it was fun, most car to day have a sub-frame. Looking around I know I could design a new monocoque car round any number of sub-frame out there. In fact I am working on an idea for a trike monocoque and have yet to design on power.
I have read this and feel you are really not saying a lot. The statement that they retained the Rover 100/Metro as donor to keep cost down seem fair. I see not reason to say this is just a cover for doing nothing. As to the looks of the 2+2 that is personal, I agree that the Gold has more character than the current cars. A sportiness not seen in the 2+2. I know they still sell the Gold as an open 2 seat sports car, but feel that lack the appear of a coupe. I do not understand why Midas looked at a track day car, these have a limited appear and the market is already well catered for. A Mini Marcos would embassies many of these on a track anyway.
A new Midas that was a modern Mini Marcos, with a modern donor, that could become a great race car. I see the Gold as that, was it ever raced? A new Gold! A road car with the heart of racer, a GTi beatter, a car for gentlemen racer who know that a 7's (and other track day cars) are just for boy racers. A road car that really a racer! A car you drive to and form a track day, with a smile.
A 21C Mini Marcos/Midas Gold!
Edited by KDIcarmad on Sunday 8th July 15:59
Dreams'n'Trikes said:
most car to day have a sub-frame.
I don't believe that there is a single FWD car being built today that has a front subframe which not only contains the whole drive train but also all of the suspension as well.There are a number which use an engine cradle on its own.
It is this packaging that makes such sense, Austin Rover spent millions on develping the packaging and arriving at something that was ideal for a small hatchback, they even tried to make it work in a sports car. There is an old saying 'if it aint broke dont fix it' and in the this case it rings very true.
Anyone see Gordon Murray doc on BBC4 last night? Covers a lot of ground but lots of interesting stuff, couple of comments stood out:
"people are still very emotive about buying a car... style always plays a big part"
"No matter how good the car is from a point of view of efficiency, performance; how low cost it is, how low cost to run - if the car isn't funky or desirable you're not going to sell them"
Granted, these are exactly the kind of comments that would interest me anyway, but think it's especially telling when they're being said by one of the greatest engineers of a generation concerning a city car - ostensibly a rational purchase.
Repeated late tomorrow (preceded by '55 LM crash doc)
"people are still very emotive about buying a car... style always plays a big part"
"No matter how good the car is from a point of view of efficiency, performance; how low cost it is, how low cost to run - if the car isn't funky or desirable you're not going to sell them"
Granted, these are exactly the kind of comments that would interest me anyway, but think it's especially telling when they're being said by one of the greatest engineers of a generation concerning a city car - ostensibly a rational purchase.
Repeated late tomorrow (preceded by '55 LM crash doc)
thescamper said:
Dreams'n'Trikes said:
most car to day have a sub-frame.
There are a number which use an engine cradle on its own.ajprice said:
KDIcarmad said:
Could a Seven based car ever be race at LeMans? Yes I know it would be very hard to do, but the Cobra was build up on an old chassis from AC. By Cobra I mean Daytona Coupe. A race 7 coupe! By the way never got the whole Corba thing!
The Donkervoort D8 took part in the 24hr Dubai race last year, and in European GT4 class racing, against Aston Martin, BMW M3, Porsche 911 etc - http://www.donkervoort.nl/de/news/follow-the-donke...
http://www.donkervoort.nl/en/donkervoort-racing/do...
kennyrayandersen said:
So, I haven't logged on in a blue moon, but I was drooling over pictures of a Donkervoort for about two solid days trying to figure out how difficult it would be to make a removable to that mimicked the Donk so I could get sexy, practical AND top-down motoring fun, when I stumbled on the thread about putting some excitement back in the kitcar world, and the first thing I spot is the Donk in a thread!! You know -- it don't look too hard... Would someone please make one of these so I can order one without having to build it from scratch!
This mob do them. HTH. 
http://www.donkervoort.nl/en/donkervoort-cars
dmulally said:
Thanks for the link I found that some time ago. If I had 130K Euros laying around without a place to put it, I'd get on board!! It's basically a seven with a hard-top and a tweak to the engine -- surely someone could bring it in for not so much more than a standard 7 kit!The interesting thing is the weight is nearly 1700 Lb. The Stalker, for instance, with a V-8 is only 1460 What is a top going to weight? More than 80 Lb? Anyway, I haven't made it all the way through the tread[yet] but it's apparent that having weather protection might bring some on the fringes in.
kennyrayandersen said:
dmulally said:
Thanks for the link I found that some time ago. If I had 130K Euros laying around without a place to put it, I'd get on board!! It's basically a seven with a hard-top and a tweak to the engine -- surely someone could bring it in for not so much more than a standard 7 kit!The interesting thing is the weight is nearly 1700 Lb. The Stalker, for instance, with a V-8 is only 1460 What is a top going to weight? More than 80 Lb? Anyway, I haven't made it all the way through the tread[yet] but it's apparent that having weather protection might bring some on the fringes in.
It is a bit of a tricky one, though. Caterham/Lotus did one back in the day. I'll leave it to you to make your mind up on it.
Westfield had a crack.
So did google images. May be a donk. Not sure.
[img]http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/a421195-alternative hardtop.jpg[/img]
Like the Westfield design, look's right. Never seen one before did they sell many, if any.
I wonder if there would be a market for a "clip on" Seven hardtop that could fit most of these designs. It was done for the Triumph Spritefire and MG Midget/Austin Healy Sprite in the 1960's/70's.
I wonder if there would be a market for a "clip on" Seven hardtop that could fit most of these designs. It was done for the Triumph Spritefire and MG Midget/Austin Healy Sprite in the 1960's/70's.
dmulally said:
kennyrayandersen said:
dmulally said:
Thanks for the link I found that some time ago. If I had 130K Euros laying around without a place to put it, I'd get on board!! It's basically a seven with a hard-top and a tweak to the engine -- surely someone could bring it in for not so much more than a standard 7 kit!The interesting thing is the weight is nearly 1700 Lb. The Stalker, for instance, with a V-8 is only 1460 What is a top going to weight? More than 80 Lb? Anyway, I haven't made it all the way through the tread[yet] but it's apparent that having weather protection might bring some on the fringes in.
It is a bit of a tricky one, though. Caterham/Lotus did one back in the day. I'll leave it to you to make your mind up on it.
Westfield had a crack.
So did google images. May be a donk. Not sure.
[img]http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/a421195-alternative hardtop.jpg[/img]
The actual practicality of these cars is an open question. They are much better than the softop versions with truly minimalist weatherproofing. My early 63 Lotus really required wipers on the inside, the weatherproofing (??!) appeared to channel all the water into the car not over it!
But whether the noise, harshness and vibration, that such packages tend to magnify, could be enjoyed, in long distance cruises is really a bit of a challenge in my view. And I love kit cars.
The problem with enclosed bodywork, particularly in the absence of any soundproofing or sound deadening of any kind, combined with pretty noisy mechanics and very thin panels, is that this, generally magnifies resonance IMO.
This could be addressed, with serious amounts of trim in the right places, but I do think these cars are like drums, because of the light unstressed panels and therefore not easy to effectively address internally.
IMO sadly comfortable long distance cruising, is not an easy result to achieve. I admire the energy and enthusiasm being expended in the pursuit of excellence. I do think that driving one of these creations over a distance may confirm, how difficult it is to actually get the mix right.
Not unlike my classic, Mini Cooper, with a K series high output 175 BHP 1800cc engine and 5 speed box, which is brilliant fun, but always reminds me that there is a limit to the sophistication, that be grafted onto the Classic Mini frame.
I am at that point with my Mini's. Never been without at least one Mini in my family since 1963. But as I can confirm, there is a finite limit to Mini driving. Really long distances being beyond that point. But this could be a consequence of my aging steadily.
Perhaps, upon reflection, that is my problem. Oh Sod It! Keep on trucking, I am going for a rest! At least I am not quite, at the Nurse stage yet, and I can happily, still see play up potential in that era!
qdos said:
Biggest problem doing a top for Sevens is that they are all different. Even ones from the same manufacturer will have the tops of the screens in slightly different places.
Yes, I looked at a few and they are very different. Unknow to me a friend of mine has just bought an old Seven, Its a lot small than most of today cars. He is looking at putting a top on it and has found it is harder than you would think.KDIcarmad said:
Yes, I looked at a few and they are very different. Unknow to me a friend of mine has just bought an old Seven, Its a lot small than most of today cars. He is looking at putting a top on it and has found it is harder than you would think.
Mmmm...old sevens are the right size!! It's sad that they have become so lardy.Ferg said:
KDIcarmad said:
Yes, I looked at a few and they are very different. Unknow to me a friend of mine has just bought an old Seven, Its a lot small than most of today cars. He is looking at putting a top on it and has found it is harder than you would think.
Mmmm...old sevens are the right size!! It's sad that they have become so lardy.I did, just, but it was very very tight and getting out was a real challenge. The wider body sevens are really getting a good deal bigger which I agree has not helped the svelte looks, at all. But with so many drivers being much bigger than they used to be I cannot see any other way forward.
Maybe someone should get into TVRs in kit form....?
Use the old body moulds, cos the looks of all of the range going back to the earliest examples are still "spot on". But stick with the Ford engines for reliability accesss to spares??
Needs someone to wrestle the ownership from Mr Smolensky and put a bit of a cash injection.
Use the old body moulds, cos the looks of all of the range going back to the earliest examples are still "spot on". But stick with the Ford engines for reliability accesss to spares??
Needs someone to wrestle the ownership from Mr Smolensky and put a bit of a cash injection.
S2Mike said:
Maybe someone should get into TVRs in kit form....?
Use the old body moulds, cos the looks of all of the range going back to the earliest examples are still "spot on". But stick with the Ford engines for reliability accesss to spares??
Needs someone to wrestle the ownership from Mr Smolensky and put a bit of a cash injection.
I think that really has potential. However Mr Smolensky could be the problem. There is no duobt that the kits would sell. Use the old body moulds, cos the looks of all of the range going back to the earliest examples are still "spot on". But stick with the Ford engines for reliability accesss to spares??
Needs someone to wrestle the ownership from Mr Smolensky and put a bit of a cash injection.
S2Mike said:
Maybe someone should get into TVRs in kit form....?
Use the old body moulds, cos the looks of all of the range going back to the earliest examples are still "spot on". But stick with the Ford engines for reliability accesss to spares??
Needs someone to wrestle the ownership from Mr Smolensky and put a bit of a cash injection.
I think this idea could run... I'm just not sure all the moulds exist anymore or where they all are.Use the old body moulds, cos the looks of all of the range going back to the earliest examples are still "spot on". But stick with the Ford engines for reliability accesss to spares??
Needs someone to wrestle the ownership from Mr Smolensky and put a bit of a cash injection.
I was sure that NS didn't have them all and some guys (like TVR Power maybe) had access to some.
I'd love a T350C with a nice V8 up front!
I hope NS does the right thing and sells the rights to the car stuff, even if he keeps the name!
I do like the idea of TVR kits; in theory it does sound like a good idea; if the original moulds could be found, and if they’re still in good enough shape to make a few quality bodies to allow for some sort of cash flow to begin, then new moulds could be made at a later date.
But I know some of the early TVR’s are now of an age where finding parts is becoming difficult and expensive, so the “New Kit TVR” would have to be based on newer donor cars; which would involve a lot of re-engineering; which in its self isn’t a bad thing because if it was done correctly you could re-engineer out all the poor quality and bad mechanicals of the early stuff and build a quality product, which would be a lot more reliable.
But then you’re down to price, how much would all this development cost? And what would the final TOTAL build cost be?
I know Mr Smolensky threw millions at the TVR brand and failed, but I’m sure the redevelopment of one TVR could be done for considerably less, if the budget was spent wisely.
Final build cost? Tricky one this because it’s depends on the parts you use; so for example if the S3 was reengineered and used parts similar to say an Ultima, I think the end result would be stunning, but would cost £35-£50K.
Is there a market for a TVR S3 with Ultima parts, at that price without the original TVR brand to go with it? Would people prefer to restore an original S3 for the same price? Which would be worth more a few years? I’m sure the original would go up in price, where as a kit would not?
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Which TVR model would you pick, and what parts do you want? What do you think?
I will throw in one point; personally I really would NOT like the idea of making any TVR body shell and grafting it onto a Mazda MX-5. If a TVR kit were to be done, I really think it should copy, as close as possible, to the original.
But I know some of the early TVR’s are now of an age where finding parts is becoming difficult and expensive, so the “New Kit TVR” would have to be based on newer donor cars; which would involve a lot of re-engineering; which in its self isn’t a bad thing because if it was done correctly you could re-engineer out all the poor quality and bad mechanicals of the early stuff and build a quality product, which would be a lot more reliable.
But then you’re down to price, how much would all this development cost? And what would the final TOTAL build cost be?
I know Mr Smolensky threw millions at the TVR brand and failed, but I’m sure the redevelopment of one TVR could be done for considerably less, if the budget was spent wisely.
Final build cost? Tricky one this because it’s depends on the parts you use; so for example if the S3 was reengineered and used parts similar to say an Ultima, I think the end result would be stunning, but would cost £35-£50K.
Is there a market for a TVR S3 with Ultima parts, at that price without the original TVR brand to go with it? Would people prefer to restore an original S3 for the same price? Which would be worth more a few years? I’m sure the original would go up in price, where as a kit would not?
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Which TVR model would you pick, and what parts do you want? What do you think?
I will throw in one point; personally I really would NOT like the idea of making any TVR body shell and grafting it onto a Mazda MX-5. If a TVR kit were to be done, I really think it should copy, as close as possible, to the original.
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