Donors for a mid-engine one-off

[AW111]

I am (again) tinkering with ideas for a one-off mid engined car.
The basic premise is to use a FWD engine / trans, as done by FIAT, Lotus, Toyota etc.

So :
What common FWD cars came with wishbone front suspension? I know some Hondas did.
What common FWD cars had a longitudinal crankshaft?

I am in Australia, so would prefer Japanese / Ford / GM to VAG, both for affordability and availability.

Any suggestions?

[annodomini2]

You're basically looking at VAG or some older renaults if you want a transaxle setup.

Most of the VAG are Multi-link rather than wishbone.

[AW111]

It doesn't have to be transaxle; most small middies just use a transverse engine & box with a strut type suspension, but I am looking at alternatives : strut top mounts need to be strong, and reletively high up.

One possibility is to make a de Dion rear suspension : the geometry is easier to get right, and the hard points are easier to work into the chassis.

[Auntieroll]

Alfa 147/156 have front wishbone suspension, good range of engines from 1.6 4pot to 3.2 V6, flappy paddle gearbox if you are feeling brave!

[AW111]

Auntieroll said:

Alfa 147/156 have front wishbone suspension, good range of engines from 1.6 4pot to 3.2 V6, flappy paddle gearbox if you are feeling brave!

Interesting.

The flappy paddle box avoids having to reverse the gear linkage, which would make life easier. If it has a FBW throttle, that's another linkage I don't have to make.

[Corpulent Tosser]

Have you considered a bike engine ?

Lots of single seaters/sports libre cars use them, light weight, built in six speed sequential gearbox.

[AW111]

Corpulent Tosser said:

Have you considered a bike engine ?

Lots of single seaters/sports libre cars use them, light weight, built in six speed sequential gearbox.

I have, but a bike engine brings its own set of issues, including no reverse gear, and more work to get drive from the box to the wheels. Not insurmountable by any means, but non-trivial.

[Mistrale]

Why the insistence with double wishbone? If you must, I suppose, then MGF is the obvious.

However, why not copy lotus and use the much more common Chapman Strut i.e. the ubiquitous Macpherson!!!

See what I did: www.mistral.blogspot.com !

[AW111]

Mistrale said:

Why the insistence with double wishbone? If you must, I suppose, then MGF is the obvious.

However, why not copy lotus and use the much more common Chapman Strut i.e. the ubiquitous Macpherson!!!

See what I did: www.mistral.blogspot.com !

I am not insisting on wishbones, just exploring the options.
I have an early MR2 with struts, and they are the easy option, with literally dozens of potential donors - I was contemplating the wishbone alternative, and wondered what is out there that I could use.

ps The uprights are the most heavily and complexly loaded part of the suspension, and are about the only part I wouldn't consider designing myself.

Realistically, this will probably never get past the design stage (again), but designing it beats watching the idiot box, or arguing with strangers on the internet

[Frankthered]

AW111 said:

Auntieroll said:

Alfa 147/156 have front wishbone suspension, good range of engines from 1.6 4pot to 3.2 V6, flappy paddle gearbox if you are feeling brave!

Interesting.

The flappy paddle box avoids having to reverse the gear linkage, which would make life easier. If it has a FBW throttle, that's another linkage I don't have to make.

The 147 does have a DBW throttle. (Never got mine to fly!! It was only a 1.6.) Not sure about going Selespeed though ...

If you're looking for double wishbone suspension, have a look at Honda. I believe older Civics and Accords fit the bill.

[kambites]

AW111 said:

What common FWD cars had a longitudinal crankshaft?

Surely you want a transverse crank-shaft if you're going transverse engined like an Elise/MR2?

I'm not sure why the requirement for double wish-bones either; are you planning on taking the suspension from the donor too or is this for the front suspension?

[AW111]

kambites said:

Surely you want a transverse crank-shaft if you're going transverse engined like an Elise/MR2?

I'm not sure why the requirement for double wish-bones either; are you planning on taking the suspension from the donor too or is this for the front suspension?

Dropping a FWD drivertain in the rear, whether the donor is transverse or longitudinal it will be the same in the recipient. IIRC the Hawk Stratos replica has a longitudinal Alfa drivetrain.

Longutudinal vs transverse, wishbone vs strut : these decisions have a huge impact on the basic chassis layout.
To be honest, I will probably go the easy route (transverse with struts), but.....that's what almost everyone does (for good reasons of course), and Lotus have already done that better than I ever could


re wishbones : I don't want the whole suspension, just the uprights, as mentioned above.

[JontyR]

How about a Porsche Boxster?

Gives you everything you could need including brakes etc.

[Corpulent Tosser]

AW111 said:

Corpulent Tosser said:

Have you considered a bike engine ?

Lots of single seaters/sports libre cars use them, light weight, built in six speed sequential gearbox.

I have, but a bike engine brings its own set of issues, including no reverse gear, and more work to get drive from the box to the wheels. Not insurmountable by any means, but non-trivial.

Electric reverse is easily incorporated, it worked well on my Fury, a chain drive to a modified differential is also relatively easy, I know someone who manufactures these differentials, well modifies existing differentials to chain drive including making up mounting plates, with concentric tensioners. He exports them all over the world, primarily for race car applications.

[dom9]

JontyR said:

How about a Porsche Boxster?

Gives you everything you could need including brakes etc.

Early Boxsters are cheap now... I am surprised they're not getting used more as donors.

Squashing Porsche suspension, brakes, engine and 'box under an RS200 would be awesome.

Does the Mazda RX8 use wishbones all round? Had a feeling it did.

Following this with interest!

[AW111]

Corpulent Tosser said:

Electric reverse is easily incorporated, it worked well on my Fury, a chain drive to a modified differential is also relatively easy, I know someone who manufactures these differentials, well modifies existing differentials to chain drive including making up mounting plates, with concentric tensioners. He exports them all over the world, primarily for race car applications.

This may be a silly question, but the fury is front engined, with the crank running longitudinally, right?

For a bike engine in my application, what I would need would be a modified diff where the crownwheel is chain driven rather than turned by a pinion : eg I really only need the spider gear set.
Or a shaft drive with a really short drive shaft to a conventional diff, but the drivetrain package starts getting longer than ideal.


Does your mate have a website?



Thanks for all the replies so far : so many options

I am off to go rallying this weekend, but next weekend I think I will go stroll around the wreckers and lift a few Honda bonnets.

[AdamR172]

I've been through the same as you - the weight saving (14kg on the diff alone, never mind the prop vs chain), simplicity and hugely reduced drivetrain losses (down from 20-25% to 10-12%) led me down the chain-drive bike-engined route: http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2...

Had an R1 Fisher Fury before this, having no reverse didn't bother me after I 'made that mistake' once, it was enough to make me remember!

Edited by AdamR172 on Wednesday 25th November 12:05

Edited by AdamR172 on Wednesday 25th November 12:06

[Steve_D]

AdamR172 said:

.....Had an R1 Fisher Fury before this, having no reverse didn't bother me after I 'made that mistake' once, it was enough to make me remember!.....

As this car would end up down the IVA route then reverse is a requirement.

Steve

[AW111]

Steve_D said:

As this car would end up down the IVA route then reverse is a requirement.

Steve

Just to clarify : I am in Aus, so different rules apply, but yes, reverse is one of the mandatory requirements.
Car will also have to be tested for torsional stiffness and bump steer, among other things.

[Corpulent Tosser]

AW111 said:

This may be a silly question, but the fury is front engined, with the crank running longitudinally, right?

For a bike engine in my application, what I would need would be a modified diff where the crownwheel is chain driven rather than turned by a pinion : eg I really only need the spider gear set.
Or a shaft drive with a really short drive shaft to a conventional diff, but the drivetrain package starts getting longer than ideal.


Does your mate have a website?



Thanks for all the replies so far : so many options

I am off to go rallying this weekend, but next weekend I think I will go stroll around the wreckers and lift a few Honda bonnets.

My Fury had electric reverse, but it was shaft drive to a 'regular' diff, the reverse was a starter motor driving a gear bolted to the input shaft on the diff.
The website is www.westgarage.co.uk
Good luck with the project.