0 to 60 times, kit car owner delusion??!

[FuryCossieSteve]

Why is it that almost every time I see a kit car for sale on ebay or PH I see ridiculous, unproven and most likely unattainable 0 to 60mph times quoted?

Seriously, do people really think their 180bhp (car engined) 7 style car can do 0 to 60 in 3.1 seconds??? I think even a 180bhp BEC would struggle?

I see one CEC on PH atm that quotes 3.4 secs with 200bhp and 180ftlbs and yet is another very well set up car, track proven and with a well accomplished track-experienced driver quoting a more sensible 3.5 secs with 50bhp more at 250bhp and 190ftlbs (and that I know is a very quick car, full of nice top line equipment to enable it to do that kind of time). A full 50bhp less (nowhere near the level of track equipment) and yet faster? I seriously doubt that!!

I once saw a guy selling a 7 type car on ebay quote 2.6 seconds for pities sake!! I'd love to see him do it! Even if he could get the whole (less than 230bhp) down that would be a road going car world record most likely!!! Or not far off. Here are some real world times figures from just recently, not sure if I can post a link, but here goes....... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/2716549/Gone-i...

My Cossie Fury (around 320bhp and about the same in torque I believe - must check!) must be around 1.5 seconds then???

Edited by FuryCossieSteve on Sunday 9th August 21:32

[Megaflow]

Because they're bell ends...

I had a Westfield with a proven 155bhp on Northampton Motorsports rollers, weighed ~560kg, and according tho the inbuilt acceleration timber in the digit ash, would do 0-60 in 4.6, being really brutal with it, you could probably drop that to 4.4/4.5, but there is no way on earth it was going any faster than that.

[stargazer30]

But more importantly, if they constantly obsess about 0-60 times they've missed the point anyway.

[FuryCossieSteve]

Megaflow said:

Because they're bell ends...

I had a Westfield with a proven 155bhp on Northampton Motorsports rollers, weighed ~560kg, and according tho the inbuilt acceleration timer in the digit ash, would do 0-60 in 4.6, being really brutal with it, you could probably drop that to 4.4/4.5, but there is no way on earth it was going any faster than that.

I'm actually quite impressed with a real world figure of 4.6secs at 277bhp/tonne tbh. It seems to me that you reach a point where to get it a worthwhile amount lower requires a huge increase in power and a lot of £££!

I saw a guy selling a properly sorted Cosworth Turbo Westie with 505bhp, launch control, flatshifter and all the kit, it was officially timed at 3.2secs. 1.4 secs quicker than your Westie but it took more than 3 times the power plus all sorts of expensive trick kit to do it!

Not as quick as all those on ebay with 200bhp who can do it faster of course!!

[FuryCossieSteve]

stargazer30 said:

But more importantly, if they constantly obsess about 0-60 times they've missed the point anyway.

Exactly!

[browse]

The twin engined Tiger Z100 does sub-3 second 0-60 on Fifth Gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phQfA5-DL1I

[FuryCossieSteve]

browse said:

The twin engined Tiger Z100 does sub-3 second 0-60 on Fifth Gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phQfA5-DL1I

Yes I believe someone got it down to 2.8 now? I recall seeing that Fifth Gear and Tiff broke the damn thing!! I don't think any of those times have been recognised by Guinness though have they?

Edited by FuryCossieSteve on Sunday 9th August 23:16

[AdamR172]

stargazer30 said:

But more importantly, if they constantly obsess about 0-60 times they've missed the point anyway.

I completely agree, but when some people are looking to buy a car to talk about in the pub, they want to see these sorts of figures...

[Megaflow]

FuryCossieSteve said:

I'm actually quite impressed with a real world figure of 4.6secs at 277bhp/tonne tbh. It seems to me that you reach a point where to get it a worthwhile amount lower requires a huge increase in power and a lot of £££!

I saw a guy selling a properly sorted Cosworth Turbo Westie with 505bhp, launch control, flatshifter and all the kit, it was officially timed at 3.2secs. 1.4 secs quicker than your Westie but it took more than 3 times the power plus all sorts of expensive trick kit to do it!

Not as quick as all those on ebay with 200bhp who can do it faster of course!!

I should add, that was on A048R. A normal tin top tyre would increase that considerably.

0-60 does miss the point somewhat, but it is always nice to know what they will do.

[mikeveal]

FuryCossieSteve said:

I saw a guy selling a properly sorted Cosworth Turbo Westie with 505bhp, launch control, flatshifter and all the kit, it was officially timed at 3.2secs. 1.4 secs quicker than your Westie but it took more than 3 times the power plus all sorts of expensive trick kit to do it!

Not as quick as all those on ebay with 200bhp who can do it faster of course!!

(Proper)Launch control reduces the available power to keep the wheels spinning with ~10% slip, since that's the point of peak traction. If you have enough power to keep the wheels spinning all the way to 60mph, adding more power won't decrease the acceleration time. So dependant on gearing and weight, it's perfectly possible for the 200Hp car to be quicker than the 505Hp car.

Theory says my car should be in the low 3s (150bhp, 350Kg, 60mph in 1st gear). In practice I don't drive well enough to accelerate hard in first, I just get a lot of wheel spin.

[Huff]

OP has it, there is a lot of nonsense (untested opinion) spouted on kit cars capabilities, esp in ads. Some of the numbers I've seen given for bike-engine minis and Fiats / Smarts are occasionally hilarious: as in physically unfeasible, never mind substantially quicker than what the same power in 250kg [/I]less[/I] of a Fury/7-alike will get close too.

Post above about optimum power is a good one too: big power tends to corrupt absolutely in a light car unless reigned-in, in which case: what's the point?

Personally - I'm not remotely interested in bashing my car that hard off the line. What keeps me driving it is the way it will scamper like a gecko around tight and twisty lanes, thoroughly engaging me all the while.

[300bhp/ton]

FuryCossieSteve said:

browse said:

The twin engined Tiger Z100 does sub-3 second 0-60 on Fifth Gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phQfA5-DL1I

Yes I believe someone got it down to 2.8 now? I recall seeing that Fifth Gear and Tiff broke the damn thing!! I don't think any of those times have been recognised by Guinness though have they?

Edited by FuryCossieSteve on Sunday 9th August 23:16

0-60mph is mostly about traction. Then power and time to change gear. This is why modern cars seem quicker. They have more tyre and more grip and very quick gearchanges.

Can't really comment on the ads you are seeing. But plenty of cars can crack very good 0-60mph times given the right circumstances.

Having enough grip to do something like this:


Means 0-60mph times will be radically lower than the same car on street tyres and on a tarmac runway.

[jeffw]

I did this the other day, Stowe circuit - Silverstone on cold tyres at the start of a sprint.



This is from the datalogger using GPS speed. Car is my Phoenix with 400BHP in 620Kg. Warm tyres would be a large difference as would traction control. Car has a Quaife Sequential. I have some electronics (flatshifter/traction control) which will also help. My next event is the Brighton Speed Trials so will be interesting to see if I can get into the 10sec 1/4 mile.
[

Edited by jeffw on Monday 10th August 16:03

[Huff]

Looking forward to that, Jeff; your car looked (and sounded!) the mutts last year, and ran well.

Which raises a really good response to the OP - have a look at Jeff's car to see what it takes to actually deliver the numbers posted (much less those talked-bout in pubs). The average overpowered kit won't get close, let alone a poor BEC conversion.

[jeffw]

I think that with the following

Warm tyres
flatshifter and launch control
drag strip

& no mechanical sensibilities and an endless clutch/driveshaft/transmission budget

I might be able to get into the very low 3 secs 0-60, under that would be hard. I believe the car would run 6 sec 0-100MPH and maybe 10sec 1/4 mile.

2 sec 0-60 would be very difficult.

[FuryCossieSteve]

Huff said:

Looking forward to that, Jeff; your car looked (and sounded!) the mutts last year, and ran well.

Which raises a really good response to the OP - have a look at Jeff's car to see what it takes to actually deliver the numbers posted (much less those talked-bout in pubs). The average overpowered kit won't get close, let alone a poor BEC conversion.

Newbie here, how do I get to look at jeffs car pls?

[FuryCossieSteve]

jeffw said:

I did this the other day, Stowe circuit - Silverstone on cold tyres at the start of a sprint.



This is from the datalogger using GPS speed. Car is my Phoenix with 400BHP in 620Kg. Warm tyres would be a large difference as would traction control. Car has a Quaife Sequential. I have some electronics (flatshifter/traction control) which will also help. My next event is the Brighton Speed Trials so will be interesting to see if I can get into the 10sec 1/4 mile.
[

Edited by jeffw on Monday 10th August 16:03

Impressive jeff. I can't see my 320/330bhp Cossie getting near that tbh but now my new R888s have arrived I may give it a try sometime. Personally in this day and age of fast kits and track days I think the 0 to 60 time has less relevance and should be usurped by the 0 to 100mph time!! More relevant today in the real world, as is the standing 1/4 mile time

[Olivera]

mikeveal said:

Theory says my car should be in the low 3s (150bhp, 350Kg, 60mph in 1st gear). In practice I don't drive well enough to accelerate hard in first, I just get a lot of wheel spin.

Low 3s? That's less than most bikes and you have double the weight?

[FuryCossieSteve]

Olivera said:

Low 3s? That's less than most bikes and you have double the weight?

Dunno about double the weight (A 2008~ Hayabusa is 265+kg wet weight, with 197bhp, power to weight 743/tonne!) but what I'd like to know is what car do you have that is 350kg?? Is it an Atom maybe? I know you said MOST bikes Olivera btw!

Not saying this applies to you mikeveal but that is another area I find kit owners get very wrong, the weight of their cars. It all seems to be in an attempt to kid themselves on their power to weight ratio it seems to me.

I've seen my car quoted at various times as either 320 or 330bhp and from 650 to 670kg. Well that varies the PTW ratio from 477bhp/tonne to 507/tonne. Methinks someone has been keen to break the magic 500 maybe? Later this year I will get both figures accurately done and put that one to bed for good! (in cold weather of course so I get a better bhp - it's a turbo!! hahahahaha!!)

[FuryCossieSteve]

jeffw said:

I think that with the following

Warm tyres
flatshifter and launch control
drag strip

& no mechanical sensibilities and an endless clutch/driveshaft/transmission budget

I might be able to get into the very low 3 secs 0-60, under that would be hard. I believe the car would run 6 sec 0-100MPH and maybe 10sec 1/4 mile.

2 sec 0-60 would be very difficult.

Can't fault your positive attitude there jeff but people spend ££tens of thousands to knock off tenths of a second, knocking off the amounts you are hoping for would be a miracle tbh. Taking 1.17 seconds off any 0 to 100 time is asking a LOT! You certainly have a very, very fast little car there though dude!

Let us know how you get on via this thread would you please??