Is this where Kit Car designs should be heading

[fuoriserie]

http://www.istreamtechnology.co.uk/1/Overview.html

The Gordon Murray Istream technology is interesting and maybe something could trickle down to kitcar manufacturing....

[fuoriserie]

Maybe a 3D printed kitcar ?....this project looks like a very interesting chassis design :

http://www.divergentmicrofactories.com/

Videos :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU7LhQsLthA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9odhgH24oA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8wFs1aipaE

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 24th July 13:22

[fuoriserie]

I'm bumping up this thread, as I think there is some really good information in it.

Trying to Look at a positive future of "where kit car designs should be heading" in 2016 and behond.

Maybe it'a about time that also the kitcar Industry as a whole, gets together in some sort of a association os similar institution, to continue lobbing the EU, in keeping the Single Vehicle or Small Vehicle Type Approval as is and still affordable and available.

What I'm afraid of, is that the Industry is underestimating the EU influence in such a small niche, and from what i know, there is very little or no representation in the Eu....what do you all think ?....but maybe I'm wrong, who knows ?.

What are your thoughts on the Kitcar industry today and where do you feel the new designs are going to come from ? from what niches ?

It would be nice to have some feedback from all of you in the kitcar forum..

Cheers
Italo

[andygtt]

fuoriserie said:

I'm bumping up this thread, as I think there is some really good information in it.

Trying to Look at a positive future of "where kit car designs should be heading" in 2016 and behond.

Maybe it'a about time that also the kitcar Industry as a whole, gets together in some sort of a association os similar institution, to continue lobbing the EU, in keeping the Single Vehicle or Small Vehicle Type Approval as is and still affordable and available.

What I'm afraid of, is that the Industry is underestimating the EU influence in such a small niche, and from what i know, there is very little or no representation in the Eu....what do you all think ?....but maybe I'm wrong, who knows ?.

What are your thoughts on the Kitcar industry today and where do you feel the new designs are going to come from ? from what niches ?

It would be nice to have some feedback from all of you in the kitcar forum..

Cheers
Italo

I share you concerns about the impact of the EU on our niches like lit cars, radically modified cars, classics etc

Ive done quite a bit of research into registering a car recently to get to the bottom of what exactly is allowable as I wanted to build an old classic with my own modern twist on it.
The reason I went into detail is the existing DVLA rules have been in place for something like 30 years... but they have not really been fully understood or properly clarified. I think its deliberately vague so they can catch ringers etc.

The issue is that whilst I'm not sure if these rules will become stricter with us becoming aligned with EU. I do think our existing rules could actually become more enforced.

For example, for a car to 'retain' its original registration the original chassis must be used, lets use a MR2 ferrari rebody as an example, the chassis is actually a monocoque and as such it MUST remain unmodified, DVLA have issued a few clarifications over the years and as such cutting the arches, bulked, tunnel etc are ALL classified as modifications.
So what does this mean... it means this car looses its existing identity and has be registered with age proven as a different car.... so all those Mk2 escorts with 4 link rears... hot rods with modified bulkheads to fit a V8 etc etc are all technically registered incorrectly... unless of cause these modifications were specifically declared to DVLA and they agreed them.
Now IMO with current MOT etc going electronic these rules are going to start to be more heavily enforced, the garages will be forced to confirm the car matches its description i.e., engine size, chassis modification, colour, shape etc etc and will be held accountable if they wrongly apply the rules.

My project for example is a Capri which I bought specifically for the project... idea was to slap in a 5L V10, cut the roof off and replace it with carbon one, cut the arches and fit a wide body, fit a 4 link and roll cage... so a month or so in I find 3 of my mods will render the capri not legit in DVLA eyes requiring IVA and registration as a Q plate. I didn't care about IVA, Im kinda in agreement a project like this should be checked over and conform... but given the investment a Q was a big no way.

Therefore my plans quickly changed to building a full new space frame chassis with my own design of suspension and me taking moulds of my existing capri with the body mods I have started to do and then making a completely new body in carbon fibre.

So you can see the current trend as I personally see it has radically ultered my plans and Im effectively designing an all new kit car instead of modifying an existing car lol

[Steffan]

andygtt said:

fuoriserie said:

I'm bumping up this thread, as I think there is some really good information in it.

Trying to Look at a positive future of "where kit car designs should be heading" in 2016 and behond.

Maybe it'a about time that also the kitcar Industry as a whole, gets together in some sort of a association os similar institution, to continue lobbing the EU, in keeping the Single Vehicle or Small Vehicle Type Approval as is and still affordable and available.

What I'm afraid of, is that the Industry is underestimating the EU influence in such a small niche, and from what i know, there is very little or no representation in the Eu....what do you all think ?....but maybe I'm wrong, who knows ?.

What are your thoughts on the Kitcar industry today and where do you feel the new designs are going to come from ? from what niches ?

It would be nice to have some feedback from all of you in the kitcar forum..

Cheers
Italo

I share you concerns about the impact of the EU on our niches like lit cars, radically modified cars, classics etc

Ive done quite a bit of research into registering a car recently to get to the bottom of what exactly is allowable as I wanted to build an old classic with my own modern twist on it.
The reason I went into detail is the existing DVLA rules have been in place for something like 30 years... but they have not really been fully understood or properly clarified. I think its deliberately vague so they can catch ringers etc.

The issue is that whilst I'm not sure if these rules will become stricter with us becoming aligned with EU. I do think our existing rules could actually become more enforced.

For example, for a car to 'retain' its original registration the original chassis must be used, lets use a MR2 ferrari rebody as an example, the chassis is actually a monocoque and as such it MUST remain unmodified, DVLA have issued a few clarifications over the years and as such cutting the arches, bulked, tunnel etc are ALL classified as modifications.
So what does this mean... it means this car looses its existing identity and has be registered with age proven as a different car.... so all those Mk2 escorts with 4 link rears... hot rods with modified bulkheads to fit a V8 etc etc are all technically registered incorrectly... unless of cause these modifications were specifically declared to DVLA and they agreed them.
Now IMO with current MOT etc going electronic these rules are going to start to be more heavily enforced, the garages will be forced to confirm the car matches its description i.e., engine size, chassis modification, colour, shape etc etc and will be held accountable if they wrongly apply the rules.

My project for example is a Capri which I bought specifically for the project... idea was to slap in a 5L V10, cut the roof off and replace it with carbon one, cut the arches and fit a wide body, fit a 4 link and roll cage... so a month or so in I find 3 of my mods will render the capri not legit in DVLA eyes requiring IVA and registration as a Q plate. I didn't care about IVA, Im kinda in agreement a project like this should be checked over and conform... but given the investment a Q was a big no way.

Therefore my plans quickly changed to building a full new space frame chassis with my own design of suspension and me taking moulds of my existing capri with the body mods I have started to do and then making a completely new body in carbon fibre.

So you can see the current trend as I personally see it has radically ultered my plans and Im effectively designing an all new kit car instead of modifying an existing car lol

Absolutely spot on observations on the difficulty that radical alterations to existing cars are now causing. I share all your concerns.

To my mind, radical attractions involving any serious changes to the chassis of existing registered vehicles does almost certainly require IVA. Indeed I think every specials builder using an existing car has to be aware of the fact nowadays. However there are those that argue that they could get around the problem, if it arose. Personally i cannot see how given the requirements of the DVLA.

I also share your concerns that Q plates are significtantly less attractive than age related plates. Fact of life in kit cars IMO and I have been building kit cars and modifying cars for more than 50 years. With a Q plate on the type of project you are contemplating I am absolutely certain that the residual value would be lower. It is costly enough to build such cars without the certainty that subsequent sales values, will be, at best, much lower which on a Q plate I think it would.

I have no answers at all to the problem but I can see why you are concerned!

Turning to the efforts of Italo in pushing on the discussion of kit car building and how Kit Car designs might be adapted to offer new opportunities that could offer additional approaches I do hope that others, post their views, on this thread. I have seen enough Sevenesque kit cars over many years to hope that no more will be created.

Surely a svelte low purely fun modern kit car that is not redolent of the seven shape and style at an affordable build cost for the enthusiasts should be possible in the UK? There is a plethora of ageing cars with excellent mechanics, about, which might offer an interesting choice of underpinnings? I for one, cetainly hope they do. Any thoughts!?

[Nikolai]

I can't see the 2 normal kit car avenues being expanded by new manufacturing techniques due to the investment costs. Inrekor and Istream , carbon monocoques, etc; its not going to happen in reality, otherwise you end up having to go the whole hog an produce an Elise rival like the Zenos/Vuhl.

However, in 'the olden days' kit cars did something mainstream manufacturers didn't, which is comparatively cheap lightweight little sportscars, or outlandish novel designs. These days manufacturers have to comply with pedestrian impact regs and so on, so they can't make a slinky little 2 seater or similar; the kit industry can. A kit car can look just like a concept car (within the realms of IVA), car companies have to water the same concept down

In my opinion, a steel spaceframe mid engine chassis that uses cheap and common parts would be a good platform for any type of body, be it modern and edgy, or classic and 'pretty'. Avoiding expensive 3 axis milling of foam bucks, its just down to hard work and time to make a body.

There's plenty of undeveloped niches still, which is good because I think anything that looks like the Zenos etc is not going to be worth pursuing now, at least not if any decent number of kit sales is desired.

[fuoriserie]

I would like to Thank the guys that posted their views on this thread and agree with all of them.

I would like to add something new and believe that quite a few Kitcar manufactures could diversify into Urban Mobility Vehicles, pretty much the future of our Cities in the next 20-30yrs....

For those interested, look at these videos for more info, in what they're preparing for us...in some cases, it's exciting in others it's worrying, but burocrats, politicians and Mobility experts are already discussing our future mobility and wonder if this industry can survive as a niche manufacture, of only 2 seater track day cars or a few replicas ? or can it look into other niches that will be opened by the design of new city planning mobility ?



Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ouWcgUn7m8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZOIdONACKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFeSrG7gjvU

[Ozzie Dave]

I agree with most comments, but see another market, how about a fun styled light commercial, something with rear body panels that are simple and easily changeable. a modern version of the Towns Hussler concept, maybe even a bit of a moke, this could be a simple FWD unit with a low floorplan. ideal for light deliveries or commerial, or even a small cheap about town fun car that kids would love.
It would need to be easy to make, and flexible in its underpinnings also, with maybe a simple chassis and roll cage with a pre-assebled floor and baulkheads. In otherword, almost a starter kit where people would be able to use the running gear, lights and electrics without modification.

[Nikolai]

Ozzie Dave said:

I agree with most comments, but see another market, how about a fun styled light commercial, something with rear body panels that are simple and easily changeable. a modern version of the Towns Hussler concept, maybe even a bit of a moke, this could be a simple FWD unit with a low floorplan. ideal for light deliveries or commerial, or even a small cheap about town fun car that kids would love.
It would need to be easy to make, and flexible in its underpinnings also, with maybe a simple chassis and roll cage with a pre-assebled floor and baulkheads. In otherword, almost a starter kit where people would be able to use the running gear, lights and electrics without modification.

I've thought of this as well, do you remember the Mojo Swap Tops cartoon from the 80's? Interchangeable back bit for a variety of jobs!

[Ozzie Dave]

Sorry never heard of Mojos, I was thinking of the towns hussler, The 6 wheeler especially, there were multiple 'rears' from standard , microcars, even icream trucks.
Even now the 6 wheeler V6 looks great.
It was a very flexible platorm which was easily modified. Even now it looks a good staring point, would love to see what Italo could do to bring it to life again. with a FWD engine and box it could become a very usefull modern 'ute' with van style acces for many businesses and uses. a simple removeable/adaptable roof making it suitable for many small businesses.in smaller form it becomes a modern moke.

[docter fox]

I own a Robin Hood with my dad and although it's no track special, it's great fun on those rare sunny days. Sadly it's now also 230 miles away from my house and that greatly limits how much I can drive it! I was recently in the market to buy a toy that I could keep down here and looked at a Fisher Fury as I've always wanted one! When I was looking (April), for around 5k I could get a fairly tidy pinto engined one or a slightly tatty Zetec example. In the end I bought a 3.0 Z4 that is much more civilised, has a roof that works, I fit comfortably and it's still fairly quick and good fun with the roof down. As a weekend car rather than pure track car, sadly it just made more sense. I think the problem facing new kitcar manufacturers is that they're now up against a lot more competition from second hand cars and for the same budget, it'll never be as good a finish.

[Steffan]

X

docter fox said:

I own a Robin Hood with my dad and although it's no track special, it's great fun on those rare sunny days. Sadly it's now also 230 miles away from my house and that greatly limits how much I can drive it! I was recently in the market to buy a toy that I could keep down here and looked at a Fisher Fury as I've always wanted one! When I was looking (April), for around 5k I could get a fairly tidy pinto engined one or a slightly tatty Zetec example. In the end I bought a 3.0 Z4 that is much more civilised, has a roof that works, I fit comfortably and it's still fairly quick and good fun with the roof down. As a weekend car rather than pure track car, sadly it just made more sense. I think the problem facing new kitcar manufacturers is that they're now up against a lot more competition from second hand cars and for the same budget, it'll never be as good a finish.

I started building kit cars more than 50 years ago. At tha time and for many years kit cars offerred a real alternative to run of the mill motoring. With modern build quality and rust resistance secondhand sports cars are now reliable fun transport for many, many years after construction and I can underand the Z4 choice.

I still build three or four kit cars a year although residency in Italy currently has reduced that output significantly. I own a jnumbers kit cars and I always have and I really enjoy the scene. But it does seem to me that the modern complexities of registration and significant cost has militated against kit cars whii regret. I am still building cars but with a few notable exceptions the kit car is not what it once was. More's the Pity!

[Ozzie Dave]

Hi Steffan, You are correct, we all expect more for our money, you need to be ecentric to buy a kit, someone who does not mind tinkering every few weeks, does not mind oversize shut lines, slightly crazy styling or even driving with a towel in your lap for the water coming in through the windscreen when it rains. I look back with fondness at some of the crazy things I have done (naby would not be tolerated now days (only 20-30 years later) and look at my son who drives a second hand WRX and wonders why I was so srazy as to do that, when he can just jump in it and drive for far less money.
We need to understand that the companies need to make a profit, and be recompensed for their work, and dont have the tens of millions to develop like the main stream companies.
I suspect that the best direction for introducing younger people to kits may be the likes if tribute and Bertoni, they wont tolerate what we enjoyed.

[Stuart Mills]

yet another MX5 based car;
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/japanes...

[andygtt]

Stuart Mills said:

yet another MX5 based car;
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/japanes...

Given the DVLA rules, how is it possible to register a rebody car like this except on a Q plate?

[Steffan]

andygtt said:

Stuart Mills said:

yet another MX5 based car;
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/japanes...

Given the DVLA rules, how is it possible to register a rebody car like this except on a Q plate?

On the basis that the MX 5 underpinnings including the engine, gearbox etc are retained then IVA and registration on an age related basis should be possible, I would have thought. Providing the points system used by the DVLA is understood and followed then I would not see problem. Once the car is registered in that new form then changes of major components could be made: if the engine was replaced, for example.

Utilising the matched synchronised original underpinnings strikes me as the best was to build a kit car nowadays. One donor kit cars must be the least exacting approach I think? The underlying frame from the MX 5 retaining the major components must make the transfer much simpler. Massive availability of after market mods for the MX5 must also be advantageous. Seems a very good approach to me.

[cymtriks]

There is an obvious gap in the market.

Just drive past any garage and look at the new cars. Huge and ugly. Even manufacturers that are famous for pretty cars (the Italians for example) are now producing cars that are bigger and heavier than some commercial vehicles were when I was a kid. Take a look in the "Classics dwarfed by Moderns" in the classic section for many more examples.

Now look at some of the classics from the late fifties and sixties. Lots of compact and pretty designs. The sixties Alfas look lovely. Why not make a four seater along those lines?

[JontyR]

Steffan said:

andygtt said:

Stuart Mills said:

yet another MX5 based car;
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/japanes...

Given the DVLA rules, how is it possible to register a rebody car like this except on a Q plate?

On the basis that the MX 5 underpinnings including the engine, gearbox etc are retained then IVA and registration on an age related basis should be possible, I would have thought. Providing the points system used by the DVLA is understood and followed then I would not see problem. Once the car is registered in that new form then changes of major components could be made: if the engine was replaced, for example.

Utilising the matched synchronised original underpinnings strikes me as the best was to build a kit car nowadays. One donor kit cars must be the least exacting approach I think? The underlying frame from the MX 5 retaining the major components must make the transfer much simpler. Massive availability of after market mods for the MX5 must also be advantageous. Seems a very good approach to me.

My interpretation of this is it is using brand new OE parts and so is a "Component Car" and not a "Kit Car". Semantics I know, but I think it is the difference between buying all new parts and slowly stripping one car to build another.

This is designed to take on Morgan and with a slightly hefty premium to boot!

[fuoriserie]

http://www.mcia.co.uk/Campaigns/EU-Type-Approval-R...

Some changes for Motorcycle Type Approval in 2016.

[andygtt]

JontyR said:

Steffan said:

andygtt said:

Stuart Mills said:

yet another MX5 based car;
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/japanes...

Given the DVLA rules, how is it possible to register a rebody car like this except on a Q plate?

On the basis that the MX 5 underpinnings including the engine, gearbox etc are retained then IVA and registration on an age related basis should be possible, I would have thought. Providing the points system used by the DVLA is understood and followed then I would not see problem. Once the car is registered in that new form then changes of major components could be made: if the engine was replaced, for example.

Utilising the matched synchronised original underpinnings strikes me as the best was to build a kit car nowadays. One donor kit cars must be the least exacting approach I think? The underlying frame from the MX 5 retaining the major components must make the transfer much simpler. Massive availability of after market mods for the MX5 must also be advantageous. Seems a very good approach to me.

My interpretation of this is it is using brand new OE parts and so is a "Component Car" and not a "Kit Car". Semantics I know, but I think it is the difference between buying all new parts and slowly stripping one car to build another.

This is designed to take on Morgan and with a slightly hefty premium to boot!

DVLA rules state that to retain the original cars identity the chassis must remain unmodified and completely to the original manufacturers specification, 5 points are given for the unmodified chassis and MUST be included... so you can't add up loads of bits to over 8 points and claim its the same car on a different or new chassis.

However done a quick search and I can see how this is possible for an MX5.... unlike most other 'modern' cars it runs a separate chassis to body, thus you can simply remove the body and fit a new design on it retaining the cars original identity.

This is not the case for a lot of the other body change kit cars like the ferrari replicas etc that have used a monocoque car as their donor.

Must admit I didn't realise some modern cars still used a separate chassis to body, I thought all of the them (except real low volume ones) had moved to a moncoque.


What I was trying to understand is if its possible to modify one cars chassis to make a new design.... then take major components from another 'donor' car and then register the car as age related on the new 'donor'.... or does it HAVE to be a brand new chassis?

so take 2 examples.
1. Build a 7 replica, make your own body and chassis, fit entire running gear of 'donor' sierra.... register on age related to the 'donor' sierra.

2. Build a 7 replica, use a heavily modified mx5 chassis, use the windscreen frame from an MX5 but make most of the body, fit entire running gear of 'donor' sierra.... Register on age related plate based on the 'donor' sierra?????

see the subtle difference? anyone know the exact 'rules' around this?