Big Bhp or Feel for Seven style kit car?
Discussion
It's an interesting argument, but the joy of kit cars is that the choices are there for us all to take 
I was on a car limits fun day with Jeff (who is far too modest about his driving abilities) in October. He was at the top end of the performance scale of cars there with sticky tyres and 400nhp, and I was at the bottom with my Caterham S3 with Uniroyal rain experts and 120bhp. I wouldn't want to own his car and I'm sure he wouldn't want mine, but we both had a lot of fun during the day.
Tongue in cheek, I could claim I had more fun though, because i took longer to do each run and consequently had more track time for my money
Duncan
I was on a car limits fun day with Jeff (who is far too modest about his driving abilities) in October. He was at the top end of the performance scale of cars there with sticky tyres and 400nhp, and I was at the bottom with my Caterham S3 with Uniroyal rain experts and 120bhp. I wouldn't want to own his car and I'm sure he wouldn't want mine, but we both had a lot of fun during the day.
Tongue in cheek, I could claim I had more fun though, because i took longer to do each run and consequently had more track time for my money
Duncan
Duncan - you are right, of course! The OP was asking 'big power or feel?' though, hence the discussion
Jeff - I agree with most of what you are saying, certainly, but I've found differently for some of the points. In the 'high powered kit vs low powered kit' comparison, having more power immediately makes a car significantly faster round a lap all other things being equal. I'm also fairly certain a lighter car will always corner more quickly than a heavier one, given the same caveat.
The videos of Llandow are interesting, but I think it's tricky to draw meaningful comparisons because the drivers are different. The same driver in the two different cars though would be really interesting to see!
I had a quick look through your other videos and one of them sort of proves one of the points I was making earlier. This isn't a personal thing at all, I know you are a top chap and get some very good results, just it's the first direct example I found!
Your video from Blyton sprint in July: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhvzmfsaxco - looks like a ~68 second run if the last corner was clean - a quick time. With 400bhp, plenty of torque from the blower and 620kg, the car is mega fast on the straights and completely mullers the other two videos below on every straight, taking 2s out of the MX-5 (110bhp, 800kg) and 0.5s out of the Westfield (250bhp, 590kg) just from the exit of Wiggler to the turn in board for Bishops (a blast that takes under 6s in your car)! Multiply this by the 6 straights per lap that are a similar length, and you're immediately 3s up on the Westy and 12 up on the MX-5.
Yet the Westy gets round in about 65.5s (cut and splice a lap together, due to it being a double lapper with a slightly different layout) and the MX-5 on Chinese road tyres does about 77s (calculated sprint layout equivalent as it's a rolling lap).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLvyMxUNxuI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMpH9A83uFg
So where does the time go?
Well, the MX-5 and Westfield are 0.6 and 0.8s quicker respectively from the first braking marker to the end of the exit kerb on the run through the Wiggler (takes 6s in your video). So, they must be carrying more speed through the corner, and this obviously also helps to claw back the straight line speed difference a bit, but it is the corners where these cars (especially the Westy) are gaining the time.
So in a roundabout way that brings me back to an earlier point; slower cars will - in my opinion - allow you to learn to drive faster in the bits of the lap that are difficult to master (ie. everything apart from straight lines). I learned in MX-5s and transferring that to a 'faster' car means I can use more of the performance. I am almost certain that every 'big power' kit car owner (or big bhp/ton car in general) I've ever come across would be quicker in their own vehicle following some track time (with decent training) in something like an MX-5. In fact, that's an invitation for you Jeff - if you'd like me to give you a shout when I'm taking the MX-5 to a track a bit nearer you (I'm up in Preston), you are welcome to come along and drive the wheels off it at no charge, and I guarantee you'll pedal the Phenix faster afterwards or your money back (haha).
Christ that was a long post. Answer to topic: Feel.
Jeff - I agree with most of what you are saying, certainly, but I've found differently for some of the points. In the 'high powered kit vs low powered kit' comparison, having more power immediately makes a car significantly faster round a lap all other things being equal. I'm also fairly certain a lighter car will always corner more quickly than a heavier one, given the same caveat.
The videos of Llandow are interesting, but I think it's tricky to draw meaningful comparisons because the drivers are different. The same driver in the two different cars though would be really interesting to see!
I had a quick look through your other videos and one of them sort of proves one of the points I was making earlier. This isn't a personal thing at all, I know you are a top chap and get some very good results, just it's the first direct example I found!
Your video from Blyton sprint in July: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhvzmfsaxco - looks like a ~68 second run if the last corner was clean - a quick time. With 400bhp, plenty of torque from the blower and 620kg, the car is mega fast on the straights and completely mullers the other two videos below on every straight, taking 2s out of the MX-5 (110bhp, 800kg) and 0.5s out of the Westfield (250bhp, 590kg) just from the exit of Wiggler to the turn in board for Bishops (a blast that takes under 6s in your car)! Multiply this by the 6 straights per lap that are a similar length, and you're immediately 3s up on the Westy and 12 up on the MX-5.
Yet the Westy gets round in about 65.5s (cut and splice a lap together, due to it being a double lapper with a slightly different layout) and the MX-5 on Chinese road tyres does about 77s (calculated sprint layout equivalent as it's a rolling lap).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLvyMxUNxuI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMpH9A83uFg
So where does the time go?
Well, the MX-5 and Westfield are 0.6 and 0.8s quicker respectively from the first braking marker to the end of the exit kerb on the run through the Wiggler (takes 6s in your video). So, they must be carrying more speed through the corner, and this obviously also helps to claw back the straight line speed difference a bit, but it is the corners where these cars (especially the Westy) are gaining the time.
So in a roundabout way that brings me back to an earlier point; slower cars will - in my opinion - allow you to learn to drive faster in the bits of the lap that are difficult to master (ie. everything apart from straight lines). I learned in MX-5s and transferring that to a 'faster' car means I can use more of the performance. I am almost certain that every 'big power' kit car owner (or big bhp/ton car in general) I've ever come across would be quicker in their own vehicle following some track time (with decent training) in something like an MX-5. In fact, that's an invitation for you Jeff - if you'd like me to give you a shout when I'm taking the MX-5 to a track a bit nearer you (I'm up in Preston), you are welcome to come along and drive the wheels off it at no charge, and I guarantee you'll pedal the Phenix faster afterwards or your money back (haha).
Christ that was a long post. Answer to topic: Feel.
I think people need to step back and take stock. Isn't this testament to the whole point of being able to make a kit car what YOU want? Aren't we living in a great time when you can have a Caterham with 120bhp or 320bhp? This is what we should be celebrating rather than arguing what's the best .
Good times.
Good times.
I think it's become another BEC or CEC type thread
It's really down to the individual
For me it's about a light well balanced car that I feel confidant in
That said as you learn the car there is always an urge for more grunt
I suppose another question would be big power right away or build that up as you build your skills
It's really down to the individual
For me it's about a light well balanced car that I feel confidant in
That said as you learn the car there is always an urge for more grunt
I suppose another question would be big power right away or build that up as you build your skills
8 years now with my 165bhp/450Kg Fisher Fury R1 and I still don't think it needs more power on UK roads. I've yet to drive another car that's more fun too. On UK roads I'm rarely using 100% throttle and when I do its only for a few seconds at a time.
It's the light-weight that makes these car great in my view and you wear them rather it than sit in them. This gives you a better connection with the car and a better feel for the road. You also have much more confidence that it will stop and go around those corners. In a very light car it's just easier to drive up to its limits too.
To me its like the difference between trying to throw a mountain bike around and a motorbike.
Rob
It's the light-weight that makes these car great in my view and you wear them rather it than sit in them. This gives you a better connection with the car and a better feel for the road. You also have much more confidence that it will stop and go around those corners. In a very light car it's just easier to drive up to its limits too.
To me its like the difference between trying to throw a mountain bike around and a motorbike.
Rob
How did this become an argument of power/feel, right/wrong? The OP asked for opinion, my opinion was and is that huge power is great on the track and unnecessary even dangerous on the road, Looking through most of the thread that appears to be what broadly everyone else is saying
The argument then appears to have become which is quicker on the track? that wasn't the question, but you rarely see a low power car beat a high power car with good set up.
I have a mate who can beat RSR 911's in his cross flow S2 Lotus 7, that always looks like the supremacy of lightness over brute force, but its 1800cc, revs to 9,500 the cost for the engine build is astronomical and it gets stripped and rebuilt every 150KM with 200+BHP all carbon and weighs 440KG it is really an outstanding combination of BHP to feel, and in a perfect world cost no limit combining both is the way to go, that 7 is pretty much unbeatable by any thing.
The argument then appears to have become which is quicker on the track? that wasn't the question, but you rarely see a low power car beat a high power car with good set up.
I have a mate who can beat RSR 911's in his cross flow S2 Lotus 7, that always looks like the supremacy of lightness over brute force, but its 1800cc, revs to 9,500 the cost for the engine build is astronomical and it gets stripped and rebuilt every 150KM with 200+BHP all carbon and weighs 440KG it is really an outstanding combination of BHP to feel, and in a perfect world cost no limit combining both is the way to go, that 7 is pretty much unbeatable by any thing.
I think for a road car big power should NEVER be at the expense of drivability.... the low power 'feel' voters are saying they are easier to drive simply as they have less power and thus easier or less dangerous to control etc etc... but big power SHOULD be exactly the same, you just feel how much throttle to use.
On wet roads with cold track day tyres I can push my car hard without it getting silly... in fact I could push my car way harder in the wet on the road with 888's than I can my new FJCW mini with its 'road' mitchelin tyres and TC and under 1/3 the power. The mini wheelspins all over the place as you would expect but is harder to 'feed' the power, but my 700hp/t beast is easier to feel on the throttle. (with cars are turbocharged). Ok my cars not a 7 type, but its not got any aids and is a drivers car in the same way... if anything a 7 type should be easier to feel than mine.
Whilst I have done quite a few track days I have actually not done a huge number of laps so I still consider myself a novice, tuition would make me faster lol.
On wet roads with cold track day tyres I can push my car hard without it getting silly... in fact I could push my car way harder in the wet on the road with 888's than I can my new FJCW mini with its 'road' mitchelin tyres and TC and under 1/3 the power. The mini wheelspins all over the place as you would expect but is harder to 'feed' the power, but my 700hp/t beast is easier to feel on the throttle. (with cars are turbocharged). Ok my cars not a 7 type, but its not got any aids and is a drivers car in the same way... if anything a 7 type should be easier to feel than mine.
Whilst I have done quite a few track days I have actually not done a huge number of laps so I still consider myself a novice, tuition would make me faster lol.
A good car would be the Striker with the Supercharged MX5 motor. 550kg, 200 bhp and flat torque curve? Yes please!
Just be careful using a turbo and big power in a 7. Been in a few, warp factor fast but just remember the only thing keeping you on the black stuff is your talent, with no driving aids and a boost spike it added a dimension I don't miss in mine.
I dont honestly think that, WITHOUT aero, low ride height and slicks there is huge amount of difference betwwen 400bhp per tonne and 600 per tonne. You can only use what you can deploy, just be careful you don't create a monster!!!!
Just be careful using a turbo and big power in a 7. Been in a few, warp factor fast but just remember the only thing keeping you on the black stuff is your talent, with no driving aids and a boost spike it added a dimension I don't miss in mine.
I dont honestly think that, WITHOUT aero, low ride height and slicks there is huge amount of difference betwwen 400bhp per tonne and 600 per tonne. You can only use what you can deploy, just be careful you don't create a monster!!!!
Here's my experience. I have owned a 215bhp Westfield that topped the scales at about 520kgs. I then owned a Silva Phoenix that weighed in at a smidge more but had on a good day 125bhp of fiats finest. Then a turbo r1 fury which is now NA as the turbo setup was to unreliable. Across all 3 cars I've done over 60k miles...
They've all been great fun in different ways. The brute delivery and torque of the Vauxhall red top in the Westfield along with proper sticky meant that was the quickest and most exploitable. the Phoenix had wafer thin rock hard ditch finders that meant the slide was unpredictable, sudden and often violent. It kept the sphincter tight in a very different way. The turbo r1 was hilarious when it worked but due to reliability I never got to find it's limits. The current fury setup with a plain r1 is amazing quick, pointy and fun, but the peaky power delivery and slightly to big rears means that the big sideways posing days are a thing of the past and you can just nail it on corner exit.
The car that was hardest to drive quick was the Phoenix. It taught me to be much smoother and think far more about speed conservation, as once lost it was much harder to get back. But because of the rock hard tyres and sense of achievement it was an incredibly rewarding drive.
My conclusions? Matching the tyres to power is key for fun. I drove the Phoenix on the westie tyres and it was s
t as you just mailed the throttle and didn't lift. I drove the westie on the Phoenix tyres and it was comedic for awhile but why just use a quarter throttle all day?
If being the fastest at a track day is important to you slap in the big power and super sticky rubber. But if drive feel and sense of reward is what you want then less power can be just as much fun.
They've all been great fun in different ways. The brute delivery and torque of the Vauxhall red top in the Westfield along with proper sticky meant that was the quickest and most exploitable. the Phoenix had wafer thin rock hard ditch finders that meant the slide was unpredictable, sudden and often violent. It kept the sphincter tight in a very different way. The turbo r1 was hilarious when it worked but due to reliability I never got to find it's limits. The current fury setup with a plain r1 is amazing quick, pointy and fun, but the peaky power delivery and slightly to big rears means that the big sideways posing days are a thing of the past and you can just nail it on corner exit.
The car that was hardest to drive quick was the Phoenix. It taught me to be much smoother and think far more about speed conservation, as once lost it was much harder to get back. But because of the rock hard tyres and sense of achievement it was an incredibly rewarding drive.
My conclusions? Matching the tyres to power is key for fun. I drove the Phoenix on the westie tyres and it was s
t as you just mailed the throttle and didn't lift. I drove the westie on the Phoenix tyres and it was comedic for awhile but why just use a quarter throttle all day?If being the fastest at a track day is important to you slap in the big power and super sticky rubber. But if drive feel and sense of reward is what you want then less power can be just as much fun.
My westy was 218bhp out the box. I've put in a 270hp duratec, the power makes the difference (both na). Felt 218 was a tad under powered tbh.
Had loads of turbo cars, on track na is way more drivable and all 7s need to be light weight, that's the whole point.
So duratec is the right choice and keep it light.
Kinda sounds like I advocate BEC, 9k rpm is enough for me though.
Had loads of turbo cars, on track na is way more drivable and all 7s need to be light weight, that's the whole point.
So duratec is the right choice and keep it light.
Kinda sounds like I advocate BEC, 9k rpm is enough for me though.
As I've said I have a 450 Bhp Sylva, however currently engine is on the bench, track day yesterday and I took my daughters Locost, 1600 i 4age Toyota, absolutely brilliant, loads of stuff that was faster on the streights, but nothing could touch it on the brakes, I decided not to spend any money as I will not be using the cars again until June, so I had a set of Knackered old slicks almost no rear end grip.
We don;t have rules on no overtaking, car was inside all the 911's on the brakes, (I know most people and they give room) but what a great day in a low powered car. It was 25 secs a lap slower than my Sylva but no less smiles.
To answer the question then on BHP /Feel, both are great.
We don;t have rules on no overtaking, car was inside all the 911's on the brakes, (I know most people and they give room) but what a great day in a low powered car. It was 25 secs a lap slower than my Sylva but no less smiles.
To answer the question then on BHP /Feel, both are great.
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