if you had the option would you get carbon?
Discussion
just had this come through from a mate. he said that he can do some GT40 body parts in carbon if we have a mold (which I might
). this was done with someone elses mold, so is not representative of what mine will be but give you an idea.the question is, would it be worth getting say carbon front and rear clips, doors and sills for a GT40?
The roof spider is double skinned so there may not be as much benefit as it requires a certain thickness at the bond joint which is 90% of the part.
it will still have a gel coat outer, carbon just for strength and weight saving. Its roughly half the weight when in carbon. ie just guessing but if a glass body was 100kg, the carbon one will be 50kg.
what do you think? what would be an acceptable premium in the price for carbon over plain CSM?
trying to work out if its worth it.
Ryan
Carbon's funny stuff, very (VERY) easy to damage, very difficult to know you've damaged it - a light tap from a hammer will weaken the internal structure, but leave the outside faces perfect. Once damaged it absorbs water & doubles in weight, while strength goes down to 1/4. I would never use it as primary structure on a road car.
It's great for aircraft & F1 which operate in a very controlled environment & you've said you only want it for body panels which should be fine, but if it was me I'd not use it for anything like wheelarch liners because they WILL get chipped & end up heavier & harder to repair than GRP ones.
Other than that - go for it!
It's great for aircraft & F1 which operate in a very controlled environment & you've said you only want it for body panels which should be fine, but if it was me I'd not use it for anything like wheelarch liners because they WILL get chipped & end up heavier & harder to repair than GRP ones.
Other than that - go for it!
Fury1630 said:
Carbon's funny stuff, very (VERY) easy to damage, very difficult to know you've damaged it - a light tap from a hammer will weaken the internal structure, but leave the outside faces perfect. Once damaged it absorbs water & doubles in weight, while strength goes down to 1/4. I would never use it as primary structure on a road car.
It's great for aircraft & F1 which operate in a very controlled environment & you've said you only want it for body panels which should be fine, but if it was me I'd not use it for anything like wheelarch liners because they WILL get chipped & end up heavier & harder to repair than GRP ones.
Other than that - go for it!
Couldn't agree more... but... You can never have too much carbon fibre! It's great for aircraft & F1 which operate in a very controlled environment & you've said you only want it for body panels which should be fine, but if it was me I'd not use it for anything like wheelarch liners because they WILL get chipped & end up heavier & harder to repair than GRP ones.
Other than that - go for it!
So if the outside surface remains sealed it will be fine as moisture would not be able to get in?
should also say that this will be a road car first - track car second. So i will need to make some concessions to make it a good car on the Road. If it was going to be a track car, I would start with something that will deliver down force first.
I'm still waiting on the price to come back.
will make sure I'm sitting down when I open the email.....
should also say that this will be a road car first - track car second. So i will need to make some concessions to make it a good car on the Road. If it was going to be a track car, I would start with something that will deliver down force first.
I'm still waiting on the price to come back.
will make sure I'm sitting down when I open the email.....
I've made a complete carbon body for my Noble (made moulds then vac formed the parts)... my parts were a lot stronger than the GRP items so they only ended up only around half the weight of the GF body I replaced.
However if they are going to do it properly it won't be a 'pure' carbon part and should include other materials. For example my front clam is a mix of carbon, foam core and kevlar... a pure carbon part would have been a lot heavier OR much much weaker and highly liable to incur damage...
They MUST line the wheel arches in kevlar.
If they are Vac forming the parts then as a guide the 'materials' in a front clam would be aprox £6-800.. would take me 16hrs to lay up the material and then a further 8 hrs of releasing the part and cleaning the mould... I don't do this for a living its just me doing it in my garage for myself so I expect a pro to be faster than me
I saved around 40-50kgs on the car by making all the body in carbon, its all high cog weight as well
However if they are going to do it properly it won't be a 'pure' carbon part and should include other materials. For example my front clam is a mix of carbon, foam core and kevlar... a pure carbon part would have been a lot heavier OR much much weaker and highly liable to incur damage...
They MUST line the wheel arches in kevlar.
If they are Vac forming the parts then as a guide the 'materials' in a front clam would be aprox £6-800.. would take me 16hrs to lay up the material and then a further 8 hrs of releasing the part and cleaning the mould... I don't do this for a living its just me doing it in my garage for myself so I expect a pro to be faster than me
I saved around 40-50kgs on the car by making all the body in carbon, its all high cog weight as well
andygtt said:
I've made a complete carbon body for my Noble (made moulds then vac formed the parts)... my parts were a lot stronger than the GRP items so they only ended up only around half the weight of the GF body I replaced.
However if they are going to do it properly it won't be a 'pure' carbon part and should include other materials. For example my front clam is a mix of carbon, foam core and kevlar... a pure carbon part would have been a lot heavier OR much much weaker and highly liable to incur damage...
They MUST line the wheel arches in kevlar.
If they are Vac forming the parts then as a guide the 'materials' in a front clam would be aprox £6-800.. would take me 16hrs to lay up the material and then a further 8 hrs of releasing the part and cleaning the mould... I don't do this for a living its just me doing it in my garage for myself so I expect a pro to be faster than me
I saved around 40-50kgs on the car by making all the body in carbon, its all high cog weight as well
Thanks AndyHowever if they are going to do it properly it won't be a 'pure' carbon part and should include other materials. For example my front clam is a mix of carbon, foam core and kevlar... a pure carbon part would have been a lot heavier OR much much weaker and highly liable to incur damage...
They MUST line the wheel arches in kevlar.
If they are Vac forming the parts then as a guide the 'materials' in a front clam would be aprox £6-800.. would take me 16hrs to lay up the material and then a further 8 hrs of releasing the part and cleaning the mould... I don't do this for a living its just me doing it in my garage for myself so I expect a pro to be faster than me
I saved around 40-50kgs on the car by making all the body in carbon, its all high cog weight as well
price was 2.4 times the glass option for the entire body.
weight estimated is around what you have said, going from 100kg body weight down to 50kg body weight for the complete gt40 body.
layup was gelcoat 450g csm, 200g twill,core matt across the flat area at the top of the wheel arch then more 200g twill. Where does the Kevlar go Andy?
presume you would put it on the very top of the layup, ie last thing into the mold so that it is the first thing a rock hits after it get flicked up from the tire.
the white matt is the core matt in the glass layup, presume this is what they have put in the carbon one as well. Its a bit of a resin sponge.
they a still a few weeks out from molding mine, so can hold off for a bit and see how the one above goes. They should have it out on the track in a couple of weeks.
Ryan
Edited by ezakimak on Thursday 26th February 13:10
Edited by ezakimak on Thursday 26th February 13:15
I'm planning on making moulds of my racing car in the future, just because it's inevitable that I'd damage one or more of the panels at some point. Clearly I'd love to make it from carbon fibre and that's probably the end goal but firstly the moulds will be made from GRP and then I'll work on some aero mods for the car in GRP as it's cheaper to experiment.
When I do tackle it in CF then I'll start on simple parts like the top of the foot well and then the front wings.
For reference
When I do tackle it in CF then I'll start on simple parts like the top of the foot well and then the front wings.
For reference
Bit of Carbon/Titanium porn from an old project of ours.
When you talk about strength and weight saving by comparing fibre glass and carbon it's really stiffness that you are interested in. Carbon is many times stiffer than glass so the component will hold it's shape even though there is a lot less stuff in it. You can however apply some experience, different layup techniques and other materials to produce a considerably lighter GRP part without the expense of going for carbon.
When you talk about strength and weight saving by comparing fibre glass and carbon it's really stiffness that you are interested in. Carbon is many times stiffer than glass so the component will hold it's shape even though there is a lot less stuff in it. You can however apply some experience, different layup techniques and other materials to produce a considerably lighter GRP part without the expense of going for carbon.
autosportgpeng said:
Bit of Carbon/Titanium porn from an old project of ours.
When you talk about strength and weight saving by comparing fibre glass and carbon it's really stiffness that you are interested in. Carbon is many times stiffer than glass so the component will hold it's shape even though there is a lot less stuff in it. You can however apply some experience, different layup techniques and other materials to produce a considerably lighter GRP part without the expense of going for carbon.
Nice looking component.....When you talk about strength and weight saving by comparing fibre glass and carbon it's really stiffness that you are interested in. Carbon is many times stiffer than glass so the component will hold it's shape even though there is a lot less stuff in it. You can however apply some experience, different layup techniques and other materials to produce a considerably lighter GRP part without the expense of going for carbon.
Sorry for late reply... The kevlar goes as the last layer in the mould on the clam and thus the underside of the panel, I also have foam core around these areas to prevent star crazing in the body above wheel.
Sometimes I have put the Kevlar between the layers of carbon, this is were I am looking for crash protection i.e. doors, or were bolts go through which take load.
As said its really down to experience to build a part both stronger and lighter, knowing the places to beef the part up and were you can have extremely thin areas....
My entire tub weighs 16kgs and you can stand on the roof of it even when it was free standing i.e. not even on the car. It has 2 different types of foam core, 3 different weave of carbon as well as kevlar in places... layup varies hugely throughout the tub even though its a single piece.
Sometimes I have put the Kevlar between the layers of carbon, this is were I am looking for crash protection i.e. doors, or were bolts go through which take load.
As said its really down to experience to build a part both stronger and lighter, knowing the places to beef the part up and were you can have extremely thin areas....
My entire tub weighs 16kgs and you can stand on the roof of it even when it was free standing i.e. not even on the car. It has 2 different types of foam core, 3 different weave of carbon as well as kevlar in places... layup varies hugely throughout the tub even though its a single piece.
ezakimak said:
layup was gelcoat 450g csm, 200g twill,core matt across the flat area at the top of the wheel arch then more 200g twill. Where does the Kevlar go Andy?
presume you would put it on the very top of the layup, ie last thing into the mold so that it is the first thing a rock hits after it get flicked up from the tire.
You could quite easily go lighter than that by ditching the 450csm for a lighter carbon and replacing coremat with a closed cell foam based core such as PVC foam, 3d core or similar as they have a much lower resin uptake than coremat.presume you would put it on the very top of the layup, ie last thing into the mold so that it is the first thing a rock hits after it get flicked up from the tire.
Also using epoxy instead of polyester resin will help again.
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