Furore has passed German TUV!
Discussion
Some years ago I posted on here enquiring about what was involved in getting a kitcar thro' the German TUV & after much discussion the basic consensus was "forget it". The reason why I was originally asking was that a German customer who'd bought several complete cars from us wanted to get them road legal over there, he never did & subsequently sold the cars. I've been in touch with one of the new owners ever since & he recently got a guy who's involved with Caterham in Germany to come & see me whilst he was over here visiting Caterham. We had some lengthy discussion about the German requirements & he went away saying he thought it would be possible - well just before Xmas he achieved it!
I just thought I would share as I'm sure there are potential German owners who'd love to get kits registered over there, so, don't despair, if you can get a bike engined Furore registered there must be hope for anything more mainstream! He did say that the fact that it was already UK registered made a difference.
I don't like the headlights or mirrors, but no doubt they were fitted to fulfil a requirement!
I just thought I would share as I'm sure there are potential German owners who'd love to get kits registered over there, so, don't despair, if you can get a bike engined Furore registered there must be hope for anything more mainstream! He did say that the fact that it was already UK registered made a difference.
I don't like the headlights or mirrors, but no doubt they were fitted to fulfil a requirement!
LLantrisant said:
what was the UK reg-date of that car? what engine is fitted? what emission classifications did it have in UK?
It was registered 2010 or 11, it's fitted with ZZR1400 engine which passed UK emissions with a CAT on the test in IVA, none of the above does it any favours for getting the TUV & German registration other than the fact that it has previously been UK reg.watching the pic of the car, plus referring to the reg-date and engine type fitted, this car has only passed the german tüv, because the tester has intentionally disregarded certain laws / requirements, possibly associated with false paperwork and / or a backdated registration date.
would be interesting to see the german documents....
its not unlikely that the german police would stop this car, suspect the paperwork with the consequence that the registration might be confiscated followed by a demand for back motor-vehicle taxes due to a false emission classification.
would be interesting to see the german documents....
its not unlikely that the german police would stop this car, suspect the paperwork with the consequence that the registration might be confiscated followed by a demand for back motor-vehicle taxes due to a false emission classification.
Honestly couldn't comment on the above as I don't know exactly what is required under German law nor what the car has achieved at test. Obviously the engine can be made to run at low emissions, we have to meet the standard CAT emissions test for IVA over here in the first place & I've personally put about half a dozen ZZR1400 engined cars thro' IVA without any real problems with the emissions test . I find it hard to believe that a tester would simply turn a blind eye to something & allow a vehicle to pass whatever it's condition/emissions etc. as it would be fairly easy to prove/disprove afterwards whether the car was actually capable of meeting the requirements.
I am still very pleased the guy has managed to get a (legitimate to the best of my knowledge) registration on the car.
I am still very pleased the guy has managed to get a (legitimate to the best of my knowledge) registration on the car.
may i ask about the weight of such a car and is there a reverse box fitted?
emission tests and classifications are bit different outside UK:
the "original" emissions of the (bike)engine have been apraised in a motorbike.
motorbike emmision classifications are completely different (1. in terms of emission-amounts, 2. in terms of the reg-date)than the ones valid for cars.
now the engine is fitted into a car, which needs to be treated, emissionwise, as a car. and here a conflict starts.
next difference than in UK:
the emission classification in germany (and most, maybe all(?) other EU countries) is done by the registration date and NOT by the engine-age.
so a car with a reg-date of e.g.2005 needs to fullfill the emission laws from 2005, consequtively only an engine which was built to such a spec will reach this emission class (euro5 in that case).
the emission classification of that engine (e.g. Ford Duratec) has been originally proved by comprehensive tests of the car manufacturer when it was fitted in the original car e.g. a ford mondeo.
now the engine sits in a different (kit)car with a different weight, a different exhaust system, mostly differnt intake system, plus a different ECU.
so all the tests from ford, which proved that this engine will fullfill euro5 are worthless now.
means the owner / builder of the kitcar has to bring its own prove.
the standard emission check during mot isnt a prove at all.
the car needs to be run through different test cycles, simulating certain driving conditions, on a rolling road in a certified emission lab. costs up to 3000 euro.
additionally the emissioin classifiaction e.g. euro5 also sets certain standards in terms of noise regulations, collecting tank fumes, pedastrian safety, EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) etc.
to come all around this the TÜV tester can complete the emission-passage in the testing form with "unknown", now the owner can apply at the regional government for an examption which permits the local registration office to register this car, even it does not fullfill the emission class necessary for the reg.date.
sounds very complicated and is very complex.
and we still have not solved the emission-problem with a motorbike engine fitted into a car!!
there are certain motorbike powered sevenish cars around on german roads...but most passed the test by luck or by the importer having a good "relations" to the local tüv-tester and /or the local registration office.
emission tests and classifications are bit different outside UK:
the "original" emissions of the (bike)engine have been apraised in a motorbike.
motorbike emmision classifications are completely different (1. in terms of emission-amounts, 2. in terms of the reg-date)than the ones valid for cars.
now the engine is fitted into a car, which needs to be treated, emissionwise, as a car. and here a conflict starts.
next difference than in UK:
the emission classification in germany (and most, maybe all(?) other EU countries) is done by the registration date and NOT by the engine-age.
so a car with a reg-date of e.g.2005 needs to fullfill the emission laws from 2005, consequtively only an engine which was built to such a spec will reach this emission class (euro5 in that case).
the emission classification of that engine (e.g. Ford Duratec) has been originally proved by comprehensive tests of the car manufacturer when it was fitted in the original car e.g. a ford mondeo.
now the engine sits in a different (kit)car with a different weight, a different exhaust system, mostly differnt intake system, plus a different ECU.
so all the tests from ford, which proved that this engine will fullfill euro5 are worthless now.
means the owner / builder of the kitcar has to bring its own prove.
the standard emission check during mot isnt a prove at all.
the car needs to be run through different test cycles, simulating certain driving conditions, on a rolling road in a certified emission lab. costs up to 3000 euro.
additionally the emissioin classifiaction e.g. euro5 also sets certain standards in terms of noise regulations, collecting tank fumes, pedastrian safety, EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) etc.
to come all around this the TÜV tester can complete the emission-passage in the testing form with "unknown", now the owner can apply at the regional government for an examption which permits the local registration office to register this car, even it does not fullfill the emission class necessary for the reg.date.
sounds very complicated and is very complex.
and we still have not solved the emission-problem with a motorbike engine fitted into a car!!
there are certain motorbike powered sevenish cars around on german roads...but most passed the test by luck or by the importer having a good "relations" to the local tüv-tester and /or the local registration office.
Edited by RochdaleGT on Tuesday 13th January 23:59
RochdaleGT, you obsess about the difference between a bike engine and a car engine, they are just engines, what you mean is the different emission regulations for a bike and a car.
Russ stated that a cat was fitted for UK IVA where for the most part cats are not required for bikes.
Most Euro country's are only interested in emissions therfore you can put a boat engine in a car as long as it meets the required emission standard.
Now are you realy saying the Germans would take a car as radical looking and a Furore and side step the regulations on a whim.
I really don't think so.
Back in your box son.
Russ stated that a cat was fitted for UK IVA where for the most part cats are not required for bikes.
Most Euro country's are only interested in emissions therfore you can put a boat engine in a car as long as it meets the required emission standard.
Now are you realy saying the Germans would take a car as radical looking and a Furore and side step the regulations on a whim.
I really don't think so.
Back in your box son.
PaulKemp said:
Most Euro country's are only interested in emissions therfore you can put a boat engine in a car as long as it meets the required emission standard.
thats not correct. see here the differences:
the problem hereby is, that a car needs to be treated, in terms of emissions, as a car according to its reg.-date
as the engine fitted is from a motorbike, the emission standards for this engine are different and can be only tested in a motorcyle, not a car.
to come around this, theoretically you need to get a individual emissions-approval certificate, done on a rolling road with this specific car. costs --> above.
some MOT testers don't take it so seriously and use the emission standards of the engine (in this case the motorbike standards), even the enigne is fitted to a car / the vehicle tested is a car.
doing it this way is a lame compromize.
Edited by RochdaleGT on Sunday 18th January 17:13
"doing it this way is a lame compromise" - so presumably you'd rather see no kitcars on the roads in Germany (or perhaps anywhere else?) at all!
I didn't post this for an argument!!! I thought it genuinely might be of interest to those trying to get kitcars registered in Germany!!
If we all allow governments to ride roughshod over us we will soon all be driving cars that look the same, perform the same & are all controlled with speed limiters set by a central computer - this may be your vision of the world ahead for us, & I have little doubt it would result in less accidents & deaths on the roads, but it certainly isn't mine. I'm a great believer in pushing the envelope whatever it may be concerning; & in free speech & free thinking.
However let's not digress from the point of trying to get cars registered in Germany, I can possibly put people in touch with the guy that organised it, but not if they just want to beat him about the head for (possibly) bending some (silly) rules!
I didn't post this for an argument!!! I thought it genuinely might be of interest to those trying to get kitcars registered in Germany!!
If we all allow governments to ride roughshod over us we will soon all be driving cars that look the same, perform the same & are all controlled with speed limiters set by a central computer - this may be your vision of the world ahead for us, & I have little doubt it would result in less accidents & deaths on the roads, but it certainly isn't mine. I'm a great believer in pushing the envelope whatever it may be concerning; & in free speech & free thinking.
However let's not digress from the point of trying to get cars registered in Germany, I can possibly put people in touch with the guy that organised it, but not if they just want to beat him about the head for (possibly) bending some (silly) rules!
Russ Bost said:
"doing it this way is a lame compromise" - so presumably you'd rather see no kitcars on the roads in Germany (or perhaps anywhere else?) at all!
I didn't post this for an argument!!! I thought it genuinely might be of interest to those trying to get kitcars registered in Germany!!
If we all allow governments to ride roughshod over us we will soon all be driving cars that look the same, perform the same & are all controlled with speed limiters set by a central computer - this may be your vision of the world ahead for us, & I have little doubt it would result in less accidents & deaths on the roads, but it certainly isn't mine. I'm a great believer in pushing the envelope whatever it may be concerning; & in free speech & free thinking.
However let's not digress from the point of trying to get cars registered in Germany, I can possibly put people in touch with the guy that organised it, but not if they just want to beat him about the head for (possibly) bending some (silly) rules!
I agree with you....I didn't post this for an argument!!! I thought it genuinely might be of interest to those trying to get kitcars registered in Germany!!
If we all allow governments to ride roughshod over us we will soon all be driving cars that look the same, perform the same & are all controlled with speed limiters set by a central computer - this may be your vision of the world ahead for us, & I have little doubt it would result in less accidents & deaths on the roads, but it certainly isn't mine. I'm a great believer in pushing the envelope whatever it may be concerning; & in free speech & free thinking.
However let's not digress from the point of trying to get cars registered in Germany, I can possibly put people in touch with the guy that organised it, but not if they just want to beat him about the head for (possibly) bending some (silly) rules!
Russ Bost said:
"doing it this way is a lame compromise" - so presumably you'd rather see no kitcars on the roads in Germany (or perhaps anywhere else?) at all
thats not true...its nice to see that your car has been re-registered in germany....
also i do not want to argue with you.
i only gave my opinion, about how it might have been registered and every reader here can make up his own mind now.
Having spent 16 years in the FRG (Germany) working and running a business associated with TUV, building ,selling and repairing sports-cars classics,dragsters and On-street specials (Hot-rods) I rather tend to concur with poster Rochdale GT that this {passing of TUV}has to be seen in the light of caution ! WHAT HAS NOT BEEN SAID?. A 30 scan of the car shows some glaring abnormalities, now i have NO wish to step on anyones toes but would not like to seen another person get their fingers burn't investing in a project than is likely to collapse and swallow a whole chunk of money, like I did!back in the 80's with several British models(kit-cars) For example this very primitive ( VW beetle based ) Porsche RSK by GP products LTD Isleworth. which did eventually pass TUV with great difficulty and at astronomical expense. I could write a book with all the problems,complications and additional costs that were incurred but only if it is of help to someone in problems !. Maybe I will just highlight a few of the more prominent items and see how we go. 
In order to make the power to weight ratio something similar to the original car it was intended to fit a " SCAT " 2.3litre VW high-perf flat 4cyl rated at 235 bhp @ f/wheel which would have made this a very exciting and competitive vehicle, However to meet TUV requirements it is necessary to obtain a letter of authority from Messrs VW fabric condoning this installation which was subsequently absolutely refused on the grounds that the engine was not of VW manufacture and so we had to revert to the correct application for that chassis No, thats when the next problem arrived because according to records we would be stuck with a single port 1200 cc motor. ( Sick-pig syndrome ) 
I have only quickly read through this and may be way off the mark however would I be correct in assuming a lot of the discussion is related to emissions ?
If so and if I understand correctly, it is stated its a "car" not a motorcycle and needs to pass the relevant "car" emission standards ?
If I'm following so far then is the tester simply only interested in what's coming out of the exhaust pipe not what's putting it in there ?
If its first registered in say 2010 as long as whatever it chucks out the exhaust pipe meets 2010 requirements the engines origin makes not a blind bit of difference ?
Or do I understand wrong ?
If so and if I understand correctly, it is stated its a "car" not a motorcycle and needs to pass the relevant "car" emission standards ?
If I'm following so far then is the tester simply only interested in what's coming out of the exhaust pipe not what's putting it in there ?
If its first registered in say 2010 as long as whatever it chucks out the exhaust pipe meets 2010 requirements the engines origin makes not a blind bit of difference ?
Or do I understand wrong ?
Unfortunately that vastly under estimates the TUV approval situation, emissions are only a very small part of the overall picture but could be considered the most complex and expensive to resolve owing to the goal-posts keep being moved and many of the requirements appear to be unobtainable and/or illogical, changing various factors ie :- comp/ratio, distributor advance, manifold design and others all require substantial dyno-testing and research to obtain acceptable drivability plus meeting the official A/R figures, then comes the collateral damage to ones wallet when changing components brings up the question of providing the required metalogy reports and official certified workshop drawings (In three planes IE--Isometric). If you have never been exposed to that type of engineering discipline I can assure you it don't cheap.We received a great deal of help from VW Wolfsburg FRG but that did not include making drawings available from their archives, these had to sourced and paid for on the open market but still had to receive accreditation from both VW & TUV before acceptance for testing. There are many more factors involved in obtaining a TUV certificate but before we go there it is necessary to know which type of test is was ? Was it a single vehicle approval for one time only or was it a Manufacturer/dealer for multiple/repeat vehicles ,there is a big difference in the way each type is implemented 
1441 said:
I have only quickly read through this and may be way off the mark however would I be correct in assuming a lot of the discussion is related to emissions ?
If so and if I understand correctly, it is stated its a "car" not a motorcycle and needs to pass the relevant "car" emission standards ?
If I'm following so far then is the tester simply only interested in what's coming out of the exhaust pipe not what's putting it in there ?
If its first registered in say 2010 as long as whatever it chucks out the exhaust pipe meets 2010 requirements the engines origin makes not a blind bit of difference ?
Or do I understand wrong ?
you need to read all the postings in detail:If so and if I understand correctly, it is stated its a "car" not a motorcycle and needs to pass the relevant "car" emission standards ?
If I'm following so far then is the tester simply only interested in what's coming out of the exhaust pipe not what's putting it in there ?
If its first registered in say 2010 as long as whatever it chucks out the exhaust pipe meets 2010 requirements the engines origin makes not a blind bit of difference ?
Or do I understand wrong ?
Emission standard is set due to the registration date.
a vehicle which looks like a car needs to be treated like a car in all ascpects: car=car emission standards
bike = bike standards
bike engine in car = car standards.
a bike engine has set and prooved its Emission standard in a bike which cannot be transfered to a car, especially as the emission classifications and standards are totally different from bike to car.
plus: its not about "whats comming out of the exhaust"...an emission standard like EURO5 also sets standards in terms of noise, EMC, OBD, certain safety aspects and so on.
this said, if you bring a prove from a rolling road session in a certified emissions labratory than you have cleared the first hurdle...but your wallet will be empty, even you need more money for additinal tests....
now guess why caterhams and westfield´s EURO-Models are so much more expensive than the UK models?
Edited by RochdaleGT on Saturday 7th February 22:12
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