Is this where Kit Car designs should be heading

[Martyn-123]

Almost every time i look at the "photo of your kit car" thread it seems to consist of the same type over and over again, either a cobra or a 7 type and whilst some of them have great specs it can get a little boring which is not what kit cars should be about.

Now, what about this,

http://sub3wheeler.com/images.php?page=complete


Complelely different and wish somebody would buy the design rights off them and offer it in kit form, looks great fun and so different from anything else out there,


Regards,


Martyn....

Edited by Martyn-123 on Tuesday 19th March 07:25

[Steve_D]

It always comes down to the same problem. You would want one I would not.

In order for a company to invest time and money into a project they would need to be reasonably assured there was a good market for the design.
If you produce another 7 or Cobra you know there is a market for it so your only target is to make yours more appealing by design or cost.

I like the looks of that car but only having one seat will, IMHO, rule it out of most of the market.

Steve

[thescamper]

Im sure that the Sub has been discussed on one of the three wheeler threads before, I love it and have even had a fair bit of discussion with the designers about getting hold of one, but I am in a mad minority and the market isnt big enough to make it a viable proposition. The only way I see that any company would make any money is if a limited production run (say 10 cars) was commisioned The price was set at about 30K, 10 people pay 15K up front to cover development and kitting, and then we pay 5K just before delivery and then 10K plus any additional costs at delivery.

The risk involved in development is spread amongst the investors and somebody actually gets paid to work on the project, otherwise all of the development costs sit with the designer/producer and its just down to one persons opinion that the product he designs will sell and will have a big enough market.

There are so many ways that it can go wrong tho'

[Martyn-123]

Hi,

One seat only i understand but surely there could be a market from aging motorcyclists who need a more comfy but superfast option instead of a Harley.

If not a Sub3 then the Kit car market should be about offering something different, in the same way that all euroboxes look the same are not kit cars going in the same direction and surely the cobra or 7 market is well saturated by now.

The sub3 looks professional (unlike some joke embarassing kitcat designs) and has already had a considerable £££ spent in the R@D dept although it would probably have to be adjusted to perhaps use more off the shelf component cars.

Just want to see the wow factor on our roads again, it rarely happens these days, no wonder our kids are not interested in cars anymore,


Martyn.

[gtmdriver]

Purely a personal opinion and I'm well aware that other motorcyclists will feel differently but this car would not appeal to me at all.

For me the appeal of a bike is not just about open air riding. It is the way it corners and steers so completely differently from a car. I would also not even begin to consider any single seat vehicle as sharing the experience with my wife is a major part of owning the bike in the first place.

I do agree with the basic premise of this posting though. It would be nice to see more unique or original designs in the kit car world (Thanks MEV) but as Steve D rightly says. Manufacturers will play safe and make what they know they can sell.

Edited by gtmdriver on Tuesday 19th March 09:16

[qdos]

Sevens are great but it is rather boring and Joe public thinks that's all you can build for yourself these days or of course a Cobra replica but as we know there's a lot of completely different cars available in the kit car world. We just have to sing loud and clear about them. Stuart at MEV does a fantastic job with innovative cars

Unfortunately what's happened is that the UK over the last 20+ years has been steered more and more into paper shuffling and kids are taught that getting your hands dirty is scummy. So we need to re-engage the youth. Of course the rest of us who are typically in the same age bracket as the Top Gear mob are still hankering after the cars we wanted in our youth.

[ajprice]

There are a lot of sevens and cobras, and things close to sevens and cobras. I like to see the modern designs though. Depending on what happens to Lotus, who knows what happens to the Elise, maybe reborn as a kit in the near future if Caterham, Westfield or another big kit brand take it on?

Edit: I've just caught up on the Lotus thread, rumours of their death were greatly exaggerated. They're fine. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by ajprice on Tuesday 19th March 11:01

[Stuart Mills]

I agree, the Sub3 is a refreshing design, but the concept will not suit everyone, it will however "float some boats". We need new options to keep our hobby alive and sustainable IMO. I have often considered how I can help others to consider developing new products so I have written a book (50,000 plus words, 250 plus pictures). The sole aim is to encourage like minded people to consider creating a new kit car or one off project. I discuss all elements of design, manufacturing, marketing and budgeting.
Who knows what the future may bring.

[FNG]

Setting aside the particular car you've shown there, the biggest problem with developing new products is that unless they're replicas, they will be styled in the manner of the current crop of road cars.

They can't really be otherwise - if you're not selling something that harks to another era, the only thing that's left is contemporary.

Issue being, the best you'll manage to do is take design inspiration from recent new models or show cars. You're a kit car designer, you're not going to be setting the next trend.

Therefore you're behind the curve, and trying to sell to a public that's used to a 6 year lifespan for most car models, with a facelift halfway through that time.

IMO that's the primary reason that Sevens, Cobras and the like remain successful. You invest in them - and the investment in kit car bodywork moulds isn't insignificant - and then can look forward to continued sales for years thereafter.

I wouldn't like to find myself, as a low volume manufacturer, with a design that starts to look 'dated' after 7-10 years and need to develop a new design, plug, moulds and jigs to suit. The rest of the industry doesn't need to do that, so doesn't need to invest as heavily, and are costed accordingly.

This may be why few completely new designs come forth, and those that do frequently don't last beyond their first iteration, nor get replaced by another successful modern design.

[anonymous-user]

FNG said:

I wouldn't like to find myself, as a low volume manufacturer, with a design that starts to look 'dated' after 2-3 years and need to develop a new design, plug, moulds and jigs to suit.

EFA!

If your design entirely revolves around being the "latest bestest thing" you probably have 18-24months tops as exactly that before something else comes along and steals your crown these days!

[Martyn-123]

Hi,

Interesting thoughts but the sub 3 wheeler was designed in 2005, some 8 years ago and still looks relevant today, and my Marcos (albeit not trading now) used the basic shape from the late 60's to the late 80's before changing appearance much.

Ultima cars have tweeked their basic shape which they have used for several years, my thoughts being get it right and unique and the design will stand the test of time,


Martyn.

[FNG]

Max_Torque said:

EFA!

If your design entirely revolves around being the "latest bestest thing" you probably have 18-24months tops as exactly that before something else comes along and steals your crown these days!

I'm not talking of a product where design is everything, just one where design follows current trends.

You'd get away with it for best part of 10 years if the design was good enough. I suspect the 3wheeler above was designed by someone who knew their onions I.e. a car designer or at least student of design.

Not many kit car designs are productionised versions of a viable concept car, hence they tend not to be on the pulse of current design by the time they are developed and on sale.

Witness GTM Libra for example. Still going til recently but the lions share of the sales were early on in its life and its been n life support for a while now. It desperately needed a refresh on most of the exterior panels, at least, but that takes investment.

[FNG]

Martyn-123 said:

Hi,

Interesting thoughts but the sub 3 wheeler was designed in 2005, some 8 years ago and still looks relevant today, and my Marcos (albeit not trading now) used the basic shape from the late 60's to the late 80's before changing appearance much.

Ultima cars have tweeked their basic shape which they have used for several years, my thoughts being get it right and unique and the design will stand the test of time,


Martyn.

Marcos is a bit of an odd one, as it neared its last years I did wonder why people still bought it. Harking back to earlier times, i assumed, as it certainly wasn't current.

Ultima looks extremely dated now compared to when it was developed. Fortunately it harks back to group c cars etc, so it's still appealing to an older era as well as making the most of its performance credentials.

Besides, I am not trying to make a case that every new car design must age badly. I'm outlining why I think most kits don't follow current design trends because the economics of it don't stack up compared to putting a similar investment into making a replica.

Just my impression of things anyway.

[KMF]

Love it, just wish someone was makin the RCR nemesis over here, now that is nice

Edited by KMF on Tuesday 19th March 21:28

[Furyblade_Lee]

[quote=Martyn-123]Almost every time i look at the "photo of your kit car" thread it seems to consist of the same type over and over again, either a cobra or a 7 type and whilst some of them have great specs it can get a little boring which is not what kit cars should be about.



A bit harsh methinks!!!!!!

[trackerjack]

There have been many attempts at diversity with a home built car.
I built an Autotune Gemini in the mid 90,s and started a Sierra 4X4 based special that I sold as a running but unfinished project.
Then I became the owner of a Robin Hood S7 which was terrible.
So now I am building an MX5 turbo engined 7 type with a proper chassis and running gear.
The cars that I loved the look of when I was building in the 90,s were the Noble Lotus 23,AF roadster, Nelson 350, Mcoy TR3, Brooke ME190 but I have yet to see any of these cars on the road so must assume that the 7 type wins the hearts.

With almost all cars being FWD now I am surprised that a rear engine RWD car has not emerged as a market leader.
The first of this type was probably a Unipower GT which was Mini based but I have never seen one.

[FNG]

trackerjack said:

I (snip) must assume that the 7 type wins the hearts.

I think the Seven wins as many wallets as hearts, but competes strongly on several counts:
- loads of variants out there, competition keeps the cost down
- they're a very cheap and lightweight car to make and build
- they perform very well even at budget build levels, and the chassis dynamics are well understood
- the end result is very similar in style to a Caterham which has huge aspirational pull as a brand

Fully enclosed body versions of Sevens (Fisher Fury, Sylva Stylus) haven't ever been very successful, despite being aerodynamically better and a little bit more civilised, while retaining the best part of a Seven's ease of build, power to weight, balance, handling and character.

Why? I assume it's because they are more expensive, heavier, and lose the strong identity that the Seven has. Why pay more to be slower (on the road at least).

The Seven is such a great all-round car to build from a kit, so established in the market and well-understood dynamically, that it's nigh on impossible to design anything better. Many, many kit cars are weekend toys - so for your money, you're after the best fun per £ and that generally means good handling, ample power, low weight.

Unfortunately this becomes a vicious circle, where new manufacturers bring out a Seven copy because it's a safe way of getting into the industry - you know that if you compete on price, you'll get at least some customers. Manufacturers starting off with a new design have a hard slog on their hands to get customers coming to their door for an alternative to a Seven.

I don't think it's impossible, but a new design needs to compete well against a Seven for cost, handling, power to weight, and desirability (styling and execution) would need to be top notch if it's to get decent sales for a reasonable time.

trackerjack said:

With almost all cars being FWD now I am surprised that a rear engine RWD car has not emerged as a market leader.

Elises do that job very well and are available at bottom-end kit car money, and anything lightweight / transverse mid engined / GRP bodied will be compared to it.

GTM Libra was such a car, and I thought might sell more than it did. But it was quite expensive and didn't hold its value very well.

Sylva Mojo was a more typical kit car attempt at this, and despite good handling and moderately good styling never really took off.

TBH I think part of the problem is the majority of kit cars look like, well, kit cars. It's a term used disparagingly when a car's design looks somewhat ungainly or clumsy "that looks like a kit car".

I think that's why the industry is largely based on replicas now, with some real kit enthusiasts happy to drive a kit car that looks "like a kit car" but the rest preferring to drive one that looks like a Caterham.

As an aside, the future can still remain front engined, RWD IMO. There is an ongoing supply of donors in the shape of MX5s, which are an excellent OEM architecture for a kit car. Right sort of weight, double wishbone uprights, one-donor solution (accepting you might want more power, but e.g. Ford / Jag / Mazda V6s fit, RX7 engines and boxes too, plenty of space for any engine and gearbox you choose in fact).

If designing from a transverse FWD donor, you could scarcely do better than the Libra as a coherent attempt at a civilised daily use car.

At the other end of the scale, with open wheels and light weight going head-to-head with Sevens, is the Mojo or something like an Onyx Mongoose (I don't think these are being made any more?).

Niether of those did so well really.

In conclusion, because that was an awful lot of waffle, the market speaks for itself. If you're a kit car manufacturer who wants to get selling cars and continue to do so, you launch a new take on the Seven, because the kit car buying public doesn't seem to support non-Seven entry-level kits to the degree that they can continue to be made profitably.

There's a dearth of decent design in the kit industry, but I think the low cost / investment / profit margin nature of the industry is part of the problem.

In the main, the guys who can design, develop and manufacture a new car have not studied car design, they've studied engineering, or are welders and fabricators, or self taught mechanics etc. Their styling skills aren't strong enough.

The average car designer can pile up mud and shape it into a lovely looking car, but wouldn't know where to start when faced with a pile of oily bits and some lengths of metal tube. (it would also have no headroom or door handles or mirrors, and 24" wheels with no tyre to speak of, but that's by-the-by).

Not the fault of anyone, but the way things tend to be.

The only car that's going to shake up the industry is one that's developed jointly by a good car designer and a good mechanical engineer, to put together a well executed and feasible design, that can be tooled and manufactured cheaply enough to make a margin, and will sell on a strong combination of fresh looks, reasonable cost, great performance.

It's a tough ask, and the only car I can think of that's managed it to date is the Atom. Which isn't a kit car. And that's probably why it's succeeded TBH.

Until then, there will always be other kits being developed, but they'll be bit players. If they do well enough to last for a few years, good on them. Quite a few won't become long term presences in the industry, which is a shame, but the market tends to evolve around what the public want.

If the public get fed up of Sevens, something will fill their place. It will take something special to switch that allegiance sooner.

I'm all for that - who is going to step up and develop that car?

[Stuart Mills]

There is huge market potential in my opinion. Those interested in joining the ranks of kit car manufacturing could consider the areas not already well catered for.
Vans, pick ups, hot rods, commuter vehicles, electric cars, 4 seaters, 4x4's, Coupés, multi purpose vehicles, replicas of older production cars not already available etc etc.
These are all areas that could be potential growth markets. Perhaps this thread could be used to explore positive possibilities of "where kit car designs should be heading"

[FNG]

Perhaps I will withdraw from the discussion and watch, then.

I'd love to return to the industry but can't see a robust way of doing that given the market trends I've outlined above.

So if there are types of car that people really want, I'm all for developing new products along those lines.

[TheLastPost]

Stuart Mills said:

Perhaps this thread could be used to explore positive possibilities of "where kit car designs should be heading"

Haven't we been there already?