legalities of Bike engines in minis or mini based kits
Discussion
I have been through the old SVA process three times and whilst I have not yet experienced IVA I understand it is much the same only tougher/more expensive. Since I am into motorbikes and kit cars, I thought my next project could be a bike engined mini or preferably a bike engined GTM coupe. I have read several articles and visited Promotive's web site that details ingenious ways of making this happen using standard drive shafts and a custom reverse.
Heres the thing that confuses me - No one seems to make reference to the requirement for an IVA when the front mini subframe is quite clearly cut and modified to suit the bike engine. The FAQ section even says it was developed to be fully road legal.
A lot of people who modify minis seem to think that the IVA is something that 'only effects kit cars' but it is my understanding that these mods to the subframes will warrant an IVA test even if the shell is untouched. This being the case, I would imagine that there would then be many other areas associated with the mini or certainly GTM coupe that would be impossible to address once the need of a test has been evoked.
I am not necessarily trying to dodge the IVA but would like to know the reality of being able to get such a project on the road if I am going to invest time and money doing this. Comments especially from anyone who has completed a Promotive kit would be gratefully received.
Heres the thing that confuses me - No one seems to make reference to the requirement for an IVA when the front mini subframe is quite clearly cut and modified to suit the bike engine. The FAQ section even says it was developed to be fully road legal.
A lot of people who modify minis seem to think that the IVA is something that 'only effects kit cars' but it is my understanding that these mods to the subframes will warrant an IVA test even if the shell is untouched. This being the case, I would imagine that there would then be many other areas associated with the mini or certainly GTM coupe that would be impossible to address once the need of a test has been evoked.
I am not necessarily trying to dodge the IVA but would like to know the reality of being able to get such a project on the road if I am going to invest time and money doing this. Comments especially from anyone who has completed a Promotive kit would be gratefully received.
The Promotive kit looks very interesting and would be great in the back of a GTM Coupe.
In terms of the subframe it is modified rather than replaced. This would be to change engine mounts etc? The mini is also a monocoque and that is unaltered. In that case it wouldn't require IVA.
You are quite right that a lot of people modify cars that should then require IVA. I would imagine most wouldn't pass on lights, edges, vision etc etc. The DVLA seem to turn a blind eye as them and VOSA couldn't possibly cope if they had to test all the modified cars.
In terms of the subframe it is modified rather than replaced. This would be to change engine mounts etc? The mini is also a monocoque and that is unaltered. In that case it wouldn't require IVA.
You are quite right that a lot of people modify cars that should then require IVA. I would imagine most wouldn't pass on lights, edges, vision etc etc. The DVLA seem to turn a blind eye as them and VOSA couldn't possibly cope if they had to test all the modified cars.
guy_spyder550 said:
Just reading this one from last year. So what happens if you used a custom tubular sub-frame up front which mounts to the original shell. Would that require IVA?
No. As long as the chassis/monocoque remains un-altered,no IVA is required. The addition of mounting brackets (ie.for supporting different body panels) doesn't constitute a chassis change. Sub-frames aren't part of the chassis/monocoque.You'd just have to inform DVLA of the engine change and they might a require a letter from a garage to confirm the change.
AdiT said:
Sub-frames aren't part of the chassis/monocoque.
This is the key to this discussion. Is this something that has been confirmed by VOSA?Personally, I would consider the subframe to be part of the chassis, although I can also appreciate how it could be argued that it isn't - particularly from a safety point of view as any difference in impact protection would be minimal.
Another point would be how the subframe is modified - if it's cut and rewelded, I would suggest this would be considered differently than if extra brackets were bolted on to locate the bike engine.
Frankthered said:
This is the key to this discussion. Is this something that has been confirmed by VOSA?
Personally, I would consider the subframe to be part of the chassis, although I can also appreciate how it could be argued that it isn't - particularly from a safety point of view as any difference in impact protection would be minimal.
Another point would be how the subframe is modified - if it's cut and rewelded, I would suggest this would be considered differently than if extra brackets were bolted on to locate the bike engine.
If you ordered a replacement chassis/monocoque shell for a classic Mini, would you expect it to come with the sub-frames?Personally, I would consider the subframe to be part of the chassis, although I can also appreciate how it could be argued that it isn't - particularly from a safety point of view as any difference in impact protection would be minimal.
Another point would be how the subframe is modified - if it's cut and rewelded, I would suggest this would be considered differently than if extra brackets were bolted on to locate the bike engine.
AdiT said:
If you ordered a replacement chassis/monocoque shell for a classic Mini, would you expect it to come with the sub-frames?
I do take your point but I wouldn't order a Mini "chassis", would I? I would order a Mini shell and accordingly get what I paid for.I was just wondering if your statement was based on actual experience or if it was just an informed opinion.
I appreciate that there is logic in what you say, but logic doesn't always work with the DVLA and/or VOSA!!
This has not yet been formally put to the test, if it were I believe that modifying the subframe would require an IVA, much in the same way that changing the engine mounts in other vehicles does. There is a thread somewhere on the internet of a guy who has put a Rover T series Turbo in a mini who had built a completely new subframe from scratch, he was told by by DVLA(?)that IVA was most definitely required. They also 'cancelled' the identity of the mini he had modified. DVLA were able to identify it from the photos he supplied when he asked for their advice.
Future state will have all 'improperly' registered vehicles off of the road, there are quite a few landrover drivers who are running around on borrowed time.
Future state will have all 'improperly' registered vehicles off of the road, there are quite a few landrover drivers who are running around on borrowed time.
The term "Chassis" in the DVLA/VOSA paperwork is a general term only.
The only reason they also use the term "monocoque" it to stop smart ar5e feckwits from trying it on.
The purpose of the SVA/IVA test is to determine if the structure of the vehicle being tested is safe.
From that would you not conclude that "structure" would include anything that connects the wheels to the drivers seat and vehicle controls etc?
By denying that a subframe is (In effect) part of the monocoque/chassis you are only kidding yourself.
Try calling VOSA technical and see how far you get.
The only reason they also use the term "monocoque" it to stop smart ar5e feckwits from trying it on.
The purpose of the SVA/IVA test is to determine if the structure of the vehicle being tested is safe.
From that would you not conclude that "structure" would include anything that connects the wheels to the drivers seat and vehicle controls etc?
By denying that a subframe is (In effect) part of the monocoque/chassis you are only kidding yourself.
Try calling VOSA technical and see how far you get.
vx220 said:
Isn't the promotive the one where an engine cradle bolts up to a standard mini subframe?
I think this was partially answered over a year ago by an especially helpful chap from Essex?Can't remember if it was the Lynx AE one or Promotive, bolts to existing existing mounts in an unmodified subframe; but it was one of them
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