Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

Author
Discussion

Tony427

2,873 posts

233 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
dandare said:
The industry should offer something unique (in the form of styling and innovation), and also fight the OEMs with their own weapons, by using marketing. Persuade people that aspiring to a new VW, Ford, etc, is sad.
Now I could really have fun doing that.
When we are out and about in our collection of scrap yard components we have a little game of spotting suitable exotica and childishly shouting out
"Bought Car"

The Unique Selling Point of kit cars is that you don't buy your car, you build it. As the strapline to the adverts I'd put out would say,

" Anyone can buy a car......."


Cheers,

Tony

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
dandare said:
The customer most definitely IS wrong. That's why marketing and advertising exist. If it wasn't for the advertising (read brainwashing), a lot more people would laugh at the designs coming from the mainstream manufacturers. How can someone look at a VW or a BMW 1 series and say it is good looking? (I apologise to the free-thinking owners of said vehicles)
You can produce something that the public thinks it wants, or tell them what it wants.
Maybe marketing is partly where the kit industry should be grouping together and focusing?
And do you have any idea what a manufacturer like VW or BMW spend on brainwashing people into wanting their products? I honestly don't think we can expect the largest kit car producers to come close to even 1% of that figure. Do people want a 1-series? No, not really. They want an M5 but can't afford it. So they buy a 1-series because maybe they think that they can convince their shallow mates that it's almost the same. Where are the halo kit cars? Ultima? Caterham? I agree that marketing and awareness are the key areas that kit car manufacturers need to look at, but how are they going to convince people? If they want to sell kits then they need to make it easy. You can still keep rummaging around in auto jumbles if you like, but you'll continue to shut out other potential buyers if the industry insists that is the only way.

dandare said:
I'd be surprised if the aviation authority allows so much deviation or re-engineering of kit planes, but you know better. I imagine kit cars allow many more options to use some innovation and problem solving, simply due to the seriousness of a flying machine failing in flight compared to a breakdown on a country lane with a car.
You would indeed be surprised. The inspection process is more detailed during the build (than a car, which is generally only inspected at the end), but modifications are certainly possible after approval, and some smaller aircraft can be built without any inspection or regulation at all (SSDR). Even the kit I am building has the option of side-by-side or tandem seating (essentially the same aircraft), tilt or slide canopy, raised turtle deck, three approved engine options, fixed or wobbly prop, inverted oil systems, smoke, autopilots, avionics, interior fit, etc. etc. Over 8000 built worldwide and very few are the same.

dandare said:
Offering a complete package is obviously better, but as someone said earlier, some people enjoy hunting down parts themselves and don't find it a waste of time. Other people are happy to buy a finished kit car, and so they do.
I enjoy building things, finding solutions, and coming up with improvements. I also really enjoy driving quickly.
Which niche is the kit car industry (itself a niche) in? One too many niches for dramatic affect?

The industry is partly there from the days when boring everyday cars (still lots of those about) used to rust, and one had the option of saving the good mechanical parts and putting them into something usually lighter, and hence improving the performance and prolonging one's enjoyment. Cars were always fairly expensive in the UK and economics may have played a part in the decision to build.
These days cars are not rusting away as quickly as before, offer pretty good performance, and it's easier to get credit for a new one, so it's a very difficult situation for the kit industry.
The industry should offer something unique (in the form of styling and innovation), and also fight the OEMs with their own weapons, by using marketing. Persuade people that aspiring to a new VW, Ford, etc, is sad.
Now I could really have fun doing that.
I agree, there will always be people who want to hunt down parts, and that option will always be available, but to widen the appeal the process needs to be easier and more fun. The niche is that for 90% of people cars are white goods. The other 10% may have an interest in cars, but could still be constrained by family/financial/work commitments. Then there are the maybe 1% who actually have a weekend fun car for recreational purposes. How are you going to convince them that your offering is better than the Elise/MX-5/Boxster/etc. on their drive? Especially without the big testing and development budgets of the big players, dealer network safety nets and halo cars, never mind the marketing budgets already mentioned.

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Tony427 said:
When we are out and about in our collection of scrap yard components we have a little game of spotting suitable exotica and childishly shouting out
"Bought Car"

The Unique Selling Point of kit cars is that you don't buy your car, you build it. As the strapline to the adverts I'd put out would say,

" Anyone can buy a car......."
I'm sorry, but that is just cringe-worthy. Anyone can buy a car. Similarly anyone can build a car, but most choose not too. It's that kind of reverse snobbery which puts people off the kit car scene. What would you shout if you came across someone driving a real Cobra which they'd bought, when you were our and about in your collection of scrap yard components? It would be very cynical of me to suggest you chose to build one so you could feel superior, and nothing to do with the fact you couldn't afford the real deal.

Tony427

2,873 posts

233 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
Similarly anyone can build a car, but most choose not too.
I think you'll find that that is a wildly inaccurate statement.

And thank you for second guessing the reason why I built a Cobra, or to be exact three Cobra's, and a Marlin, oh and a speedboat, and restored a I966 Jaguar S type.......Yep it was so i could feel superior, not because I enjoy it.

Enjoy your lego.

Cheers,

Tony

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Tony427 said:
I think you'll find that that is a wildly inaccurate statement.

And thank you for second guessing the reason why I built a Cobra, or to be exact three Cobra's, and a Marlin, oh and a speedboat, and restored a I966 Jaguar S type.......Yep it was so i could feel superior, not because I enjoy it.

Enjoy your lego.

Cheers,

Tony
Good for you. But what makes you think you are doing something that anyone else couldn't do given enough time or interest? Do you genuinely think it is because you are smarter than them? I hope not but fear that is exactly the reason. All so you can shout silly insults at people driving real cars.

I will enjoy my lego. I will enjoy it at 200 mph in the clear blue sky and in the company of some fine like-minded engineers. And not a scrapyard in sight.

The kit build aircraft industry is thriving. The kit built car industry is scratching it's head wondering why nobody is looking at them. I think I can see why...



Tony427

2,873 posts

233 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
Tony427 said:
I think you'll find that that is a wildly inaccurate statement.

And thank you for second guessing the reason why I built a Cobra, or to be exact three Cobra's, and a Marlin, oh and a speedboat, and restored a I966 Jaguar S type.......Yep it was so i could feel superior, not because I enjoy it.

Enjoy your lego.

Cheers,

Tony
Good for you. But what makes you think you are doing something that anyone else couldn't do given enough time or interest? Do you genuinely think it is because you are smarter than them? I hope not but fear that is exactly the reason. All so you can shout silly insults at people driving real cars.

I will enjoy my lego. I will enjoy it at 200 mph in the clear blue sky and in the company of some fine like-minded engineers. And not a scrapyard in sight.

The kit build aircraft industry is thriving. The kit built car industry is scratching it's head wondering why nobody is looking at them. I think I can see why...
So lets get this right, according to your good self , a "fine like minded engineer" I build kit cars because I think I'm more intelligent than anyone else.

You, in seven years time may build a Caterham.

But then again you may build an Ultima.

But then again you may build a Tiger.

In contrast I've bought and built four kit Cars.

I've helped, at the last count, 35 people throughout the world wire up their 1UZFE's in their own kit cars. Even one in a plane in South Africa.

See I'm not prejudiced.

And yet I'm the embodyment of everything thats wrong with the kit car industry. Yes, the last thing the Kit car industry needs at the moment is someone who actually buys kits and components and puts their money where their mouth is.

You on the other hand have all the answers.

And you say that I'm the one with a superiority problem.

Cheers,

Tony








LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Tony427 said:
So lets get this right, according to your good self , a "fine like minded engineer" I build kit cars because I think I'm more intelligent than anyone else.

You, in seven years time may build a Caterham.

But then again you may build an Ultima.

But then again you may build a Tiger.

In contrast I've bought and built four kit Cars.

I've helped, at the last count, 35 people throughout the world wire up their 1UZFE's in their own kit cars. Even one in a plane in South Africa.

See I'm not prejudiced.

And yet I'm the embodyment of everything thats wrong with the kit car industry. Yes, the last thing the Kit car industry needs at the moment is someone who actually buys kits and components and puts their money where their mouth is.

You on the other hand have all the answers.

And you say that I'm the one with a superiority problem.
No, but from the sound of it you are keeping the kit car industry going single handedly.

I offered my opinion on this thread as it seemed to be based on helping the kit car industry to attract new customers. I then went on to explain that I am a professional engineer, with a large amount of disposable income, who has half the year off work and likes cars, yet I am not building one, nor am I likely to while my extensive lego aircraft project is in progress.

I then tried to explain why someone like myself, who on paper should be the ideal kit car target, is not attracted to the majority of offerings currently being sold.

I'm sorry if you took offence, I'm sure your replica Cobras are built to a very high standard, but to say that most people are incapable of achieving the same suggests either arrogance, or that companies are not producing accessible kits. The idea behind homebuilt aircraft is that they are built for recreation and education. Education is the key word there. Vans Aircraft don't assume a customer already knows how to calculate the required edge distance for an AD4/4 rivet, but the whole process is taught throughout the build. Likewise, if kit cars are only accessible for those who already know how to build a car, then their market will always be very limited. To attract the interest of more people IMO they need to incorporate the teaching side into the build. There is nothing easy about building an aircraft, as you will notice if you look at the build logs I linked earlier, but the process is designed that the plans and drawings offer lots of help at the start, and less information as the build goes on, and offers enough a challenge to keep it interesting, but without needless frustration.

Incidentally, do you consider Caterham and Ultima 'lesser' kit cars due to their complete-package nature?

Dave Brookes

190 posts

236 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
I must join in here smile

Having looked at the web page for your flying crisp packet, it strikes me more of the aviation version of a Lowcost Super Seven (Light, fast and relatively cheap) than the 911 that you mention. I would think that a Gulfstream G150 was more 911 comparable.

It is good that you have plenty of disposable income.....and this is the problem, a great number of us in the rest of the world are on hard times due to the greed of the "well to do's" and don't have the money for car kits with all new parts, let alone aeroplane kits.
Maybe you are in the wrong forum.

The kit car industry thrives on what the masses don't like. Quirky oddball looking contraptions. Its strength is also its weakness.

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Dave Brookes said:
I must join in here smile

Having looked at the web page for your flying crisp packet, it strikes me more of the aviation version of a Lowcost Super Seven (Light, fast and relatively cheap) than the 911 that you mention. I would think that a Gulfstream G150 was more 911 comparable.

It is good that you have plenty of disposable income.....and this is the problem, a great number of us in the rest of the world are on hard times due to the greed of the "well to do's" and don't have the money for car kits with all new parts, let alone aeroplane kits.
Maybe you are in the wrong forum.

The kit car industry thrives on what the masses don't like. Quirky oddball looking contraptions. Its strength is also its weakness.
hehe They don't do homebuilt Gulfstreams sadly, my ex-boss' G550 cloud9 Maybe a Super Seven with an extended tank. Perhaps the RV10 is more 911?

Are you suggesting then that the main motive for people building kit cars is cost, and in particular, low cost performance? The Ultima website reckons on a build cost similar to a high-end Cobra, which just so happens to be Tony's thing (ETA - and yours too DB), and is probably in the same ballpark as the RV8.

Also, "thrives" is an interesting choice of words. I though the point was that the kit car industry wasn't?

Totally agree on you last sentence.

Edited by LimaDelta on Sunday 15th December 22:14

Dave Brookes

190 posts

236 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
hehe They don't do homebuilt Gulfstreams sadly, my ex-boss' G550 cloud9 Maybe a Super Seven with an extended tank. Perhaps the RV10 is more 911?

Are you suggesting then that the main motive for people building kit cars is cost, and in particular, low cost performance? The Ultima website reckons on a build cost similar to a high-end Cobra, which just so happens to be Tony's thing (ETA - and your too DB), and is probably in the same ballpark as the RV8 kit.

Also, "thrives" is an interesting choice of words. I though the point was that the kit car industry wasn't?


Edited by LimaDelta on Sunday 15th December 22:10
Yes, low cost performance is what most kit builders are looking for, combined with the build process and customisation.
Ultima pricing should say "VERY" High end Cobra. I don't think anyone builds a nice one for under £55K these days.
Other kits I can't comment on but Cobras are bought by people who want a bit of serious grunt and open top motoring (On a public road)pretty much whenever they feel like it. Not really possible in an aeroplane.

The easiest and cheapest way the kit car industry can revive sales is if all kit car owners get out and drive their kit cars and be seen (Preferably not parked up with rust stained water running from underneath it).

I'll still go with "Thrive". If it wasn't for that the industry would have been dead in the water long ago.

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Sunday 15th December 2013
quotequote all
Dave Brookes said:
Yes, low cost performance is what most kit builders are looking for, combined with the build process and customisation.
Ultima pricing should say "VERY" High end Cobra. I don't think anyone builds a nice one for under £55K these days.
Other kits I can't comment on but Cobras are bought by people who want a bit of serious grunt and open top motoring (On a public road)pretty much whenever they feel like it. Not really possible in an aeroplane.

The easiest and cheapest way the kit car industry can revive sales is if all kit car owners get out and drive their kit cars and be seen (Preferably not parked up with rust stained water running from underneath it).

I'll still go with "Thrive". If it wasn't for that the industry would have been dead in the water long ago.
Not sure what you mean by that? Obviously aircraft are not cars and vice versa. The only reason I brought up aircraft in the first place is because at the moment the homebuilt scene is popular and well managed, and also offers some really interesting unique aircraft which you simply can't buy any other way. Outside of cars and aircraft, there aren't many other toys which are built at home in high numbers. It seemed a relevant comparison to me. And with the cost you quote above, I would say the majority of homebuilt aircraft come in considerably under that figure. Engine & instruments included.

Out of interest, my build budget is split 50% engine, 25% airframe and 25% instruments and finishing. How do those ratios compare with your Cobras? Or kit cars in general?

dandare

957 posts

254 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
And do you have any idea what a manufacturer like VW or BMW spend on brainwashing people into wanting their products? I honestly don't think we can expect the largest kit car producers to come close to even 1% of that figure. Do people want a 1-series? No, not really. They want an M5 but can't afford it. So they buy a 1-series because maybe they think that they can convince their shallow mates that it's almost the same. Where are the halo kit cars? Ultima? Caterham? I agree that marketing and awareness are the key areas that kit car manufacturers need to look at, but how are they going to convince people? If they want to sell kits then they need to make it easy. You can still keep rummaging around in auto jumbles if you like, but you'll continue to shut out other potential buyers if the industry insists that is the only way.
Yes I'd be surprised if they raised 1% of the OEM budgets even if they grouped together. I didn't say it would be easy, or even possible.
I don't think car choice is often about convincing shallow mates that one is cool.
These days there are a lot of kit cars that are very well made and can be built with all or some new components depending on one's budget or wishes. That is a good thing for the industry, it just isn't working that well.

Some kits (Caterham and Ultima for instance), are actually pretty easy to build, until you start changing things. I bet a lot of the manufacturers can supply you with new parts, and never insist that you use old.

You're being a bit sensitive, calling Tony427's slogan snobbish. Yes, almost anyone can build a car or a plane, and that is one of the messages to get across. To tell someone that they should aspire to "creating" something rather than just buying it finished is quite a good thing, don't you think? Isn't it better for a child to get a Lego or Meccano set and encourage him/her to make something, rather than giving said child a toy out of the box? You are after all building a plane yourself. I bet it's very satisfying for you.


LimaDelta said:
You would indeed be surprised. The inspection process is more detailed during the build (than a car, which is generally only inspected at the end), but modifications are certainly possible after approval, and some smaller aircraft can be built without any inspection or regulation at all (SSDR). Even the kit I am building has the option of side-by-side or tandem seating (essentially the same aircraft), tilt or slide canopy, raised turtle deck, three approved engine options, fixed or wobbly prop, inverted oil systems, smoke, autopilots, avionics, interior fit, etc. etc. Over 8000 built worldwide and very few are the same.
So it sounds like there is less room for innovation due to the strict rules, but you can change it when passed. As for the SSDR regulation (or lack of), there is no equivalent to that in the kit car World, as far as I know, but maybe a pram with a lawnmower motor and a top speed of 15mph could be comparable. I imagine the options for your plane are tried and tested and not exactly groundbreaking. It's like specifying different door hinges, motor, brakes etc. which can all be done with cars.
How would the inspectors react if you had turned your plane into a triplane? How easy would it be to get a pass?


LimaDelta said:
I agree, there will always be people who want to hunt down parts, and that option will always be available, but to widen the appeal the process needs to be easier and more fun. The niche is that for 90% of people cars are white goods. The other 10% may have an interest in cars, but could still be constrained by family/financial/work commitments. Then there are the maybe 1% who actually have a weekend fun car for recreational purposes. How are you going to convince them that your offering is better than the Elise/MX-5/Boxster/etc. on their drive? Especially without the big testing and development budgets of the big players, dealer network safety nets and halo cars, never mind the marketing budgets already mentioned.
Ok, I get the niche within a niche bit, but I don't know if the 90% is correct. Did you read that somewhere?
Convincing people that your product is better, costs money. Maybe the government should be supporting some of the businesses.
A car is not that complicated and needn't have all the electronics that are stuffed into the smallest of production cars these days. You may be surprised at how inefficient large manufacturers are. They make massive mistakes, cancel projects, or mismanage them. When you read about millions of Dollars being spent on developing something, the amount of that which is wasted is usually quite high. I agree with you that to be done properly, it would cost a lot, and probably more than the kit car industry has.

On your point about driving around in kit car replicas (whether sourced from a scrappy or not). I would rather drive a kit Cobra quickly than an original.
Firstly the original is a fairly rare thing and it would be a shame to wreck it (for it's historical, and financial value).
Secondly, there are lots of (scrapyard) Cobra kits that are cheaper, of much better quality, and perform and handle way better than the originals.
It seems like a no-brainer to have a kit, unless of course I want to convince my shallow mates that I am something that I'm not.

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
dandare said:
You're being a bit sensitive, calling Tony427's slogan snobbish. Yes, almost anyone can build a car or a plane, and that is one of the messages to get across. To tell someone that they should aspire to "creating" something rather than just buying it finished is quite a good thing, don't you think?
But that is exactly my point. His slogan implies that anyone can buy a car, an not anyone can build one. That will turn off potential buyers. Surely if you want to attract business and inspire people the slogan should be "Anyone can build a car"

dandare said:
Ok, I get the niche within a niche bit, but I don't know if the 90% is correct. Did you read that somewhere?
Nope, plucked it out of thin air.

dandare said:
So it sounds like there is less room for innovation due to the strict rules, but you can change it when passed. As for the SSDR regulation (or lack of), there is no equivalent to that in the kit car World, as far as I know, but maybe a pram with a lawnmower motor and a top speed of 15mph could be comparable. I imagine the options for your plane are tried and tested and not exactly groundbreaking. It's like specifying different door hinges, motor, brakes etc. which can all be done with cars.
How would the inspectors react if you had turned your plane into a triplane? How easy would it be to get a pass?
If it started as a triplane then no problem. In fact there is a replica of the Red Baron's Fokker triplane available as SSDR. My aircraft is a fairly tried and tested method, used in WWII to produce thousands of fighter aircraft. It is the kit of choice for ex RAF/USAF fighter jocks, which to me says a lot. There is some amazing choice when it comes to homebuilds depending on your chosen mission profile. How about the Rutan canard designs? A composite high speed aircraft designed by the legend himself (head of the Virgin Galactic team), or a cub-a-like for hopping in and out of farm strips? There is certainly plenty of room for innovation. More so than cars I'd imagine, as IVA rules are fairly rigid. How come it is so difficult for single seaters to become road registered? Perhaps if the kit car world had an umbrella company lobbying for its interests like the LAA does for kit aircraft there could be more choice on the road and an easier approval process. Maybe not, just trying to offer constructive suggestions.

killerferret666

462 posts

188 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
The problem is, mass produced cars nowadays have a high end finish (in terms of plastic covering unsightly bits) and for a relatively low cost for that finish.

Also nowadays peoples time is precious to them as the world is a much faster paced place, so people want things simple, if your new car breaks you take it to someone to fix and have a spare, not towed back to your garage.

The only way to revive further would be lower costs so people can use disposable income (where there is less) to build these cars, but the market is still limited to people who are willing to risk the money on a project that might never be finished and alot of people will think they don't have the skill set.

spyder dryver

1,329 posts

216 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
Similarly anyone can build a car..
Anyone? Really?
Who can ever forget this twonk?






NB. I'm not wishing to resurrect the "Kit Car crisis" fiasco but simply trying to inject a little light-heartedness.

He was a twonk though!

LimaDelta

6,516 posts

218 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
spyder dryver said:
Anyone? Really?
Who can ever forget this twonk?






NB. I'm not wishing to resurrect the "Kit Car crisis" fiasco but simply trying to inject a little light-heartedness.

He was a twonk though!
What's wrong with that? Standard-issue safety squint there. hehe

RedAndy

1,218 posts

154 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
Vin Diesel built a kit car?

rdodger

1,088 posts

203 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
RedAndy said:
Vin Diesel built a kit car?
He's no Vin Diesel!

I loved that series and still have it on Tivo.

I was a little insulted when my Mrs asked if it was to give me tips for my build! Yes tips on what not to do!

CorseChris

332 posts

233 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
RedAndy said:
Vin Diesel built a kit car?
smile Before he discovered steroids by the look of it though.

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

198 months

Monday 16th December 2013
quotequote all
I would like a 4 seat 4x4 kit for the price of a MEV kit.

that would be nice smile