Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
Stuart Mills said:
Kit car exhibitors however comprised of MEV & GBS only.
At the quality end of the market, Suffolk Sports Cars and WAM (Aston Martin DBS3 replica) were there, too - you can't have failed to spot WAM, surely - I thought it was a bit cruel of the organisers to site them immediately opposite your 'Replicar'?There was a Hawk Stratos on one of the stands, too.
The Crack Fox said:
Stuart Mills said:
stuff
Stuart, that's a fairly passionate defence of your industry (and, therefore, your company), but you miss two really big points. Please take this as constructive criticism and viewed from your potential customer's perspective, not that of a business owner.1 - Price. When comparing a new £20k MX-5 to a kit car to justify the 'low cost' of the kit you are not comparing apples with apples. A new, factory built and warrantied car versus a home build. You may as well pick a helicopter, or a superyacht, as the prospective new MX-5 buyer won't be looking at kit cars, they'll be drinking coffee in the showroom and picking pretty colours. You can, however, compare a used car to a classic car. Take a £10k kit car versus a £10k classic car, for example. Classic car ownership usually satisfies the home tinkerer's urges without having him spend endless days in the garage while his wife stands tutting at the kit he's working on. The £10k classic car almost certainly won't depreciate either, you'll know that most classic car prices are going bonkers, actually. From a financial perspective, the £10k classic car beats the £10k kit car hands down. Yes, there's a value to be had in the satisfaction of building something yourself, but what price does your prospective customer put on that nowadays, really?
2 - Quality. During the kit car boom of, say, the 70's to early 80's, people knew that many mainstream cars were shonky. Industrial action Austins, Dagenham rotboxes, cars like these were known to be a bit crap but there was little choice. The gap in production and component quality between a production car and a kit car wasn't that great. Today we've had nigh-on 30 years of mostly very very well made cars from nearly every mainstream manufacturer. Doors and windows don't leak. They start in the morning. You can probably crash one into a tree and not be deaded. Now, the latest of these might not be very interesting, but the oldest and more exciting may now fall into classic territory. And the expectation of quality, to the guy pondering (say) a good MK1 MX-5 over a kit car, will be so much higher. I've seen and driven and poked around kit cars and the vast majority do not seem to have improved in quality in decades. The attention to detail needs to be spot-on whereas so many kit cars nowadays, to my eyes, are junk. Sorry. Its tough for you guys, because the makers of new cars (which eventually become the classics your customers are also looking at) can produce QA stats based on mass production with dedicated QA teams and warranties and support. You can't.
To those who enjoy building kits, driving them, owning them - great. But as the industry stands, I can't see me or like-minded people spending money on them. The last time I visited a kit car company (who shall remain nameless), the bloody front door of their office opened the wrong way and the handle was on upside down. That sort of sums it up to me.
Good luck.
ETA - Sorry, having re-read that post it comes over as a bit of a pasting - nothing personal
Edited by The Crack Fox on Wednesday 3rd August 22:11
Added to that, all they had to compete with were 10 year old MGs and Triumphs that were, as you suggested, rusty and leaky. So, in the early 90s, several kits got close to production car standards. Of course, by the 90s, the MX5 had arrived, but it was still quite new, relatively expensive and a little slow, so it didn't make too much difference for a while.
As for quality, while kit design does impact on what can be achieved (and how easily it can be achieved) ultimate quality is firmly in the hands of the builder. It's often panel gaps and interior finish that let the side down - same could be said for many 80s TVRs - and this is why I would be taking interior trim to a specialist to get the work done to an acceptable standard, if the car needed that treatment.
These days, there aren't many niches left, as we've discussed to death on this thread. It would be great to see something genuinely different pop up on the scene though.
I think the industry is split. The top end where £40k upwards is the budget and then the rest. Caterham do well and still sell plenty as it is not seen as a "kit" with all the bad connotations that some have, somewhere in the middle to top end.
Now the bigger problem I see is the changing face of the public. Schools no longer teach practical skills and kids now want instant gratification. No need to save up, cheap credit and most importantly IMAGE.
They are driven by designer brand names, paying top dollar for rubbish as it has a name on it that other desire. So car wise they want a badge first. My Niece and her husband, have no money or brains, but now have a full fat Range Rover V8 Supercharged petrol 4.2 on HP at 22 year old, with a baby as well. It is stupid but all their vacuous mates are all saying what they are getting in a similar vein.
When you add in all the difficulties, it is easy to see why the industry isn't in massive growth but there will always be one but it will need to evolve .
Stuart has done more than most to change the face of what people drive, and clearly survives on it but is wise to reach out to different groups. It is the same in the states with the Hot Rod movement. A few years ago they had a drive to get young people out of "Rice Burners" into rods and it has worked. The scale is huge there but the problem the same.
Kids need to stop chasing cartoons on a phone and do something worthwhile, learning new skills and building a car is a great way, but the designs need to be appealing to them. A 30's roadster will never cut it with them.
Now the bigger problem I see is the changing face of the public. Schools no longer teach practical skills and kids now want instant gratification. No need to save up, cheap credit and most importantly IMAGE.
They are driven by designer brand names, paying top dollar for rubbish as it has a name on it that other desire. So car wise they want a badge first. My Niece and her husband, have no money or brains, but now have a full fat Range Rover V8 Supercharged petrol 4.2 on HP at 22 year old, with a baby as well. It is stupid but all their vacuous mates are all saying what they are getting in a similar vein.
When you add in all the difficulties, it is easy to see why the industry isn't in massive growth but there will always be one but it will need to evolve .
Stuart has done more than most to change the face of what people drive, and clearly survives on it but is wise to reach out to different groups. It is the same in the states with the Hot Rod movement. A few years ago they had a drive to get young people out of "Rice Burners" into rods and it has worked. The scale is huge there but the problem the same.
Kids need to stop chasing cartoons on a phone and do something worthwhile, learning new skills and building a car is a great way, but the designs need to be appealing to them. A 30's roadster will never cut it with them.
Equus said:
The Crack Fox said:
From a financial perspective, the £10k classic car beats the £10k kit car hands down.
Very fair point. Beats it hands down in terms of prestige, too, in most peoples' eyes, and a restoration has got to run it pretty close in terms of personal satisfaction, too.
First car was a mk1 escort that was ten years old and already on its third engine, welded like a patchwork quilt and the gearbox was on the way out. Ten year old focus will now just run in.
I built a fury between 2000 and 2005, always had the kit car itch since paying £1 for a set of dutton brochures when I was ten. Great experience helped by Mark's service, attitude and great product. Sold this and it is still being well used. I probably spent around £10k, sold for £7k, reasonable for a kit I think.
So when the project itch hit again a couple of years ago I looked at many of the sevens, contacted Stuart about his Misslie and Replicar but when looking into costs I went for a classic, for a £10k spend I will get all of that back if I decide to cash in and as I have chosen an unusual engine/box I can satisfy my engineering needs. Also, no IVA, no road tax (pre 1975) and just an mot to get it on the road.
That said, at some point the price of classic projects will overtake kit prices (even low end like spitfires and minis) and the tables might turn. But I think I still have another kit build in me at some time in the future, so never say never!
The Crack Fox said:
ETA - Sorry, having re-read that post it comes over as a bit of a pasting - nothing personal
Non taken, I use my real name in the knowledge of potential implications.Edited by The Crack Fox on Wednesday 3rd August 22:11
Classics V kits?
My experience is completely different to that voiced here in the main. I stand at shows listening constantly to people raving about the excitement of driving a car they could build themselves. I am reminded at least 20 times a day at classic and resto shows of how painful "rust in the eye" is and how horrible the task of welding new tin to a rusty floor pan is.
Residual value wise it is of course very common to build a 7 which has a far greater value than it's Sierra donor, and sale prices achieved for even a very poor but road legal 70's kit car always delight me.
Worrying though are firms that have very pricey replicas on their websites registered as Jags!
Certainly from my potential customer perspective the last thing the are looking for is another mortgage just to buy a replica, value for money is high on many peoples agendas. They are not looking for a classic to worry about rust bubbles coming back through the body they have just spent 3k having painted.
There is an ever widening gap between low cost, easy to build kits like my offerings and the 30-40k suppliers who are also apparently very busy. Total head turners had a fantastic display of about 20 high end kits for sale at Silverstone last weekend. All looked amazing, this firm continues to raise the profile of kit cars. Good work guys.
The Crack Fox said:
Stuart Mills said:
My experience is completely different to that voiced here in the main.
It certainly is. You're looking at the market through sellers eyes. We, here, are are looking through buyers eyes. Different perspective, different expectations, it seems. Good luck.
The experience I was referring to above is predominantly made up of potential customer feedback. I always try to look at the market from the eyes of the buyer. We always show what we call honest demo cars, not dressed up with all manner of tantalising extras that shove the cost through the roof. Our show cars are basic blank canvass's which encourage the customer to imagine.
In my nearby Ford showroom they have a sign that says "Fiesta from just under 8k" but they show the top of the range. Clever?
Because 98% of car buyers, even car enthusiasts, want to buy into a SAFE, mass marketed brand, a proven vehicle in a conventional "car" format. Nobody is prepared to throw thousands of pounds towards a tubular chassis/frame and a bit of fiberglass or aluminium, apart from that small 2% - who retain the small demand for such vehicles. While most of those are purchased for track events.
You could say 2 seater convertibles/roadsters, come as close as you can get to a similar 2 seater, open top kit car. Take for example an MX-5. But again, the general public expect a certain standard of practicality, comfort, crash protection, all weather protection (especially in the UK where the weather is more often unfavourable).
Finally in the current economic climate, most people have more important financial commitments, than to throw several £K towards a kit car (as a good one doesn't come cheap). Also the general public are SHEEP, that are unlikely to break the mould. Even motorcycles (and their owners) have a certain stigma attached in this country and actually are seen as a nuisance in a lot of cases / or rebellious!
Must admit though, I've considered selling my motorcycle and replacing it with a kit car. But again, I'd still have to add a substantial sum of cash, to be able to afford a decent kit.
You could say 2 seater convertibles/roadsters, come as close as you can get to a similar 2 seater, open top kit car. Take for example an MX-5. But again, the general public expect a certain standard of practicality, comfort, crash protection, all weather protection (especially in the UK where the weather is more often unfavourable).
Finally in the current economic climate, most people have more important financial commitments, than to throw several £K towards a kit car (as a good one doesn't come cheap). Also the general public are SHEEP, that are unlikely to break the mould. Even motorcycles (and their owners) have a certain stigma attached in this country and actually are seen as a nuisance in a lot of cases / or rebellious!
Must admit though, I've considered selling my motorcycle and replacing it with a kit car. But again, I'd still have to add a substantial sum of cash, to be able to afford a decent kit.
I'm with you Stuart, I spent about £10k building my Fury. Would I have spent that on a "classic"? No.
I have a car with "classic" looks
I have a car with modern reliability, handling, brakes.
I have a car which will run rings round 99% of other cars.
It doesn't leak oil on the drive.
It won't kill me at the first sign of a crash.
Even if I listen really carefully I still can't HEAR it rusting.
If I fancy painting it lime green, or changing the wheels, or fitting different tail lights, I won't wipe £5k off the value.
If I can't find a spare part, I re-engineer it to use a part I can find without being ex-communicated by an owner's club.
It'll do 40MPG.
I'll take a kit every time.
I have a car with "classic" looks
I have a car with modern reliability, handling, brakes.
I have a car which will run rings round 99% of other cars.
It doesn't leak oil on the drive.
It won't kill me at the first sign of a crash.
Even if I listen really carefully I still can't HEAR it rusting.
If I fancy painting it lime green, or changing the wheels, or fitting different tail lights, I won't wipe £5k off the value.
If I can't find a spare part, I re-engineer it to use a part I can find without being ex-communicated by an owner's club.
It'll do 40MPG.
I'll take a kit every time.
Edited by Fury1630 on Tuesday 9th August 12:44
Good for you Fury... but what percentage of the general public: have the time, the tools, the garage space, the expertise, the equivalent funds (£10K), the ability to "re-engineer" parts - as you did - building a Kit car from the ground up?
The answer, is even less than the 2% of the population who might consider a kit car as an economical purchase. Most of those would choose a complete vehicle, they could drive away, if at all. You are a genius, an exception.
Most of the public just want a reliable CAR (in the conventional sense), a means of transportation in order to get from A to B. They are not looking to be flash, and definitely not to "run rings round 99% of other cars.".
For the record, I own an 18yr old motorcycle (Supersport bike), that cost 1/10th the cost of your car, that I guarantee will run rings round your motorized go-kart.
The answer, is even less than the 2% of the population who might consider a kit car as an economical purchase. Most of those would choose a complete vehicle, they could drive away, if at all. You are a genius, an exception.
Most of the public just want a reliable CAR (in the conventional sense), a means of transportation in order to get from A to B. They are not looking to be flash, and definitely not to "run rings round 99% of other cars.".
For the record, I own an 18yr old motorcycle (Supersport bike), that cost 1/10th the cost of your car, that I guarantee will run rings round your motorized go-kart.
Falling income might influence the buying of future kitcars.... ?
http://www.mckinsey.com/Videos/video?vid=503074128...
http://www.mckinsey.com/Videos/video?vid=503074128...
Fury1630 said:
I'm with you Stuart, I spent about £10k building my Fury. Would I have spent that on a "classic"? No.
I have a car with "classic" looks
I have a car with modern reliability, handling, brakes.
I have a car which will run rings round 99% of other cars.
It doesn't leak oil on the drive.
It won't kill me at the first sign of a crash.
Even if I listen really carefully I still can't HEAR it rusting.
If I fancy painting it lime green, or changing the wheels, or fitting different tail lights, I won't wipe £5k off the value.
If I can't find a spare part, I re-engineer it to use a part I can find without being ex-communicated by an owner's club.
It'll do 40MPG.
I'll take a kit every time.
Ditto from me - As much as I like the appearance of some classic cars, I prefer coil springs on a sports car rather than rusty old leaf springs with 60 year old designed parts.The appeal of building a car with a brand new chassis which I can paint any colour I like without having to stay "original" is also good. Maybe its just me, but I prefer to buy a car without thinking "this is a classic it will increase in value" but just to enjoy it. Maybe that's why I'm not rich, but I smile!I have a car with "classic" looks
I have a car with modern reliability, handling, brakes.
I have a car which will run rings round 99% of other cars.
It doesn't leak oil on the drive.
It won't kill me at the first sign of a crash.
Even if I listen really carefully I still can't HEAR it rusting.
If I fancy painting it lime green, or changing the wheels, or fitting different tail lights, I won't wipe £5k off the value.
If I can't find a spare part, I re-engineer it to use a part I can find without being ex-communicated by an owner's club.
It'll do 40MPG.
I'll take a kit every time.
Edited by Fury1630 on Tuesday 9th August 12:44
-Here is a story I tell against myself in a rueful state of mind.
I am a fan of the Fury and went to a factory open day some years ago; it was near to where I lived and I was keen to see the cars excellent constructional details for myself...partly because I was designing a car for production!
I kept in my mind that the kit car market would always be buzzing and vitally alive...that was because I never thought it would be anything other than that, as lots of people like me love messing about with cars and as my great grandfather, chairman of the new Vauxhall Car Company in 1906 would fully understand!
Before and since then I have been creating two designs, a coupe and a roadster. They both have GRP bodies on separate chassis. I have finished one and the kit has been available and my site live now for a couple of weeks. Now I have started networking, I realise that I might as well not do any more as it looks as if nothing is going to happen.
Reading this thread for the first time with all its absolutely accurate and now you think about it, obvious observations about this market only goes to show that I should have watched its progress more closely and kept myself up to date.
I am determined not to be depressed about my position, 'from adversity comes opportunity!' I feel this morning that to try to create a business where a market has disappeared is worse than foolish; it is completely mental. Shall I turn to something else 'what, I wonder?' finish the cars as perfectly as I can and enjoy them by myself.
I am a fan of the Fury and went to a factory open day some years ago; it was near to where I lived and I was keen to see the cars excellent constructional details for myself...partly because I was designing a car for production!
I kept in my mind that the kit car market would always be buzzing and vitally alive...that was because I never thought it would be anything other than that, as lots of people like me love messing about with cars and as my great grandfather, chairman of the new Vauxhall Car Company in 1906 would fully understand!
Before and since then I have been creating two designs, a coupe and a roadster. They both have GRP bodies on separate chassis. I have finished one and the kit has been available and my site live now for a couple of weeks. Now I have started networking, I realise that I might as well not do any more as it looks as if nothing is going to happen.
Reading this thread for the first time with all its absolutely accurate and now you think about it, obvious observations about this market only goes to show that I should have watched its progress more closely and kept myself up to date.
I am determined not to be depressed about my position, 'from adversity comes opportunity!' I feel this morning that to try to create a business where a market has disappeared is worse than foolish; it is completely mental. Shall I turn to something else 'what, I wonder?' finish the cars as perfectly as I can and enjoy them by myself.
Come on guys, use your imagination and remember, Google is your friend.
How hard can it be.
Surely this is it..................
http://www.vortex-auto.com/index.html
How hard can it be.
Surely this is it..................
http://www.vortex-auto.com/index.html
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/m0gzHv8y.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/w2wOGsFt" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/w2wOGsFt.jpg)
Well here is the car, a roadster that is ready to offer the non existent kit car market. Based on a 2CV chassis engine and transmission it needs no IVA but GRP body and parts come to 'buy in price of 8K' so there is precious little chance of any margin for a unit to keep it in or pay anybody to help. Let alone go and buy my daily bread.
If it comes out, I have uploaded an image of the other car, a coupe has a long way to go, but I have got a nice GM 5.3l all ali engine for it and Jag facelift under-pinnings ..They had rear outboard discs instead of inboard...all based on Puma body.
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff