Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[ugg10]

Search Mark's Dream Shack orf power slide rides or x-bugs -he has a disco based rail/off roader about ready for release. Thread on hear - search sandrail fun IIRC

[r_stone]

Hi Folks.

A bit 'Old Zombie thread want brains!' here, but for those that showed an interest;

I worked with Joe T for a couple of years on the Costin Roadster - and indeed actually bought an original chassis, and the original body from him. Both the blue body as the orange and black car were new, pulled from the original mould.

My intention was always to build the car up as close to 'known' original Costin spec as possible, albeit with a tad more poke (1.6 115bhp) whereas, as a manufacturer, Joe's own was going to run a VVC 160 K-series in order to prove the chassis. Owing to the unfortunate and untimely loss of a dear friend, I'm know more or less on my own! Therefore, the plan now is to build mine up with a 1.4, as designed in '95, and build for IVA. Still no roof or doors, but Johnny law says with a screen you must have demist, and if I'm having a heater, it may as well heat the occupants!

In amongst my kit was literally everything you see in the photos - including the other screen, which indeed, is a one (two!) off. When Joe bought the body that became mine, it had a one piece fibreglass screen, correct size and shape, moulded in. Unfortunately useless for seeing through! So we pulled a fibreglass mould from the fibreglass screen and Pilkingtons (thanks Phil) tooled up and copied it. When Joe had his made, he also got one made up for me. I'm currently working toward actually getting the thing running - not easy with a chassis that had no brackets for any rear suspension, engine mounts or anything other than the front suspension! But I had fitted the body, hung the engine in on my own Rover Metro based mountings, and then stuck it on wheels. Body is back off again now, to allow me to complete cooling system, exhaust, electrics.... The long list! But at least all the big heavy bits fit together. Doesn't look as sleek as the black car - but in Audi Estoril Blue, on minilites, and with headlight covers and a screen - she should look pretty darned nice.

60+ hour working weeks and a less than brilliant wage are limiting factors and forcing the whole thing to a casual pace, but I will get there. With the demise of both Frank Costin and Joe T - I have to. The car deserves more than to disappear, and they would both approve I think.

Sorry to rant - a long week!

Photos...

Last photo always amuses me - you spend hours working round it in a single width garage, always within 18 inches of it - and then wheel it outside, next to a small hatchback and think - f@@ck me, it's shrunk!

G'night folks,

Rod Stone

Edited by r_stone on Friday 24th October 22:16

Edited by r_stone on Friday 24th October 22:33

[r_stone]

Edit - this photo!

[qdos]

So good to see the car again Rod. I used to speak to Joe now and then about it and electric cars too. It was a shock when he died and there's often times when I think if only Joe was around I'd ask him.... I'm sure I'd have gotten along further with various projects which I'm certain Joe would have liked and popped along to see.

The best of luck getting the car finished I'd really like to see it done.

[r_stone]

Hi Qdos,

Yes, I recall Joe speaking about that. I must admit, the likely performance would have been startling, based on no gear change time, all the torque from just about zero rpm, etc etc, and with the slippery body, reasonable range.

The only issue I have really with any all electric propulsion is the 30-acre power station on the end of the socket on the wall! It did work out substantially cheaper though - Joe described his Berlingo Electrique as 'free motoring', and I believe in his case it almost was, as he used to use a 3ph power supy at work to recharge it!

His passing was an enormous shock. I only saw him about 10 days before, and he was full of beans as usual. My thoughts often return to his family, but I'm quite certain if anyone can cope Mrs. T can.

He and I always got on well, since we both thought aloud - I now find myself missing not only a friend, but one with counterpoint and reason. Between those, we regularly came out with interesting answers. Not sure where in the world you are, but if you want to cast an eye, my lockup is close to Guildford in Surrey. Visitors always welcome as long as I know you're coming.

Ho hum - quick boiler service and then back to the garage!

Rod.

[qdos]

r_stone said:

Not sure where in the world you are, but if you want to cast an eye, my lockup is close to Guildford in Surrey. Visitors always welcome as long as I know you're coming.

Dorset these days but I used to live in Godalming and I would love to see your car so when I'm next that direction I may well drop you a line. I'mm also a bit of an EV fan so perhaps we can carry on some of Joe's conversations for old time's sake ;-)

[jjmcclure89]

Not sure how to revive the kit car idustry but for me a lot of the damage was done when the two main kit car mags were at each others throats i was just getting interested in kits then went to a couple of shows. Then started getting the mags a big mistake really put me off. The mags seem a lot better now Complete kit car & the new Kit Car Mag have quite a good amount of new car reviews and tech stuff which i like. Hated the old version of Kit car mag to much rehashed stuff and adverts. Used to get Total kit car as well but very dissapointed and stopped way to much of the mag taken up by adverts felt like i was just buying a glossy copy of the yellow pages. People new to kit cars as i was want content about new cars not rehashed articles or trips down memory lane with pages taken up by cars that are no longer available. Hints and tips pages are always good i cut all of these out and kept them in a binder and binned the other parts of the mags a massive suprise to see after you got rid of all the unrealated stuff how little there was left. The other big issue is biased reviews obviously driven by advertising again the two main mags seem to have bucked their ideas up from the earlier days. In short the kit car industy need to sort out its shop window i.e. the magazines.
My School report on these magazines

CKC Great news and lots of product reviews with good articles on new cars. Keep up the good work. (A)

KCM Love the practical stuff on IVA and how to guides, large written content on feature articles. Most improved pupil. (A+)

TKC Way too many adverts, not enough up to date reviews on new cars. Not sure what the live band bit has to do with kit car building. Need to pay more attention in class (C)

I hate mass market cars (No Soul) and cant be the only one. Long Live the Kit Car

[fuoriserie]

r_stone said:

Hi Folks.

A bit 'Old Zombie thread want brains!' here, but for those that showed an interest;

I worked with Joe T for a couple of years on the Costin Roadster - and indeed actually bought an original chassis, and the original body from him. Both the blue body as the orange and black car were new, pulled from the original mould.

My intention was always to build the car up as close to 'known' original Costin spec as possible, albeit with a tad more poke (1.6 115bhp) whereas, as a manufacturer, Joe's own was going to run a VVC 160 K-series in order to prove the chassis. Owing to the unfortunate and untimely loss of a dear friend, I'm know more or less on my own! Therefore, the plan now is to build mine up with a 1.4, as designed in '95, and build for IVA. Still no roof or doors, but Johnny law says with a screen you must have demist, and if I'm having a heater, it may as well heat the occupants!

In amongst my kit was literally everything you see in the photos - including the other screen, which indeed, is a one (two!) off. When Joe bought the body that became mine, it had a one piece fibreglass screen, correct size and shape, moulded in. Unfortunately useless for seeing through! So we pulled a fibreglass mould from the fibreglass screen and Pilkingtons (thanks Phil) tooled up and copied it. When Joe had his made, he also got one made up for me. I'm currently working toward actually getting the thing running - not easy with a chassis that had no brackets for any rear suspension, engine mounts or anything other than the front suspension! But I had fitted the body, hung the engine in on my own Rover Metro based mountings, and then stuck it on wheels. Body is back off again now, to allow me to complete cooling system, exhaust, electrics.... The long list! But at least all the big heavy bits fit together. Doesn't look as sleek as the black car - but in Audi Estoril Blue, on minilites, and with headlight covers and a screen - she should look pretty darned nice.

60+ hour working weeks and a less than brilliant wage are limiting factors and forcing the whole thing to a casual pace, but I will get there. With the demise of both Frank Costin and Joe T - I have to. The car deserves more than to disappear, and they would both approve I think.

Sorry to rant - a long week!

Photos...

Last photo always amuses me - you spend hours working round it in a single width garage, always within 18 inches of it - and then wheel it outside, next to a small hatchback and think - f@@ck me, it's shrunk!

G'night folks,

Rod Stone

Edited by r_stone on Friday 24th October 22:16

Edited by r_stone on Friday 24th October 22:33

Hi Rod, thanks for sharing your story and project , I'v always liked the Costin roadster and it's nice to know that you're working on it and as you say it deserves to be driven.

Looking forward to seeing your project in real life in the future.

Cheers

Italo

[fuoriserie]

Bumping up this thead.....

It seems like that after 2008 the kitcar industry has experienced a major change and has shrunk over the last 8 yrs..., we have seen most Kitcarshows dissapear other than Stoneleigh, we have seen quite a few kitcar manufactures close shop or go under and pretty soon we will see the effects of the Brexit on EU sales( not much by some accounts....)


What are you thoughts on the future of this smaller kitcar industry and what might the future hold, for those of us who love it. ?

Cheers

Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 2nd July 10:00

[Fastpedeller]

IMHO Brexit won't make much difference at all. What seems to be happening though, is a growing interest in younger drivers towards both "old things" (read retro) and the desire to have a car which is somehow different. Strangely I get a LOT of interest (both from mature and younger) towards my Rickman, but not as much towards the Quantum. Some see the quantum as a Japanese car! and one member of petrol garage staff told me "I know that car, it's made out of panels on a Toyota MR2" A growing interest (if that's what it is) in our hobby can only be good. I can also see the possible increase of sales by exhibiting at Classic shows - Classic followers who want a build but are maybe tired of cutting out old rusty metal?

[cymtriks]

I'm genuinely sorry to post this, but I think the kit car market is dead.

Back in the days when Marcos and Ginetta were doing well there was a huge number of people that maintained their own cars. I'm not talking about just changing the oil, I'm talking about engine out jobs, the works. Mending things, as opposed to just buying a new one, was very common and extended to just about every kind of home appliance. Mechanical hobbies were much more common. In a society like that there are plenty of people that might want to build a kit car, especially if the mass manufacturers are concentrating on churning out Morris Marinas.

Today the situation is completely different. I recently spoke to a fifteen year old who wanted to be an engineer. I asked him if he could draw a cross section of a car engine, he hadn't a clue. Now at that age I could have drawn a basic cross section of a petrol engine, a steam engine, an electric motor, a jet engine and a rocket. Kids today just don't see that as engineering, to them engineering is an App. There are plenty of cars that are insanely fast by the standard that I grew up with. There are plenty of second hand sportscars as well.

Add to that the spiraling expectations. The generation coming into the market will be genuinely flummoxed by the very idea of a car not having air-con, a radio as standard, ABS and electric windows.

I just can't see kit cars being anything other than increasingly niche, to the point where they are effectively extinct.

[Equus]

cymtriks said:

I'm genuinely sorry to post this, but I think the kit car market is dead.

I think you're right, but it's not all doom-and-gloom.

The vibrant motorsports industry in the UK means that we have a decent supply of engineers with an aspiration to manufacture their own cars, and CAD, 3D printing and rapid prototyping technologies will continue to make very low volume production more viable.

Perhaps the kit car market is just about dead, bar the last few gasps and twitches, but I think that the low-volume sports car market will go on for a few more years, yet - until we all get used to fully autonomous vehicles, at least.

[CrutyRammers]

Dunno. I can't see it getting bigger, but there will always be people who want to build things; I don't think that'll ever die out completely.

[Equus]

'Ever' is a big word, especially when - the way things are going - cars that even need driver intervention may well be obsolete within a couple of decades.

But you've then got the economics of it: there may well be a handful of people who would like to build a kit car, but that's not enough to sustain a viable business for those who manufacture them. We've already seen a drastic contraction of the market for this reason.

The last gasp will probably be a shift back to 'specials' building and plans-built cars (and 3D printing technology may help with the latter).

Interestingly, Jez Coates (in charge of engineering at Caterham for decades) is now working on autonomous vehicles. He recently expressed an opinion that non-autonomous road cars would die out in the relatively near future, under legislative pressure, but that there may be a continued market for track cars. Again, I'm not so sure: will there be enough people willing to run expensive and anachronistic vehicles purely for track day use to make the continued maintenance and operation of expensive race tracks viable when driving as a necessary skill for road use has died out?

[pierrevervaeke]

Let me start by saying that I have bought more than a three dozen kitcars in the UK in the last thirty years.
And that I have attended nearly every kitcarshow ever organised.
From the days of shows at Esher Chatham etc.
So please accept my two cents.
In my opinion it all comes down to marketing.
In this age of 24/7 shopping whatever you sell it always all comes down to marketing and marketing.
So first of all as a kitcar manufacturer I would start by translating my website in the important european languages.
Do not forget 99 percent of Europeans do not speak English.
And even worse have absolutely no idea what a kitcar is.
Secondly I would start buying foreign domeinnames and link them to my british website.
And thirdly I would support the own kitcarmagazines.
And more important even,I would try to place adverts however small in as many magazines that carry advertising for mainstream cars as the company can afford.
Just one question how many emailadresses does your companies database contain ?
And I would try to set up schemes like parttime ownership.
Why for example cant I hire the companies democar for a weekend out with the wife ?
To cut a very long story short.
There are litteraly thousands of simple tricks that the whole industry misses.
Any company who has trouble selling can always mail me for some more free advice at [e-mail]
P.S. I am a freshly retired marketing officer of one of the big boys ;D

[Equus]

pierrevervaeke said:

In my opinion it all comes down to marketing.

That's a very fair comment: certainly, the marketing efforts of most UK kit car companies (and the indistry as a whole) are laughable.

Of your list though, I'm not sure that marketing to Europe will be top priority for UK kit car companies right now, though.

[pierrevervaeke]

Dear Equus
And why would they ignore a 500 million people market ?
250 million plus cars.
There must be a awfull lot of potential kitcar enthousiast among these.
Let me give an example of the buying power of this market.
In the Benelux correctly registered old Novas reguarly change hands for more than 10.000 £
Dutton Melos for 5000£
Pounds not Euros
Check out wwww.catawiki.com

[Equus]

pierrevervaeke said:

Dear Equus
And why would they ignore a 500 million people market ?

Dear Pierre,

Because the existing legislative and impending trade complexities make it far more trouble than it's worth.

Equus

[pierrevervaeke]

Dear Equus
And what is wrong with setting up a leasing company in the UK where the owner sells his car and leases it back.
Think creatively.
There are legal loopholes everywhere.
I import on average a dozen cars a year.
First I get them on the road in Holland and then sell them on to Belgium Germany Italy France etc.
And some go back to the UK.
Most people seem to have forgotten that since the Maastricht treaty of 1992 you have the right to set up a company in whichever country you choose and drive the company car.
There are only two kitcars in my garage at the moment and they are both on UK numberplates.

[xRIEx]

pierrevervaeke said:

Most people seem to have forgotten that since the Maastricht treaty of 1992 you have the right to set up a company in whichever country you choose and drive the company car.

Erm, you seem to have forgotten stuff that happened a week and a half ago, nevermind 24 years.