Three Wheeler Kitcar Racing

Three Wheeler Kitcar Racing

Author
Discussion

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
quotequote all
I was looking at this classic Morgan Three Wheeler racing at Donington and wondered how come no one is organising soemthing like it for modern three wheeler kits ?

We have some great three wheeler being manufactured and I'm sure it would be a unique racing series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEmcCfDiyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vUUtCsvFKs


Steffan

10,362 posts

227 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
quotequote all
fuoriserie said:
I was looking at this classic Morgan Three Wheeler racing at Donington and wondered how come no one is organising soemthing like it for modern three wheeler kits ?

We have some great three wheeler being manufactured and I'm sure it would be a unique racing series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lEmcCfDiyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vUUtCsvFKs
The various threads on kit car shows/non appearance of manufacturers/complaints about the costs etc and dwindling attendance and disappearing shows suggest to me that the problem would be getting the confidence of the manufacturers to actually take the risk and attend. I might be wrong and I hope I am, but currently I do not see huge efforts from kit car manufacturers as a whole.

There are notable exceptions such as Stuart Mills, or MEV fame whose enthusiasm and energy is a joy to behold which coupled with the design ability and engineering skills he has in abundance explains the success of his designs and kit sales. Generally I do not see anything like that creativity, energy and output in British Kit car manufacturing, which is a pity.

As you know, I love three wheeler's beyond all others so I personally wish your suggestion every success!! But being an Accountant for 40++ years has made me aware of the consequences of costs concerns and the effect on confidence this can have in businesses. I hope your idea floats some interest within Kit Car manufactuers a but in a post IVA (or MSVA here) world I do wonder.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
quotequote all
This is the list of potential three wheeler manufactures that could particpate in a 3Wheeler Championship:

Just from the UK you would find these:
http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/desktopindex.html
http://www.blackjackzero.com/mainindex.htm
http://www.grinnallcars.com/scorpion-III-sports-ca...
http://trikingsportscars.co.uk/
http://www.roadtrackrace.co.uk/rtr_tr1ke.html
http://www.malonecar.eclipse.co.uk/
http://www.spitfireart.com/brahistory.html
http://www.pembleton.co.uk/
http://www.penguinspeedshop.com/news/original-buck...
http://www.frsmotorsport.com/
http://jzrpa.com/

France
http://www.rayvolutioncars.com/

USA
http://tanommotors.com/

Canada
http://www.campagnamotors.com/
http://www.g-2cycles.com/

Australia
http://www.tripodcars.com/faq.html

Poland
http://www.marotti.eu/index.html

I'm sure I've left out a few others, but just these manufactures would be enough for a great 3wheeler Championship

In the mix you would also have one-off thee wheeler prototypes and projects, plus other DIY designs

http://www.rqriley.com/3-wheel.htm
http://www.vortexplans.com/

Just need to see somebody work on organizing it...smile

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 23 June 21:32

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
quotequote all
Steffan said:
The various threads on kit car shows/non appearance of manufacturers/complaints about the costs etc and dwindling attendance and disappearing shows suggest to me that the problem would be getting the confidence of the manufacturers to actually take the risk and attend. I might be wrong and I hope I am, but currently I do not see huge efforts from kit car manufacturers as a whole.

There are notable exceptions such as Stuart Mills, or MEV fame whose enthusiasm and energy is a joy to behold which coupled with the design ability and engineering skills he has in abundance explains the success of his designs and kit sales. Generally I do not see anything like that creativity, energy and output in British Kit car manufacturing, which is a pity.

As you know, I love three wheeler's beyond all others so I personally wish your suggestion every success!! But being an Accountant for 40++ years has made me aware of the consequences of costs concerns and the effect on confidence this can have in businesses. I hope your idea floats some interest within Kit Car manufactuers a but in a post IVA (or MSVA here) world I do wonder.
True, but maybe the manufactures could see this as a benefit to get first hand racing experience and information to improve their product, while giving 3wheeler enthusiast and non, some great racing to watch, especially different from the norm.

Maybe a Three Wheelr Manufacture Association might help if it exhisted or maybe it's time it did....

The old ways of doing things work no more, things have changed and we all have to be more creative in organising things, shows, races to entertain, inform and enjoy enthusiasts.

Just an idea, but I'm sure quite a few others in the industry feel the same but are less vocal than I am.....biggrin

Steffan

10,362 posts

227 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
quotequote all
fuoriserie said:
Steffan said:
The various threads on kit car shows/non appearance of manufacturers/complaints about the costs etc and dwindling attendance and disappearing shows suggest to me that the problem would be getting the confidence of the manufacturers to actually take the risk and attend. I might be wrong and I hope I am, but currently I do not see huge efforts from kit car manufacturers as a whole.

There are notable exceptions such as Stuart Mills, or MEV fame whose enthusiasm and energy is a joy to behold which coupled with the design ability and engineering skills he has in abundance explains the success of his designs and kit sales. Generally I do not see anything like that creativity, energy and output in British Kit car manufacturing, which is a pity.

As you know, I love three wheeler's beyond all others so I personally wish your suggestion every success!! But being an Accountant for 40++ years has made me aware of the consequences of costs concerns and the effect on confidence this can have in businesses. I hope your idea floats some interest within Kit Car manufactuers a but in a post IVA (or MSVA here) world I do wonder.
True, but maybe the manufactures could see this as a benefit to get first hand racing experience and information to improve their product, while giving 3wheeler enthusiast and non, some great racing to watch, especially different from the norm.

Maybe a Three Wheelr Manufacture Association might help if it exhisted or maybe it's time it did....

The old ways of doing things work no more, things have changed and we all have to be more creative in organising things, shows, races to entertain, inform and enjoy enthusiasts.

Just an idea, but I'm sure quite a few others in the industry feel the same but are less vocal than I am.....biggrin
The enthusiast in me makes me support your suggestion in every way!! However (Accountant bit again!BORING) when I contributed on the Three wheelers thread on PH, about Opinions Sought on Three Wheelers, I quoted the Telegraph Magazine article where a number of these current cars on offer to the public, were tested and in several cases the journalist was quite swathing in his criticism of kit cars offered for test with fundamental defects like premature wheel lift, seriously affecting handling and very poor throttle response caused by incorrect cam settings making the engine on the car tested very poor OTR. This does not auger well for the manufacturers concerned.

I entirely support your comments that "The old ways of doing things work no more, things have changed and we all have to be more creative in organising things, shows, races to entertain, inform and enjoy enthusiasts.". That is absolutely the case. I agree with that sentiment. Sadly as the kit car business is currently structured I believe that the consequences and cost loading of IVA have fundamentally altered the appreciation of how easy it is to actually build a car and get it on the road legally in the UK. That is the major stumbling block currently and the proliferation of body panel kits on the web which are supposed not to require IVA (which I have grave doubts about, personally) demonstrates the extent to which IVA is a stumbling block to volume sales of kit cars.

Basing a car on a totally outdated chassis like the Triumph Herald and building a rebodied vehicle which will have all the inherent vices of the original car seems to me to be utter madness. The fact that so many manufacturers are following that line of sales, in different forms, makes the point IMO. Currently with a few enervated exceptions, times are very hard for KC manufacturers and in consequence enthusiasm is being weakened. I do wish that this were not the case, but it is and the visible effects include low confidence amongst kit car manufacturers. How we can address that I know not sadly.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Monday 23rd June 2014
quotequote all
Steffan said:
The enthusiast in me makes me support your suggestion in every way!! However (Accountant bit again!BORING) when I contributed on the Three wheelers thread on PH, about Opinions Sought on Three Wheelers, I quoted the Telegraph Magazine article where a number of these current cars on offer to the public, were tested and in several cases the journalist was quite swathing in his criticism of kit cars offered for test with fundamental defects like premature wheel lift, seriously affecting handling and very poor throttle response caused by incorrect cam settings making the engine on the car tested very poor OTR. This does not auger well for the manufacturers concerned.

I entirely support your comments that "The old ways of doing things work no more, things have changed and we all have to be more creative in organising things, shows, races to entertain, inform and enjoy enthusiasts.". That is absolutely the case. I agree with that sentiment. Sadly as the kit car business is currently structured I believe that the consequences and cost loading of IVA have fundamentally altered the appreciation of how easy it is to actually build a car and get it on the road legally in the UK. That is the major stumbling block currently and the proliferation of body panel kits on the web which are supposed not to require IVA (which I have grave doubts about, personally) demonstrates the extent to which IVA is a stumbling block to volume sales of kit cars.

Basing a car on a totally outdated chassis like the Triumph Herald and building a rebodied vehicle which will have all the inherent vices of the original car seems to me to be utter madness. The fact that so many manufacturers are following that line of sales, in different forms, makes the point IMO. Currently with a few enervated exceptions, times are very hard for KC manufacturers and in consequence enthusiasm is being weakened. I do wish that this were not the case, but it is and the visible effects include low confidence amongst kit car manufacturers. How we can address that I know not sadly.
Maybe go back to the Grassroots approach with a modern twist, might make things interesting again for kitcar manufacturers.

Maybe we've lost the enthusiastic approach that we all had in the 60's and 70's, the idea of building something simple and fun to use for racing, touring or other at an acceptable price.

Three Wheelers, in my opinion, are still simpler to build and cheaper in some cases than four wheeler kits.

Maybe we have lost the word affordable and buildable for most kits but not all and that might be one of the problems.

In my personal opinion, affordable three wheeler racing, could become a perfect testing method for those kits that still need some tweeking and improve the perception among the masses, of these unique vehicles.

I still think that its better than doing nothing as is now and it wouldn't take a lot to organize something really interesting, with so many circuits available and organizations willing to diversify their offerings.

You just need a group of willing people to do something....If an association that represents the kitcar industry as whole is not created in the near future, the interest of everyone will be affected.
Lobbying at the EU level will be needed if this industry is to survive and the sooner some associations are created the stronger the interest of the industry can be herd in Brussels.

As you say, some manufacturers are doing great but most are suffering and maybe this is the time to band together.

Just an idea.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Tuesday 24th June 2014
quotequote all

Stuart Mills

1,208 posts

205 months

Tuesday 24th June 2014
quotequote all
I would agree, this would be a great idea. BUT the obstacle's are;
1. Most trikes are not MSA compliant.
2. Most trikes vary enormously in performance and would not be suited to race each other.
3. Imagine the start line when a MEV or Grinnall leave an old wheezing Morgan behind.
4. When sales are slow for some companies they would tend to be less likely to join forces with competitors.
5. Some UK circuits do not allow trikes due to some being more prone to rolling than others!
6. Finding new customers who wish to commit and invest in a race car, then build it, then turn up to race a couple of years later after they have finished it can lead to a slow build up of numbers on grids.
7. Paying for 1/2 empty grids is the issue. Exactly why UK circuits charge 20-40k for a race weekend is beyond me. The circuit owners are the reasons that motor sport is not growing as quickly as it could. I know there are hidden costs but when an ambulance costs £200, a fire tender the same, marshals' are volunteer's then I personally cannot see justification for ridiculous fees. They do have to cut the grass and sweep up though, have I missed something?


fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Tuesday 24th June 2014
quotequote all
Stuart Mills said:
I would agree, this would be a great idea. BUT the obstacle's are;
1. Most trikes are not MSA compliant.
2. Most trikes vary enormously in performance and would not be suited to race each other.
3. Imagine the start line when a MEV or Grinnall leave an old wheezing Morgan behind.
4. When sales are slow for some companies they would tend to be less likely to join forces with competitors.
5. Some UK circuits do not allow trikes due to some being more prone to rolling than others!
6. Finding new customers who wish to commit and invest in a race car, then build it, then turn up to race a couple of years later after they have finished it can lead to a slow build up of numbers on grids.
7. Paying for 1/2 empty grids is the issue. Exactly why UK circuits charge 20-40k for a race weekend is beyond me. The circuit owners are the reasons that motor sport is not growing as quickly as it could. I know there are hidden costs but when an ambulance costs £200, a fire tender the same, marshals' are volunteer's then I personally cannot see justification for ridiculous fees. They do have to cut the grass and sweep up though, have I missed something?
True, but we could find a solution to all of the above, if we really wanted to do something.

1- Get Trikes to comply with MSA

2- Get trikes in similar classes for racing, use HP or cc. and create a range of trikes that could participate.
It would actually give manufactures more sale options by supplying Trikes with different motorcycle engines to participate in different classes.

3- I would like to see the grid with Mev's, Grinnal's, Morgan's maybe the newer versions and T-Rex Campagna's race each other...I'm sure it would be a lot o fun.smile


I could reply to all of your consideraqtions and continue, but as I said earlier, even if there are tangible reasons to overcome they wouldn't be that difficult to overcome, if like minded people really wanted to do something like this.

It's up to the kitcar Manufacturers to come up with new ideas to show their product and I still believe that racing, is a great opportunity for all those involved and if it's at a Grassroots level, than the better.

Maybe time will come in the future....

3wheeler

6 posts

152 months

Wednesday 19th November 2014
quotequote all
Sorry Guys, I'm a bit late picking up on this thread. If anyone out there is interested in some serious motorsport in a threewheeler then I would suggest you take a look at hillclimbing. This is done under ACU (bike) regs as a result of Morgans embarrassing expensive machinery before the last war (and still do at VSCC meets where I've watched them thrashing Bugattis). Threewheelers were then banned from racing against cars but got acccepted under bike regs and race as sidecars and therefore have to carry a passenger or ballast. The NHCA (www.nhca.co.uk) organise the national hillclimb championship in the UK, but aren't too keen on threewheelers with steering wheels, preferring conventional trikes with handlebars and single front wheel (of which there are some very fast purpose-built trikes). This preference is due to someone building a one-off three-wheeler which went on to set hill records on most UK hills and upsetting the bikers. So there you have it, threewheelers are faster than bikes and cars. The Port Talbot Motorcycle Racing Club (www.ptmcrc.co.uk) organise a championship in Wales and are very threewheeler friendly. I have been running my Grinnall there for a number of years against some seriously quick opposition. Incidentally, if you still don't believe threewheelers are quick, my times at the Cholmondeley Pageant of Power were quicker than all the sports bikes and I was matching the Maclaren and Veyron (driven by Andy Wallace, so no slouch) (Watch www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt9TKxFTNyI).
I know a couple of modern trikes have been run at the Festival of Sidecars at Mallory Park, an also some highly modified Berkeleys also compete, so there are possibilities. Therefore, if anyone wanted to get a threewheeler series together there are a number machines already racing but it would probably need to be split into a number of subclasses and may also need to include sidecars to get the grids up. And yes, if anyone fancies organising it, I'd love to join in.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
3wheeler said:
Sorry Guys, I'm a bit late picking up on this thread. If anyone out there is interested in some serious motorsport in a threewheeler then I would suggest you take a look at hillclimbing. This is done under ACU (bike) regs as a result of Morgans embarrassing expensive machinery before the last war (and still do at VSCC meets where I've watched them thrashing Bugattis). Threewheelers were then banned from racing against cars but got acccepted under bike regs and race as sidecars and therefore have to carry a passenger or ballast. The NHCA (www.nhca.co.uk) organise the national hillclimb championship in the UK, but aren't too keen on threewheelers with steering wheels, preferring conventional trikes with handlebars and single front wheel (of which there are some very fast purpose-built trikes). This preference is due to someone building a one-off three-wheeler which went on to set hill records on most UK hills and upsetting the bikers. So there you have it, threewheelers are faster than bikes and cars. The Port Talbot Motorcycle Racing Club (www.ptmcrc.co.uk) organise a championship in Wales and are very threewheeler friendly. I have been running my Grinnall there for a number of years against some seriously quick opposition. Incidentally, if you still don't believe threewheelers are quick, my times at the Cholmondeley Pageant of Power were quicker than all the sports bikes and I was matching the Maclaren and Veyron (driven by Andy Wallace, so no slouch) (Watch www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt9TKxFTNyI).
I know a couple of modern trikes have been run at the Festival of Sidecars at Mallory Park, an also some highly modified Berkeleys also compete, so there are possibilities. Therefore, if anyone wanted to get a threewheeler series together there are a number machines already racing but it would probably need to be split into a number of subclasses and may also need to include sidecars to get the grids up. And yes, if anyone fancies organising it, I'd love to join in.
Thank you for your feedback and like your Scorpion three wheeler.

I agree with you that subclasses including sidecars could get grids up, but you would need the interest of threewheeler kitcar manufactures to start some kind of group or association, where they could lobby this niche into racing, being it hillclims, track or rally's or even raids/trips.

If the rules would accedpt one-off bespoke three wheelrs, you could really have big numbers on the grids...smile.

You could even create scooter based threewheeler racing and with companies like Pollini:http://www.polini.it/it/page_269.html

or Malossi: http://www.malossi.com/

You could create an affordable racing threewheeler class and if needed you could tune those scooter engines for racing.

I still believe there is a niche with potential but manufactures need to believe that this might create interest in their products, sales and fun for those involeved.

Maybe creating a threewheeler manufactures assocciation could be a first step, to get recognition for this niche and then use some lobbying power and create threewheeler championships...

Just a few thoughts, but if there is a will it could be done....smile