BEC to CEC

[T0MMY]

I've been toying with the idea of swapping my R1 engined MNR Vortx for something car engined and perhaps with a windscreen and weather gear as these days I seem to do a lot more road than track miles.

Just wondering what sort of level of car engine I'd need to retain most of the speed and drama of my BEC. My budget would be less than £8k for a second hand, built car so I'm pretty limited...how would something like a Zetec powered 7 style CEC compare to an R1 engined BEC? What's a realistic power output for a tuned 2l Zetec and is that the best engine option in my price range?

[ugg10]

Zetec stick with tbs or bike carbs seems to be around 165hp, with head work and cams 185hp, st170 will give a bit more, possibly 200hp with work.

This look a bit if a bargain, lot of budget left for tbs, head work, lsd etc.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid...

Closest to a bike engine woukd be a s2000 but that would bust the budget.

Duratch woukd again be a step up from the zetec but again finding a nice on at your budget may be a stretch.

If I had a dream car it would be a raw/sylva striker with a zetec SE with ss4 cam, tbs, arp rod bolts and HD valve springs, thus would be very light, 180hp from 1.6l and spin up to over 8k. Striker with a 20v age engine would be worth a look and probably in budget.

Thus woukd need a few bits adding and iva but gives you an idea http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raw-Striker-Track-Day-Ca...


Or go for a fury/phoenix


Hope thus helps.

Edited by ugg10 on Saturday 29th August 12:36

Edited by ugg10 on Saturday 29th August 12:42

[T0MMY]

I do prefer the idea of a smaller, lighter, revvier engine so a Zetec SE sounds good. My dad had a 2.0 zetec Mondeo and the engine was horribly unwilling to rev, but was obviously tuned for low down torque so I probably shouldn't let that put me off! I think I really need to try to bag some passenger laps at trackdays though to see how CECs compare.

[AW111]

T0MMY said:

I do prefer the idea of a smaller, lighter, revvier engine so a Zetec SE sounds good. My dad had a 2.0 zetec Mondeo and the engine was horribly unwilling to rev, but was obviously tuned for low down torque so I probably shouldn't let that put me off! I think I really need to try to bag some passenger laps at trackdays though to see how CECs compare.

I don't know how easy they are to get in the UK, but I will add a vote for the Toyota 4age.
It's ony 1.6 l, but the cooking models rev to 7,500 for about 135 hp, the supercharged ones have the same redline but 150+ hp, and the 20v (blacktop) has 160 hp @ 7800 rpm, and redlines @ 8,300.
All stock figures.

There is a bit of fiddling to convert the later 4age's to fit in a RWD, because they moved the distributor to the back of the head, but it's pretty straightforward.

I will admit bias : I fitted the 20v to my mk1 mr2 (970 kg), and love it : it would be a hoot in something several hundred kg lighter.

[AdiT]

Kind of depends which version (power) R1 you have. If it's an early carb motor then 180bhp car engine might match it for bhp/kg. If it's an '04 onward then you're going to need circa 240-250 to match it on acceleration. It'll still not stop, corner or sound as well though. On the plus side... you'll be able to go backwards.

[T0MMY]

It's a 5PW injection one with power commander but no idea what power it's actually putting out. It also has a Quaife reverse box so I can go backwards...in fact I could go backwards at over 100mph

I've done a bit of research and the consensus seems to be I'd need somewhere from 180-200bhp in a CEC to give the same performance which is achievable from various engines in my budget. Given how few cars are on the market though I'd probably be limited by what I could find and I'd be happy with either a zetec, 4age or Vauxhall Redtop.

Having been getting frustrated at trying and failing to book a dry trackday over the last couple of weeks though I'm starting to wonder if something watertight like an Elise or VX220 might be a better option Big reduction in speed but presumably not far off handling wise? Anyone had both an Elise and a good kitcar to compare?

[van cleef]

I sold my blade powered Toniq R last October due to fancying something a little more practical, plus I wanted something a bit more reliable after a long string of problems with the Toniq.

I ended up buying a 111s s2 Elise with a hard top, even though I adore the Elise it's just not quite quick enough compared to the kitcar. I do miss the bombardment on the senses with the BEC.

At some point I do see myself going back to a BEC or if I wasn't such a badge snob, I'd buy a VX220 turbo.

[AdamR172]

I've just done this, but the other way round - a ~250bhp 590kg Westfield (geared to about 160mph) to a ~155bhp 500kg R1 Fisher Fury (geared to 122mph). The Westfield is marginally quicker in a straight line due to the torque, but the 'drama' is increased with the BEC.

Honestly, you'll struggle to match the sensations of your MNR with an £8k CEC.

Wife has an S2 Elise - it's boring and handles like turd compared to both of the above.

Where are you located Tommy? Just wondering if anyone could give you a spin out in a CEC to help make your mind up - I would certainly be willing to do so.

[T0MMY]

AdamR172 said:

I've just done this, but the other way round - a ~250bhp 590kg Westfield (geared to about 160mph) to a ~155bhp 500kg R1 Fisher Fury (geared to 122mph). The Westfield is marginally quicker in a straight line due to the torque, but the 'drama' is increased with the BEC.

Honestly, you'll struggle to match the sensations of your MNR with an £8k CEC.

Wife has an S2 Elise - it's boring and handles like turd compared to both of the above.

Where are you located Tommy? Just wondering if anyone could give you a spin out in a CEC to help make your mind up - I would certainly be willing to do so.

I'm in Peterborough but I'm actually heading up to Cadwell tomorrow for a trackday so I'm sure there'll be a few other kitcars there I can beg a ride in. Just praying the rain holds off until late afternoon as it's predicted to.

Surprised to hear the Elise doesn't impress in the handling department. I guess they're carrying a lot more weight and concession to all round road use in the geometry etc.

I would struggle to move away from kitcars as they're fantastic but it would be nice to have something I could use all year round. I do realise that there is literally no road legal car of any type I could get for £8k that is more exciting than a BEC though!

[Furyblade_Lee]

Only comparison I can give is my 140bhp R1 Phoenix v my mates Caterham Superlight R with 210bhp. His is quicker, maybe 2 seconds every minute around a track, which is a fair bit. However, he had a couple or grands worth of Nitron Suspension and brand new tyres around Zolder. Pound for pound, in same in the same chassis you would need 50% more car engined power to make the swap worthwhile. But it's only a guess!!

If if ever went car engined id fancy an 1800cc MX5 drivetrain with supercharger ( not turbo ) for a torquey bomb proof 200bhp, or an S2000 for a screaming bombproof 240bhp! And supercharging that....

[ugg10]

For road use imo 600kg, 175hp and 150+ ftlb is around the sweet spot, add decent anchors, tyres, maybe an lsd and a close ratio box and get it setup geometry wise and you can't go wrong. With this you can use pretty much all of the performance without ending up facing the wrong way at every corner. Track us a different matter. But then I have never experienced a bec.

[T0MMY]

There was a guy at Cadwell today with a GBS Zero running something close to 400bhp (supercharged S2000 engine) which should suffice! Unfortunately it broke down on the sighting laps so I never got to see it fly past.

There were a number of CECs there (R300, R500 and 3 or 4 others that I didn't identify) but I failed to bag any passenger laps as I was having too much fun driving my own car I was lapping a bit quicker than all of them I think but just through corner speed, didn't really get any drags along the straights to compare them for acceleration. I assume the R300 would have been the closest match.

[ugg10]

Have a search for jeffw on locostbuilders and YouTube to see what a 400hp supercharged zetec with a sequential box in a sylva phoenix can do. The videos of him at both goodwod and the Brighton speed trials (where he beat the works Caterham 620r) are brilliant.

[jeffw]

I did a trackday last year with a R1 engined Striker. He was better under braking due to the reduced weight and the sequential box but I still caught and past him

His view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLn1s4_G-c

Mine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LDEf6TGyo

Gives you an idea of the strengths and weakness, Llandow certainly suits the BEC....I've since change to a sequential box and it goes like this now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24DaZoD1b6c

[jeffw]

ugg10 said:

Have a search for jeffw on locostbuilders and YouTube to see what a 400hp supercharged zetec with a sequential box in a sylva phoenix can do. The videos of him at both goodwod and the Brighton speed trials (where he beat the works Caterham 620r) are brilliant.

You are very kind. Speed Trials last year was with a H pattern synchro box...we will see what a sequential does on Saturday at the 2015 version of the Brighton Speed Trials

[ugg10]

Jeff, looking forward to seeing how you do, my mate has a duratec elise on roller barrels and was hoping to race but has got mechanicals so will not be there. Unfortunately cannot be there but all the best.

Got to say that if I were in the op's position with an 8k budget I would be looking at a closed body fury or pheonix. The chassis is still the best around and the body gives a noticeable advantage over 70mph in terms of drag, the aero screens work pretty well too and if you want a full screen the curved ones are again much better for drag and buffett.

Edited by ugg10 on Thursday 3rd September 22:01

This looks like a good spec, may be a few notes on the expensive side and a slightly dodgy description "special" axle and gearbox, I guess it could be a lsd and long first type 9.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/racing-car-track-day-Kit...

Edited by ugg10 on Thursday 3rd September 22:07

[jeffw]

That advert is terrible...can't even spell professional !

[T0MMY]

ugg10 said:

Got to say that if I were in the op's position with an 8k budget I would be looking at a closed body fury or pheonix. The chassis is still the best around and the body gives a noticeable advantage over 70mph in terms of drag, the aero screens work pretty well too and if you want a full screen the curved ones are again much better for drag and buffett.

I was actually looking for a Fury when this MNR popped up as too much of a bargain to turn down. Quite like the look of them and the better aerodynamics would be good on trackdays.

With a low powered 7-style BEC, in a way you really drop down a tier in straight line performance when on track. On the road where I've had the odd, ahem, good natured acceleration comparisons with fellow enthusiasts, it'll keep up with very fast cars as the speeds are actually pretty low and it's all about power to weight. On track where the speeds are much higher the lack of power really tells and at times it feels frustratingly slow. So entering an NSL from a 30 limit the car feels ballistic and you're in the big boys group with M3s and 911s but on track coming off an 80mph corner it feels wheezy and you'd struggle to gain on a typical modern 1.4 tonne 250bhp hot hatch.

Not that this bothers me that much as trackdays are about corners and kitcars are just sublime in that area but it does put me off doing very fast tracks where the car would feel totally flat. That said, my R1 engine is desperately in need of mapping so maybe it's down on power?

Edited by T0MMY on Friday 4th September 18:05