Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
Hi!
Most of you say that kit-car market has dropped a lot! Is there any numbers how big it was in 1990-s or in 2000-s and how big is it now?
Is it true that almost all kit cars were sport cars mostly used for track racing and weekend driving?
What do you say about little city kit car that would be usable every day and would be cheaper than, lets say VW Up, and have better fuel economy and be nicer and funner to drive?
Regards
Most of you say that kit-car market has dropped a lot! Is there any numbers how big it was in 1990-s or in 2000-s and how big is it now?
Is it true that almost all kit cars were sport cars mostly used for track racing and weekend driving?
What do you say about little city kit car that would be usable every day and would be cheaper than, lets say VW Up, and have better fuel economy and be nicer and funner to drive?
Regards
figor said:
Hi!
What do you say about little city kit car that would be usable every day and would be cheaper than, lets say VW Up, and have better fuel economy and be nicer and funner to drive?
Regards
I'd say it would be impossible to bring to the market at a price and level of finish that would be worthwhile. What do you say about little city kit car that would be usable every day and would be cheaper than, lets say VW Up, and have better fuel economy and be nicer and funner to drive?
Regards
figor said:
Hi!
Most of you say that kit-car market has dropped a lot! Is there any numbers how big it was in 1990-s or in 2000-s and how big is it now?
Is it true that almost all kit cars were sport cars mostly used for track racing and weekend driving?
What do you say about little city kit car that would be usable every day and would be cheaper than, lets say VW Up, and have better fuel economy and be nicer and funner to drive?
Regards
The Up is £10,000 ish new, does 70mpg and has air con etc.Most of you say that kit-car market has dropped a lot! Is there any numbers how big it was in 1990-s or in 2000-s and how big is it now?
Is it true that almost all kit cars were sport cars mostly used for track racing and weekend driving?
What do you say about little city kit car that would be usable every day and would be cheaper than, lets say VW Up, and have better fuel economy and be nicer and funner to drive?
Regards
I think you would struggle to improve on that.
Kit cars enjoyed some success in the past as a number of things came together. There are now barriers to prevent kit car success together with far more choice over a wider range of vehicles at a level of quality, finish and value for money that no kit car builder could compete with. I believe this is what put an end to the productionised kit cars such as TVR and Marcos.
Kit cars were an option when cars would end their life through structural corrosion but now they tend to end as a result of complex or expensive electro-mechanical failure.
Low volume production methods are labour intensive and consequently expensive.
Kit cars were an option when cars would end their life through structural corrosion but now they tend to end as a result of complex or expensive electro-mechanical failure.
Low volume production methods are labour intensive and consequently expensive.
I think there could be a market for interesting eco cars, using existing drivetrains in an eco shaped body. Keep it simple & light, with a body shape along the lines of the VW XL-1 or an inline tandem two seater narrow body thing.
Even a se7en type car could have an aero'd body applied to it, think plastic bodies of RC cars for simplicity & weight saving.
Even a se7en type car could have an aero'd body applied to it, think plastic bodies of RC cars for simplicity & weight saving.
Haven't read through the whole thread, just the first couple of pages, so forgive me if some of my points have been covered already.
Perhaps some lessons could be learned from the LAA. Many light aircraft flying in the UK are home built, and as such are not subject to such stringent regulation as factory built equivalents. Is there an umbrella organisation lobbying for kit car builders and manufacturers? I have started a (potentially) seven year build of a Vans RV8. It is a complete kit (less avionics) with a couple of engine options, and offers a level of performance way above most things you can 'buy' at double the price. I suppose it is the aircraft equivalent of a 911. Fast, comfortable over long distances, and still able to put a smile on your face round a track.
I have considered building a kit car several times, and when my boy (or my girl!) is a little older a Caterham is definitely on the list as a bit of a summer project. I have also considered an Ultima at times, and may yet look at it more seriously once the aircraft is finished - I suppose it is the nearest kit car to my kit aircraft. I also like the Tiger HSS, and quite fancy one for the occasional hill-climb/sprint.
However, what I have never considered, and what doesn't appeal to me in the slightest is some ex-Ford Sierra with badly fitted fibreglass mouldings and a Q-plate. I realise this is a bit unfair and there are many better kits out there but this is still the problem with most kit cars - the image. I would never build a road kit which required a donor car. I don't want to traipse around scrap yards looking for a final drive or uprights from some long dead rust heap. Again, I apologise if this is inaccurate, but this is the perception of many people when you mention kit cars. I want the factory to supply everything, down to the last nut and bolt.
I also think kit car producers need to look past aesthetics, and offer something which is genuinely different to the rest of the market. This is obviously more difficult than it sounds, and by offering something very different they are by definition limiting their potential appeal. I think Z-cars have a great product, which is different enough, but still recognisable as a great car, and carries the spirit of the mini much better than the MINI. It's a shame they are not more aggressively marketed.
But here is the crux of the problem. I am a hands-on professional engineer (non-automotive). I have a good level of disposable income. I like cars, and in particular, small quick ones. I have no desire to own some Italian exotica. So why am I not buying a kit car. If 99% of them don't appeal to me, then I honestly don't know how they will ever appeal to a mass market.
Anyway, apologies if this doesn't come across as a very coherent argument, I'm still a little fragile from last nights Christmas do.
Perhaps some lessons could be learned from the LAA. Many light aircraft flying in the UK are home built, and as such are not subject to such stringent regulation as factory built equivalents. Is there an umbrella organisation lobbying for kit car builders and manufacturers? I have started a (potentially) seven year build of a Vans RV8. It is a complete kit (less avionics) with a couple of engine options, and offers a level of performance way above most things you can 'buy' at double the price. I suppose it is the aircraft equivalent of a 911. Fast, comfortable over long distances, and still able to put a smile on your face round a track.
I have considered building a kit car several times, and when my boy (or my girl!) is a little older a Caterham is definitely on the list as a bit of a summer project. I have also considered an Ultima at times, and may yet look at it more seriously once the aircraft is finished - I suppose it is the nearest kit car to my kit aircraft. I also like the Tiger HSS, and quite fancy one for the occasional hill-climb/sprint.
However, what I have never considered, and what doesn't appeal to me in the slightest is some ex-Ford Sierra with badly fitted fibreglass mouldings and a Q-plate. I realise this is a bit unfair and there are many better kits out there but this is still the problem with most kit cars - the image. I would never build a road kit which required a donor car. I don't want to traipse around scrap yards looking for a final drive or uprights from some long dead rust heap. Again, I apologise if this is inaccurate, but this is the perception of many people when you mention kit cars. I want the factory to supply everything, down to the last nut and bolt.
I also think kit car producers need to look past aesthetics, and offer something which is genuinely different to the rest of the market. This is obviously more difficult than it sounds, and by offering something very different they are by definition limiting their potential appeal. I think Z-cars have a great product, which is different enough, but still recognisable as a great car, and carries the spirit of the mini much better than the MINI. It's a shame they are not more aggressively marketed.
But here is the crux of the problem. I am a hands-on professional engineer (non-automotive). I have a good level of disposable income. I like cars, and in particular, small quick ones. I have no desire to own some Italian exotica. So why am I not buying a kit car. If 99% of them don't appeal to me, then I honestly don't know how they will ever appeal to a mass market.
Anyway, apologies if this doesn't come across as a very coherent argument, I'm still a little fragile from last nights Christmas do.
LimaDelta said:
I have considered building a kit car several times, and when my boy (or my girl!) is a little older a Caterham is definitely on the list as a bit of a summer project. I have also considered an Ultima at times, and may yet look at it more seriously once the aircraft is finished - I suppose it is the nearest kit car to my kit aircraft.
I don't want to traipse around scrap yards looking for a final drive or uprights from some long dead rust heap. Again, I apologise if this is inaccurate, but this is the perception of many people when you mention kit cars. I want the factory to supply everything, down to the last nut and bolt.
I also think kit car producers need to look past aesthetics, and offer something which is genuinely different to the rest of the market. This is obviously more difficult than it sounds, and by offering something very different they are by definition limiting their potential appeal.
If 99% of them don't appeal to me, then I honestly don't know how they will ever appeal to a mass market.
Half the fun in building a kit car is problem solving, a complete package such as what you aspire to, involves absolutely no problem solving whatsoever and as such doesn't really involve any building skill, more assembly skill, like building lego. Most people grow out of building lego.
Follow the plans, don't use any original thought and you cannot go wrong.
Where's the challenge in that?
This is why most kit cars are individually tailored to the builder's finances, wants, preferences and abilities and as such will never appeal to the mass market.
I perceive that the main problem facing kit cars is that the upcoming generations do not have the mechanical skill or understanding to build a car.
If they had any mechanical aptitude or sympathy they would not be chopping their coils springs in half so that their silver 53 plate BMW 318 with its butchered arches would be bouncing from lane to lane as it hit the bumpstops, whilst the 20 degree camber on the front and back 20 inch wheels so beloved of the proponents of "stance" caused the car to lose grip if the road was even slightly moist. ( Yes I'm talking about some idiot I followed today).
So, before the kit car industry can thrive we need to breed a new cohort of young people with not only mechanical ability, problem solving skills, and bags of initiative but with a positive dislike of lego building and rule following.
Do schools or even parents these days promote innovative and out of the box thinking amongst the young?
Cheers,
Tony
Toltec said:
The Up is £10,000 ish new, does 70mpg and has air con etc.
I think you would struggle to improve on that.
Yes I would struggle I think you would struggle to improve on that.
But my idea is to promote using of donor car as a recycling and eco friendly.
So I would base a car on small and cheep city car not older than 15 years(like Fiat Punto 2)
It would use most of suspension, glasses, interior etc, but it would be small trike based on maxi scooter powertrain.
The main goal is to make it as light as possible (max 400kg), nice looking (sporty silhouette) and cheap!
I am aiming mostly on the market of people who own a big car and need something like Smart, scooter or some other small vehicle for city use. So I don't expect from them to build the car or find a donor vehicle. I would do that, and built kit for users that would want to built it (hobbyists, kit car builders, mechanics)
I am expecting a price of around 5-6k€ for final build, around 80mpg, and lover registration (as a motorcycle)...
That is why I asked if there is any numbers about size of kit car market.
Please comment as much as you can and want to, I need to find and solve A LOT of problems !
Regards.
So 5-6k for a car that uses knackered fiat mechanicals. It would have to be pretty special.
Produce a low cost monocoque that looks stunning, goes really well and can be registered easily then you may be onto something but by the time you have done that, it will still be expensive.
The USP of a kit car is that it is possible to produce something that is appealing in low volumes cost effectively.
I really love some of the kit cars of old but I'm afraid that trying to bring cars to the market now that had the appeal of the Lotus Elan, Marcos GT etc at a price and level of finish demanded these days I just cannot see happen.
Regarding small city cars, there are so many great cars to choose from already.
Kit cars were a success when they offered something the general motor industry didn't.
Produce a low cost monocoque that looks stunning, goes really well and can be registered easily then you may be onto something but by the time you have done that, it will still be expensive.
The USP of a kit car is that it is possible to produce something that is appealing in low volumes cost effectively.
I really love some of the kit cars of old but I'm afraid that trying to bring cars to the market now that had the appeal of the Lotus Elan, Marcos GT etc at a price and level of finish demanded these days I just cannot see happen.
Regarding small city cars, there are so many great cars to choose from already.
Kit cars were a success when they offered something the general motor industry didn't.
Tony427 said:
in my opinion the majority of kit car builders like the challenge of sourcing parts from various places (including scrap yards) and getting them to fit together and perform well.
But here's the thing. This thread is not about convincing people who like kit cars to build kit cars. It is about convincing people who don't like, or have little interest in kit cars to build kit cars. Your argument reads as if the customer is wrong and needs re-educating, whereas the problem is the manufacturers are reluctant to change their product to something people actually want. Tony427 said:
Half the fun in building a kit car is problem solving, a complete package such as what you aspire to, involves absolutely no problem solving whatsoever and as such doesn't really involve any building skill, more assembly skill, like building lego. Most people grow out of building lego.
If you look at the aircraft kit I cited, while it is a complete package, down to the last rivet, there is certainly a massive element of problem solving and fabrication. See some of these build logs for example...here
and here
Decent manufacturer support and a challenging build are not mutually exclusive, and arguably the most 'successful' kit producers (i.e. Caterham, Ultima etc.) offer a complete package. There is a difference between solving a complex engineering problem, and just wasting time tracking down components. The kit car industry always will be a niche within a niche, and the 'scrapyard challenge' aspect just further limits the appeal for many.
Edited by LimaDelta on Sunday 15th December 07:41
And what do you say about idea to make kits for used cars (10-15 years old) in a way that you put new powertrains (hybrid, electric etc...), redesign it to look newer and change the feel of everything that customer is in contact with (interior, ride handling and comfort, entertainment and infotainment, safety etc.). And you do all that in about 20 years when oil crises comes to developing countries and maybe third world, and most of the people wont have money for basic private transportation...
So you could compete with a prices of new hybrid/low energy cars with rebuild old ones.
Electric or hybrid cars wont go under 20-30k€ and you can find lot of cars for a fraction of price, that are just outdated, but still, its chassis and suspension elements are in perfect-usable condition to drive for next 20 years. Only the design, gadgets and powertrain technology changed.
Regards.
So you could compete with a prices of new hybrid/low energy cars with rebuild old ones.
Electric or hybrid cars wont go under 20-30k€ and you can find lot of cars for a fraction of price, that are just outdated, but still, its chassis and suspension elements are in perfect-usable condition to drive for next 20 years. Only the design, gadgets and powertrain technology changed.
Regards.
figor said:
And what do you say about idea to make kits for used cars (10-15 years old) in a way that you put new powertrains (hybrid, electric etc...), redesign it to look newer and change the feel of everything that customer is in contact with (interior, ride handling and comfort, entertainment and infotainment, safety etc.). And you do all that in about 20 years when oil crises comes to developing countries.
Love the idea but by the time it gets to market, it will be too expensive. Re oil crisis, with developments in oil and gas extraction, we are far more than 20 years away from a crisis. In real terms, energy isn't even expensive in the first world. The markets are manipulated in a way that the poor get poorer and the rich get richer out of energy but that had always been the way.
I wish it wasn't the case but I just don't see any future for low volume car manufacture at anything other than the high end. Maybe kit cars could find a place there but that's about it. The days of getting a Mini Marcos shell and turning your rotting mini into a weekend racer over a couple of weekends are gone. The days of getting a Dutton body chassis and nipping down to the scrap yard and having a running road legal car just for fun are gone.
The great kits of the past are rising in value at a great rate. Try and get a wooden chassis Marcos, even a V4 for less than 10 figures and see what you get. An old Elan is now even more expensive. To recreate the same or better costs even more.
LimaDelta said:
But here's the thing. This thread is not about convincing people who like kit cars to build kit cars. It is about convincing people who don't like, or have little interest in kit cars to build kit cars. Your argument reads as if the customer is wrong and needs re-educating, whereas the problem is the manufacturers are reluctant to change their product to something people actually want.
What the thread is about is in the title, whether it be finding new customers or getting existing builders to build again.The customer most definitely IS wrong. That's why marketing and advertising exist. If it wasn't for the advertising (read brainwashing), a lot more people would laugh at the designs coming from the mainstream manufacturers. How can someone look at a VW or a BMW 1 series and say it is good looking? (I apologise to the free-thinking owners of said vehicles)
You can produce something that the public thinks it wants, or tell them what it wants.
Maybe marketing is partly where the kit industry should be grouping together and focusing?
LimaDelta said:
If you look at the aircraft kit I cited, while it is a complete package, down to the last rivet, there is certainly a massive element of problem solving and fabrication. See some of these build logs for example...
I'd be surprised if the aviation authority allows so much deviation or re-engineering of kit planes, but you know better. I imagine kit cars allow many more options to use some innovation and problem solving, simply due to the seriousness of a flying machine failing in flight compared to a breakdown on a country lane with a car.LimaDelta said:
Decent manufacturer support and a challenging build are not mutually exclusive, and arguably the most 'successful' kit producers (i.e. Caterham, Ultima etc.) offer a complete package. There is a difference between solving a complex engineering problem, and just wasting time tracking down components. The kit car industry always will be a niche within a niche, and the 'scrapyard challenge' aspect just further limits the appeal for many.
Offering a complete package is obviously better, but as someone said earlier, some people enjoy hunting down parts themselves and don't find it a waste of time. Other people are happy to buy a finished kit car, and so they do.I enjoy building things, finding solutions, and coming up with improvements. I also really enjoy driving quickly.
Which niche is the kit car industry (itself a niche) in? One too many niches for dramatic affect?
The industry is partly there from the days when boring everyday cars (still lots of those about) used to rust, and one had the option of saving the good mechanical parts and putting them into something usually lighter, and hence improving the performance and prolonging one's enjoyment. Cars were always fairly expensive in the UK and economics may have played a part in the decision to build.
These days cars are not rusting away as quickly as before, offer pretty good performance, and it's easier to get credit for a new one, so it's a very difficult situation for the kit industry.
The industry should offer something unique (in the form of styling and innovation), and also fight the OEMs with their own weapons, by using marketing. Persuade people that aspiring to a new VW, Ford, etc, is sad.
Now I could really have fun doing that.
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