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jason61c

1,422 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
You could build a 4cyl GKD legend for not much at all... 150bhp out the box.

http://www.gkdsportscars.com/

Great company to deal with and a great product. Also the engine will run on its donor ecu saving about £1k in ECU and mapping costs smile

jeffw

615 posts

114 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Steffan said:
3) The Jeremy Phillips designed Mojo, Mojo Mojo SE ought to fit this bill I think. Or possibly a Riot. Good designer I regret his retirement.
Jeremy hasn't retired....at least not yet.

KDIcarmad

Original Poster:

703 posts

37 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
SystemParanoia said:
this for £10k would do me nicely




mid Busa Engine, 4wd, awesome biggrin
Interesting but not very practical. I doubt this is the future for the industry. How many people need a one seat race car! How many would buy one?

SystemParanoia

9,696 posts

84 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
fair enough... but i'd really like the 4x4 biggrin

Kentmagpie

62 posts

30 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
jason61c said:
You could build a 4cyl GKD legend for not much at all... 150bhp out the box.

http://www.gkdsportscars.com/

Great company to deal with and a great product. Also the engine will run on its donor ecu saving about £1k in ECU and mapping costs smile
Dunno if this was aimed at me previous post cos if it was I'm looking for bike power :-)
Advertisement

qdos

757 posts

96 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
KDIcarmad said:
I remember a Midas Gold convertable on the front cover of Car. Is this the last time a kit car had that honour?
Well how about with the likes of Gumpert, Aerial Konigsegg http://www.theestd.com/automotive/
and yes the front cover of TopGear magazine though yes it was in India but a cracking write up all the same....





Oh and on National Television over there too.

cymtriks

4,070 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
jas xjr said:
I was really interested in the chap making a replica vw camper . Any updates ?
Building what the public want , and not more 7 clones please
So Sevens don't sell but a camper van kit will?

Sorry to disagree but Sevens do sell and are fairly simple to make having only minimal bodywork.

A camper van kit? Are you serious? How on Earth is this "building what the public want"?

OwenK

1,716 posts

81 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
This is a really interesting thread, great discussion going on here.

Earlier in the thread there was discussion of trying to catch "the Max Power generation" - young(ish) lads who end up spending thousands on bodywork revamping and individualising relatively innocent cars. Credit to whoever said it earlier: these are people who are genuinely into cars, and have the potential to be true petrolheads - but they need a gateway.

I think I'm one of these people. I have a mk2 MR2 which I have spent what is realistically probably a couple of thousand quid on "doing up". I've fitted fibreglass parts, new wheels, even had a custom one-off bodywork component made to my own design. I'm into individuality, I suppose you could say. I loved the driving feel of the MR2, and the mid-engine two-seater layout that made it feel so "special", but I wanted one that wasn't the same as every other. In my opinion I made the outside of the car look as special as it feels - and succeeded, I think, because now young boys point excitedly and even adults turn and stare or give thumbs-up when I drive past. smile

But I digress. How does this relate to kit cars? Well, I've always been interested in kit cars - if I'm honest, mainly because of the obscurity factor; the performance is a side bonus. But here's the catch: I don't want a Seven! That's 2/3rds of the industry gone already.

In a kit car I'm looking for something really good-looking, useable day to day, unusual, and cheap. I'm not actually that bothered about performance increase as long as it has at least something to back up the looks - I'm not a particularly skilled driver, my MR2 is enough of a drive for me at the moment & anything significantly faster would likely just increase my chances of ending up in a hedge.

As someone from the modified car scene, what I can say as a main reason for people doing that rather than building kit cars is that you can break it up into such small stages. You can buy a decent base car of your choice for say £1000, and drive it a bit. Maybe fit an exhaust next month for a few hundred quid, drive it a bit more. Perhaps a front lip and sideskirts for £500-600. Suspension kit 6 months later for another few hundred. Then if you want to go further you start looking at custom bodywork, or engine swaps, or turbo/supercharger conversions... The list is endless. And the beauty is that you can do any of the above in any order you like and still drive it to work in between. Although at the end you've probably spent the same or more than you would have on building a kit car, you've used it almost every day along the way. How can a kit compete? Before it's finished and driveable it's just a very expensive pile of bits which you've had to pay in lump sums up front and see no benefit from until the build is finished!

Now I'm not slating the kit process here because obviously there is a market for that. But I think that you're just not going to attract much new blood. I've been to the shows, I've got bored of the endless Sevens and lusted after the Cobras and Stratoses but known I'll never be able to afford one without copious saving or a big old loan.

I'm getting myself a bit lost here but it's late so forgive me!

I think there is a market for rebodies. Something in particular has inspired me of late: The Acura NSX Roadster "concept" set to be used in the new Avengers superhero film.






This car, underneath, is a 1991 Honda NSX with 250,000 miles on the clock. But with just a pretty body over the top, some big wheels and some LED rear lights this would sit quite happily next to R8s and McLarens. Imagine making something similar out of a mk3 MR2 for example with the kind of bolt-on, ease of assembly that some of the Ferrari kits [apparently] have. You could buy your MR2 base car, enjoy driving it a while, buy up the bodywork (perhaps split into affordable packs) which might be gelcoated so you don't need to worry about getting it painted, and then when you're ready, bolt it all together over the course of a weekend.

I'm very interested in the idea of a rebody but I DON'T want something that is pretending to be a Ferrari or Lamborghini. But a well-styled, NEW, modern looking design, penned to flow with the wheelbase and track of the donor car rather than trying to squash an existing design onto it - that is something I could go in for.

I lean away from traditional kit cars because of the upfront expense and my lack of mechanical ability. I can bolt body panels on all day long, but I wouldn't know where to start with putting engines in things. Maybe a few years down the line, after plenty of kitcar meets and shows I would be though.

Edited by OwenK on Wednesday 18th April 23:46

qdos

757 posts

96 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
Thanks Owen for an extremely well written posting. I couldn't agree more with many of the things you have said though one point I do disagree with is that there are some easy to build kits out there and you might be surprised at which ones and how it's not that hard to build most kits.

It's really good to hear from someone who's "outside" the kit car fanzine as generally there's little to be learned by only listening to the same old people inside it harping on about the same old stuff on and on. If folk go along to some of the shows relating to 'the other cars' they will find that these are frequently huge events for example TRAX which is aimed at the young 'modders' and 'drifters' attracts tens of thousands of visitors including their cars at Silverstone as a venue. A few of us kit car folk do attend these too :-)

I'd easily go on about my thoughts on how we can improve interest in kits but Owen's said it so well here above. Though I would like to say that we do need to show younger generations that building things with your own hands is not difficult and can be done by most anyone.

Kentmagpie

62 posts

30 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
OwenK said:
This is a really interesting thread, great discussion going on here.






In a kit car I'm looking for something really good-looking, useable day to day, unusual, and cheap. I'm not actually that bothered about performance increase as long as it has at least something to back up the looks - I'm not a particularly skilled driver, my MR2 is enough of a drive for me at the moment & anything significantly faster would likely just increase my chances of ending up in a hedge.

As someone from the modified car scene, what I can say as a main reason for people doing that rather than building kit cars is that you can break it up into such small stages. You can buy a decent base car of your choice for say £1000, and drive it a bit. Maybe fit an exhaust next month for a few hundred quid, drive it a bit more. Perhaps a front lip and sideskirts for £500-600. Suspension kit 6 months later for another few hundred. Then if you want to go further you start looking at custom bodywork, or engine swaps, or turbo/supercharger conversions... The list is endless. And the beauty is that you can do any of the above in any order you like and still drive it to work in between. Although at the end you've probably spent the same or more than you would have on building a kit car, you've used it almost every day along the way. How can a kit compete? Before it's finished and driveable it's just a very expensive pile of bits which you've had to pay in lump sums up front and see no benefit from until the build is finished!

Now I'm not slating the kit process here because obviously there is a market for that. But I think that you're just not going to attract much new blood. I've been to the shows, I've got bored of the endless Sevens and lusted after the Cobras and Stratoses but known I'll never be able to afford one without copious saving or a big old loan.


Imagine making something similar out of a mk3 MR2 for example with the kind of bolt-on, ease of assembly that some of the Ferrari kits [apparently] have. You could buy your MR2 base car, enjoy driving it a while, buy up the bodywork (perhaps split into affordable packs) which might be gelcoated so you don't need to worry about getting it painted, and then when you're ready, bolt it all together over the course of a weekend.

I'm very interested in the idea of a rebody but I DON'T want something that is pretending to be a Ferrari or Lamborghini. But a well-styled, NEW, modern looking design, penned to flow with the wheelbase and track of the donor car rather than trying to squash an existing design onto it - that is something I could go in for.

I lean away from traditional kit cars because of the upfront expense and my lack of mechanical ability. I can bolt body panels on all day long, but I wouldn't know where to start with putting engines in things. Maybe a few years down the line, after plenty of kitcar meets and shows I would be though.

Edited by OwenK on Wednesday 18th April 23:46
Why dont u look at mevltd.co.uk, they've been taking mx5's and remodelling them. Gives u an idea at what can be done at a low cost :-) For me its about performance and having sweaty plams and heart racing everytime i get out my car and the only way i get my kick is from a bike engined car :-)

Russ Bost

424 posts

95 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
cymtriks said:
So Sevens don't sell but a camper van kit will?

Sorry to disagree but Sevens do sell and are fairly simple to make having only minimal bodywork.

A camper van kit? Are you serious? How on Earth is this "building what the public want"?
Well having been to a VW event last w/e, I certainly don't doubt the continued popularity of the Camper van (I don't understand it, but denying it would be daft), tho' quite how most of them negotiate a speed bump I have no idea. One thing they were brilliant at was rotting away almost in front of your eyes so a fibreglass version could certainly have some appeal to those that are fed up with having rot holes regularly welded or fibreglassed up.

I think the point being made with regard to 7's is simply that every single potential niche of, bike engine, car engine, Sierra/BMW/Mazda donor, inboard suspension, camber compensation, locost weld your own chassis, expensive kit supplied in ready to build packs like meccano etc etc ad infinitum has been done & what the industry wants is new designs & new blood, not yet another revamp of what is now a very, very old (& I think outdated) concept. If the industry does not expand outside the 7's & Cobra market it will dwindle away to virtually nothing.

There's currently plenty of interest in Exo's, I suspect that will be relatively short lived as I can't imagine they are pleasant to live with, it's easy enough to get a puddle planted in your lap with a 7, surely it has to be worse with almost no bodywork at all? To say nothing of the Atom frying your feet as they've parked the rad at the front with holes thro' the front firewall immediately behind it - must be very pleasant in Summer!!

Trying to fill holes already largely occupied by the mainstream manufacturers is pointless given their £million budgets for R & D, so that only leaves us with niche markets which they wouldn't be interested in as too small a volume for them.

I feel the way forward is vehicles that can be MSVA'd, panel conversions that don't need IVA, very high performance/relatively low cost cars largely aimed at the trackday market, vehicles that can be built on one floorplan/chassis, but carry different bodies depending on intended use - takes much of the cost out of having several models whilst keeping versatility & diversity. Simple single donor conversions that sort of thing. All IMHO of course

Kentmagpie

62 posts

30 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
Russ Bost said:
I feel the way forward is vehicles that can be MSVA'd, panel conversions that don't need IVA, very high performance/relatively low cost cars largely aimed at the trackday market, vehicles that can be built on one floorplan/chassis, but carry different bodies depending on intended use - takes much of the cost out of having several models whilst keeping versatility & diversity. Simple single donor conversions that sort of thing. All IMHO of course
Agree with this, it's either having the dosh to set this up or putting it forward to existing manufacturers that's the issue.

fuoriserie

4,276 posts

155 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
Russ Bost said:
I feel the way forward is vehicles that can be MSVA'd, panel conversions that don't need IVA, very high performance/relatively low cost cars largely aimed at the trackday market, vehicles that can be built on one floorplan/chassis, but carry different bodies depending on intended use - takes much of the cost out of having several models whilst keeping versatility & diversity. Simple single donor conversions that sort of thing. All IMHO of course
I agree with you...smile

fuoriserie

4,276 posts

155 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
For those that missed this thread, you can find a lot of interesting info and considerations:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

The Black Flash

5,644 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
Kentmagpie said:
Id love to own a car I've built but nearly all the manufacturers I've spoke to have said my budget is to small and they were:

Mac#1 motorsports
Mnr
Dax
Raw
Sylva

That basically leaves MK which I have already owned one which although I loved was cheap in places and Aries I think. Unless u can give me a heads up to other kits??? Any help appreciated :-)
Have you tried over on the locostbuilders forum? You'll find folks there building things on a shoestring right up to stupid-expensive. I've not looked in detail at what's available for a few years now, but there's GBS for one who's not in your list.

Nikolai

155 posts

32 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
OwenK said:
As someone from the modified car scene, what I can say as a main reason for people doing that rather than building kit cars is that you can break it up into such small stages. You can buy a decent base car of your choice for say £1000, and drive it a bit. Maybe fit an exhaust next month for a few hundred quid, drive it a bit more. Perhaps a front lip and sideskirts for £500-600. Suspension kit 6 months later for another few hundred. Then if you want to go further you start looking at custom bodywork, or engine swaps, or turbo/supercharger conversions... The list is endless. And the beauty is that you can do any of the above in any order you like and still drive it to work in between. Although at the end you've probably spent the same or more than you would have on building a kit car, you've used it almost every day along the way. How can a kit compete? Before it's finished and driveable it's just a very expensive pile of bits which you've had to pay in lump sums up front and see no benefit from until the build is finished!
Great post - I had forgotten about the doing-it-in-stages thing while still being able to drive it. I was actually drawing some ideas for an Mr2 mk3 kit last night, but they won't turn into real life for a while due to other stuff, but Mr2 is a great donor/base. Only tricky bits are the strut tops and door/dash line being quite high for a svelte road racer style of kit but definitely worth exploring further.

Kentmagpie

62 posts

30 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
The Black Flash said:
Have you tried over on the locostbuilders forum? You'll find folks there building things on a shoestring right up to stupid-expensive. I've not looked in detail at what's available for a few years now, but there's GBS for one who's not in your list.
Just generally thought they were designed for car engines but I'll probably give them a shout to c wot they say. Cheers

Laughingman21

582 posts

97 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
The main problem is cost.

I spent a year or more looking at buying a kit car, but unless you want an exo-skeleton car (i.e. the Exocet), you're looking at £7k plus to get something on the road (e.g. the GKD Legend).

As a complete beginner, this was a large financial risk to take when I had no idea whether I had the skills or time to complete the project.

In the end I bought a Triumph Spitfire to restore. I've still got a car to work on and develope a mechanical understanding and end up with a sports car, but this should all cost £2k. That's a hell of a saving on then cheap end of the kit car market, let alone the expensive end.

I know my Spitfire won't be as fast as your average kit car, but as it's from the era that our speed limits were set, I'm far more likely not to end up losing my license.

KDIcarmad

Original Poster:

703 posts

37 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
fuoriserie said:
Russ Bost said:
I feel the way forward is vehicles that can be MSVA'd, panel conversions that don't need IVA, very high performance/relatively low cost cars largely aimed at the trackday market, vehicles that can be built on one floorplan/chassis, but carry different bodies depending on intended use - takes much of the cost out of having several models whilst keeping versatility & diversity. Simple single donor conversions that sort of thing. All IMHO of course
I agree with you...smile
I have felt for a number of years that the MSVA offer designer more freedom than IVA. Sadly this has not been used yet. The only reason I can see for this is the popular image of three wheeled cars as funny things that roll over, thank you Reliant. An image that is both wrong, out of date and agnors the classic Morgans.

It is interesting to note that the Morgan's were cheap cars. Some of the 1930's cheapest cars, yet they had performance to better most. The first car to lap Brooklands at an adverage speed was a Morgan, the second a Bently! Cheap/low cost cars can offer a lot. Those 30's cars are still quick by modern standars.




Steffan

9,247 posts

114 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th April 2012 quote quote all
Laughingman21 said:
The main problem is cost.

I spent a year or more looking at buying a kit car, but unless you want an exo-skeleton car (i.e. the Exocet), you're looking at £7k plus to get something on the road (e.g. the GKD Legend).

As a complete beginner, this was a large financial risk to take when I had no idea whether I had the skills or time to complete the project.

In the end I bought a Triumph Spitfire to restore. I've still got a car to work on and develope a mechanical understanding and end up with a sports car, but this should all cost £2k. That's a hell of a saving on then cheap end of the kit car market, let alone the expensive end.

I know my Spitfire won't be as fast as your average kit car, but as it's from the era that our speed limits were set, I'm far more likely not to end up losing my license.
Interesting post.

I do agree cost one of the primary problems.

A fully restored Spitfire would cost £2000 easily but it will also be worth at least that figure. I sold my last one two years go for over £3,000. It was an early Mark II which was pretty well original with the original bonnet etc and a low mileage full history car. But that gives an idea of value.

The Dutton I have with the V8 engine has probably cost me £2500 to date and is undrivable without major redesign of the chassis (not a lot of that) and and LSD its undrivable. Say £3500 all in.

I would not pay £3,000 for it if I were buying it in. I would expect to get £2,00 to £2500 if I was selling it which I am not.

Similarly my JC Locost must owe me £3,500 and again when finished will probably be worth less. Certainly no more.

My reason for posting these actual example is that I believe they reflect the reality of costs. New kit cars subject to IVA are costly and once built and road legal not necessarily good sellers. An unwelcome truth to all KC enthusiasts but if we are to get anywhere with this we must identify the root causes.

I admire the efforts of Qdos and other to make really worthwhile Kit cars like the Deronda, which is a real rocket and well worth a serious look, and the Midas of which marque I have two mainly because I like the robust compact ability of those cars.

I too really enjoyed the posting by OwenK about his ideas and the Kit car he featured in some detail the Acura NSX Roadster. What a car.

But what would it cost. A great deal of money I suspect and I would be very interested to see just how much an on the road car would cost.

Then there is the problem of IVA which is IMO a major stumbling block with modern kit cars. I have put several through IVA and it is not an easy process at all.

There are cars worth considering which can be got on the road for a reasonable price.

The MEV X5 being an excellent example, Stuart Mills has once again produced an excellent kit car which has real advantages with different body styles and real flexibility in giving the kit builder a real choice of finished product.

I have`seen various comments and concerns that the Hot Hatch brigade are attracted to their fashion statements by the ability to improve the car steadily and keep the car on the road during the build process. Regrettably I can see this as another reason why kit cars are not always the first choice of car enthusiasts and something else for the Kit Car enthusiast to recognise.

Finally Russ Bost, Kentmagpie and furorsierie have all commented the panel fit, non IVA Kit Car should be making an impression on the Kit Car scene. I really do hope it will.
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