Big Bhp or Feel for Seven style kit car?
Discussion
Struggling to best know what to do guys, so looking for opinions. Due to late night drunken ebay bidding, I picked up a really nice little Sylva striker Kit Car a couple of months back for a good price. I've had a history of fairly quick road cars (TVR 5.0, 911, M3, currently have a Z4M as well) but my last few cars haven't really scared the sh**t out of me like 300bhp plus cars used to. I kinda like that feeling, so high BHP per ton is the way to go. I'd not trust myself on a Bike, so a quick seven style car will hopefully be the answer. It'll be used almost exclusively on the track, but will MOT it for the odd time I might want to take it on the road
For those of you who don't know the sylva, its a seven style lightweight road/track car and has won the kit car championships a few times in years gone by so is a great handling little car. It came with a tuned 1700 crossflow which i've now removed and sold, type 9 gearbox and english live axle.
Id thought of a Duratec 2.0 engine from a fiesta ST150 as a swap. These can be easily tuned to just under 200 bhp with throttle bodies and standalone management, but after that cost lots of money to make much more power. I like the idea of keeping it NA and the engine is relatively light probably only adding 20- 30kgs over the weight of the crossflow that came out of it. All the bits are available off the shelf for mating it to the type9 box and its been done plenty of times before.
Downsides:
If 200 bhp isnt enough then I'll need deep pockets for a turbo or supercharger conversion
Not sure how the type 9 gearbox will stand up to the abuse from the extra power so may also need a rebuild
Throttle bodies and standalone management aren't cheap to buy new
Build costs probably going to be over £3k by the time I get it in the car
My dilema is i've also got a supercharged mx5 track car as well, which will one way or another need to be sold as 4 cars is just too many(5 including my wife's!)
I've looked into it, and the mx5 engine and box will fit into the Sylva chassis with a bit of negotiation. I also have an FM2 turbo kit in the garage which I was going to fit to the MX5 and which will easily push out over 250bhp and would be mental fun in such a lightweight car as the sylva (circa 450bhp per ton)
The MX5 engine and box is very strong and many are running with that kind of power on standard internals. It is a heavy lump though and will be adding around 75kgs over the crossflow or 45kgs over the duratec to the overall weight once the turbo and other bits are connected. I'm pretty sure that would be plenty of power to scare the S**t out of me, but the turbo and supporting parts can easily make 300bhp with forged internals for not ridiculous money if I want more! As I have all the bits including aftermarket ECU etc, costs would be relatively low, and I reckon I could get decent money for the rest of the car by stripping it and selling on as its got a load of upgraded parts fitted.
Downsides:
Weight
Lots of fabrication to get it fit(quite enjoy the challenge so could be fun too)
Turbo'd so wont have the same sound and feel as a high revving NA on ITB's
Hassle of stripping the MX5
Which way would you go??
For those of you who don't know the sylva, its a seven style lightweight road/track car and has won the kit car championships a few times in years gone by so is a great handling little car. It came with a tuned 1700 crossflow which i've now removed and sold, type 9 gearbox and english live axle.
Id thought of a Duratec 2.0 engine from a fiesta ST150 as a swap. These can be easily tuned to just under 200 bhp with throttle bodies and standalone management, but after that cost lots of money to make much more power. I like the idea of keeping it NA and the engine is relatively light probably only adding 20- 30kgs over the weight of the crossflow that came out of it. All the bits are available off the shelf for mating it to the type9 box and its been done plenty of times before.
Downsides:
If 200 bhp isnt enough then I'll need deep pockets for a turbo or supercharger conversion
Not sure how the type 9 gearbox will stand up to the abuse from the extra power so may also need a rebuild
Throttle bodies and standalone management aren't cheap to buy new
Build costs probably going to be over £3k by the time I get it in the car
My dilema is i've also got a supercharged mx5 track car as well, which will one way or another need to be sold as 4 cars is just too many(5 including my wife's!)
I've looked into it, and the mx5 engine and box will fit into the Sylva chassis with a bit of negotiation. I also have an FM2 turbo kit in the garage which I was going to fit to the MX5 and which will easily push out over 250bhp and would be mental fun in such a lightweight car as the sylva (circa 450bhp per ton)
The MX5 engine and box is very strong and many are running with that kind of power on standard internals. It is a heavy lump though and will be adding around 75kgs over the crossflow or 45kgs over the duratec to the overall weight once the turbo and other bits are connected. I'm pretty sure that would be plenty of power to scare the S**t out of me, but the turbo and supporting parts can easily make 300bhp with forged internals for not ridiculous money if I want more! As I have all the bits including aftermarket ECU etc, costs would be relatively low, and I reckon I could get decent money for the rest of the car by stripping it and selling on as its got a load of upgraded parts fitted.
Downsides:
Weight
Lots of fabrication to get it fit(quite enjoy the challenge so could be fun too)
Turbo'd so wont have the same sound and feel as a high revving NA on ITB's
Hassle of stripping the MX5
Which way would you go??
I probably agree with above, the S2000 route but it may mean trans tunnel modifications in the Sylva. I'd imagine it's an expensive solution though as you would need the gearbox, loom and ecu. As well as a propshaft made for it etc.
I am in a similar situation with my MK Indy at the moment which also has a tuned Xflow. It does go bloody well and sounds superb. I am seriously considering a zetec swap over the winter.
Bare in mind that if you the duratec route you will have to either replace the side panel/bonnet or cover up the hole as the exhaust is on the opposite side.
The worst thing about the s2000 is the lack of itb's/big carbs. For me, the intake noise is a big thing and the Honda just doesn't do it for me.
Jeffw is a member on here I think and he has a supercharged zetec and it is f
king rapid!! If it is out and out power you want then I think supercharging is the way to go. He has some videos on YouTube I believe.
Or perhaps bike engined? I have never been in one but I wouldn't mind betting it's frantic! A modern bike motor with 13/14000rpm and nigh on 200bhp would be a force to be reckoned with.
I am in a similar situation with my MK Indy at the moment which also has a tuned Xflow. It does go bloody well and sounds superb. I am seriously considering a zetec swap over the winter.
Bare in mind that if you the duratec route you will have to either replace the side panel/bonnet or cover up the hole as the exhaust is on the opposite side.
The worst thing about the s2000 is the lack of itb's/big carbs. For me, the intake noise is a big thing and the Honda just doesn't do it for me.
Jeffw is a member on here I think and he has a supercharged zetec and it is f
king rapid!! If it is out and out power you want then I think supercharging is the way to go. He has some videos on YouTube I believe.Or perhaps bike engined? I have never been in one but I wouldn't mind betting it's frantic! A modern bike motor with 13/14000rpm and nigh on 200bhp would be a force to be reckoned with.
Thanks guys, already looked at the s2000 as an option. There's a great YouTube video of a guy one in a striker. In a word it's awesome, however I don't think I'd get much change out of £6k with the crazy Second hand value of the engine and box and fitting issues. Also if it did go pop, I'd be another £2.5k just to get an engine replacement. The 2.0 duratec can be had for under £500 in St form or less in standard mondeo form. I looked at the ztec as well, and it would be an easier fit with it mating straight to my current bell housing and exhaust on the same side. The ST170 focus would be the one to go for, cheap as chips and goes well. However, they apparently are a struggle to get much over 170- 180hp out of without spending bigger money and the are quite a bit heavier than the duratec. Thought about bike engine, but the hassle of putting a reverse gear in and getting it all set up put me off.
Edited by gav2612 on Thursday 26th November 14:26
I have a fairly high powered NA Westfield and if I was doing it again go MX5 engine with a turbo. I need to run many revs which creates a lot of heat and noise to make the power. My friend went the MX5 turbo route, in a Westfield, and he has the benefits of really good power without the need for high revs. He is currently at 260 BHP with really nice driveability.
My only comment would be work out how you can get the cooling right before you start. I see many people claim big power and run tiny radiators, then wonder why they can only do a few laps at a time. Keep temps and pressures under control to get reliability, that is not just keeping cool but also getting oil up to temp. I run a Laminova oil water heat exchanger that really helps here.
If you want more info on the MX5 turbo route let me know and I will put you in touch.
My only comment would be work out how you can get the cooling right before you start. I see many people claim big power and run tiny radiators, then wonder why they can only do a few laps at a time. Keep temps and pressures under control to get reliability, that is not just keeping cool but also getting oil up to temp. I run a Laminova oil water heat exchanger that really helps here.
If you want more info on the MX5 turbo route let me know and I will put you in touch.
Big issue with the Sylva is the size of the transmission tunnel, JP made my Phoenix with the transmission tunnel 1 inch wider than a standard to take a Gatreg 5 speed, but this make the seats very narrow, but did open up engine options for me.
I now run a SR20 DET with a big turbo and haltec ecu, up to 450 Bhp for qualifying and 380 for race, a Nissan 5 speed and diff with my own design of IRS in a heavily modified chassis, basically all the chassis behind the driver is to my own design.
This runs big brakes, 17 inch slicks, one off shocks, rad intercooler, etc, single gel seat.
It is very very quick, but it is frankly un-derivable on road tyres, just can't get heat into them, and it is not light 630Kg with a full cage and fuel.
As a track only race car, built to the limit of the rules in a local series, it is fantastic, but I wouldn't go that way if I used it on the road, even just to drive to the track, it is also to fast for most track days, it is just not fun at track days it is around 15% faster in lap times than track evo's etc even when they run slicks.
I know some one with a vtec westfied, and as a road car that's the way I'd go great engine but tall, good power to weight.
I'd also recommend the styles web site and fitting the front anti roll bar kit from Rob, makes a big difference to turn in.
I now run a SR20 DET with a big turbo and haltec ecu, up to 450 Bhp for qualifying and 380 for race, a Nissan 5 speed and diff with my own design of IRS in a heavily modified chassis, basically all the chassis behind the driver is to my own design.
This runs big brakes, 17 inch slicks, one off shocks, rad intercooler, etc, single gel seat.
It is very very quick, but it is frankly un-derivable on road tyres, just can't get heat into them, and it is not light 630Kg with a full cage and fuel.
As a track only race car, built to the limit of the rules in a local series, it is fantastic, but I wouldn't go that way if I used it on the road, even just to drive to the track, it is also to fast for most track days, it is just not fun at track days it is around 15% faster in lap times than track evo's etc even when they run slicks.
I know some one with a vtec westfied, and as a road car that's the way I'd go great engine but tall, good power to weight.
I'd also recommend the styles web site and fitting the front anti roll bar kit from Rob, makes a big difference to turn in.
Thanks Everyone for the comments. As much as id love 500bhp per ton upwards, I think I might be kidding myself on at my level of driving abilty and how much fun it'll actually be on track trying to get that sort of power round a corner. My "quick" cars up until now have had well over 300bhp, but have been heavy mostly heavy german cars like the M3. My Chimera 5.0 is probably the highest power to weight ive owned and they realistically make just under 300bhp(not the factory quoted 340!) and weigh just over a ton.
For ease of conversion and driving experience I think Im now leaning towards the duratec 2.0 engine. I'd use bike throttle bodies and megasuirt to run it which should give me around 180 or so BHP and can easily add cams in the future to take it to just over the 200 bhp mark. That should give me caterham r400 power to weight for under £6k all done.
The MK3 Mx5 gearbox also bolts straight up to the 2.0 duratec although at a 10 degree angle and I might look at that with a custom prop to ensure I dont have a gearbox blown to bits on my first trackday(The weak point would then be the english diff) The transmission tunnel in mine is tight, but from measuring up for the MK1 Mx5 box, I reckoned other than a bit of fettling to the pasenger side at the entry to the tunnel, it would fit.
Long term if I do decide that its not enough power, there are supercharger kits available that will push up to 300bhp on the duratec, but thats when the big spend comes in on uprated internals.
Next choice if I am going down that route is whether to try and sell the MX5 as is or to strip for parts. With a supposed built engine, genuine JRSC supercharger, 16" rota alloys, LSD, Alloy Rad, Oil cooler, etc etc its got probably over £4k in parts resale. Not sure what ill get for it as is. Its got no MOT and on
sorn as ive been trailering it to the track for the last year.
and BERW, your car must be absolutely mental!!
For ease of conversion and driving experience I think Im now leaning towards the duratec 2.0 engine. I'd use bike throttle bodies and megasuirt to run it which should give me around 180 or so BHP and can easily add cams in the future to take it to just over the 200 bhp mark. That should give me caterham r400 power to weight for under £6k all done.
The MK3 Mx5 gearbox also bolts straight up to the 2.0 duratec although at a 10 degree angle and I might look at that with a custom prop to ensure I dont have a gearbox blown to bits on my first trackday(The weak point would then be the english diff) The transmission tunnel in mine is tight, but from measuring up for the MK1 Mx5 box, I reckoned other than a bit of fettling to the pasenger side at the entry to the tunnel, it would fit.
Long term if I do decide that its not enough power, there are supercharger kits available that will push up to 300bhp on the duratec, but thats when the big spend comes in on uprated internals.
Next choice if I am going down that route is whether to try and sell the MX5 as is or to strip for parts. With a supposed built engine, genuine JRSC supercharger, 16" rota alloys, LSD, Alloy Rad, Oil cooler, etc etc its got probably over £4k in parts resale. Not sure what ill get for it as is. Its got no MOT and on
sorn as ive been trailering it to the track for the last year.
and BERW, your car must be absolutely mental!!
Edited by gav2612 on Thursday 26th November 10:48
gav2612 said:
Thought about bike engine, but the hassle of putting a reverse gear in and getting it all set up put me off.
The reverse gear is only needed if you need to IVA it again, which you won't.Just get out and push, not like the thing is heavy and less the reverse box it'll be even lighter.
Gav2612, yep you got my point, my car is mental, it is also a bloody money pit, and it is no use for anything but winning the race series it was built for, if you want road car or even a track day car go easy on chasing power, also I went down the road of using what I had, I would have been better/cheaper selling it and buying something more suitable in the first place, you will never get your money back on a kit, so think about chasing a dream with an impulse ebay buy.
Mind I have won my class in the Asia championship in it a few times, and I love the cups in the garage, also the car is 'me', every one says (in a nice way) that it shouts my rather loud brash personailty
Mind I have won my class in the Asia championship in it a few times, and I love the cups in the garage, also the car is 'me', every one says (in a nice way) that it shouts my rather loud brash personailty
Why would one choose a lightweight scalpel such as one of the very best '7alike's - seriously, a good Striker is one of the finest, lightest, best-handling cars out there - and not want a ringing-singing rev-happy engine that needs exercising via the gearbox to match? Weighing down the front end with some gurt lump because you think you want 'poweeer' does none of it any favours.
I don't understand; cars like this are about learning and exercising and finessing skills, hand-in-a-glove driving, rejoicing when it goes exactly right, and merely being thrilled the rest of the time (at any speed). Not point/squirt/bigtorque-no-thought bks - no shortage of other more comfy routes to such simple ends.
Maybe it's just me.
I don't understand; cars like this are about learning and exercising and finessing skills, hand-in-a-glove driving, rejoicing when it goes exactly right, and merely being thrilled the rest of the time (at any speed). Not point/squirt/bigtorque-no-thought b
ks - no shortage of other more comfy routes to such simple ends.Maybe it's just me.
duratec is easily and cheaply tuned to circa 240bhp with itb's, cams, lightweight flywheel, bot of porting etc. the type 9 can be fitted with stronger gears as well. its not the best box by a long chalk but it is dirt cheap.
you should be able to get the styler sub 600kg with not much difficulty. 400bhp/ton with your arse 2inch off the ground and the wind in your face feels fast in anyone's book.
you should be able to get the styler sub 600kg with not much difficulty. 400bhp/ton with your arse 2inch off the ground and the wind in your face feels fast in anyone's book.
Just to add, don't be put off by people saying the ST170 motors aren't tuneable. They are. Stock motor, 45mm throttle bodies and a set of cat cams will be north of 200bhp, with a set of ARP rod bolts are good for 8000rpm too.
There is/was an ST motor on fleabay with 48's, cat cams, forged Pistons, steel rods and a bit of headwork with a dyno sheet to prove 237bhp.
IMO forced induction has no place in a seven. But there again, I have never driven a boosted one!
There is/was an ST motor on fleabay with 48's, cat cams, forged Pistons, steel rods and a bit of headwork with a dyno sheet to prove 237bhp.
IMO forced induction has no place in a seven. But there again, I have never driven a boosted one!
good thread on the type 9 box here:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid...
also the duratec is 200bhp easy with just ITB's, light flywheel and tuning. you'll also need a raceline sump though.
at 200bhp and 600kg you'll be at 333bhp/tone for a reasonable outlay. a 7 is all about acceleration and handling, top speed limited to the poor aero. i think you'll find it more than quick enough.
a duratec on ITB's with a fruity exhaust sounds great and will rev to 7,000rpm. its a simple engine with good tuner support and engines/simple parts are cheap as chips. use the money you'll save on reconditioning the gearbox and parts which will improve the seven experience. for me these cars are about feel, so spending on a decent pedal box, steering rack, new bushes, proper geo etc. really makes a far bigger difference than outright power.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid...
also the duratec is 200bhp easy with just ITB's, light flywheel and tuning. you'll also need a raceline sump though.
at 200bhp and 600kg you'll be at 333bhp/tone for a reasonable outlay. a 7 is all about acceleration and handling, top speed limited to the poor aero. i think you'll find it more than quick enough.
a duratec on ITB's with a fruity exhaust sounds great and will rev to 7,000rpm. its a simple engine with good tuner support and engines/simple parts are cheap as chips. use the money you'll save on reconditioning the gearbox and parts which will improve the seven experience. for me these cars are about feel, so spending on a decent pedal box, steering rack, new bushes, proper geo etc. really makes a far bigger difference than outright power.
Ok Decision made, its going to be a duratec!
Having read all your feedback, I realise this little car is all about the feel, balance and revs. A big high torque turbo lump up front isn't going to be the same fun. Rewinding back a few years, I had a bog standard 1.8 mx5 with open diff for my first dedicated track car. Quick it was not, but had great fun in it which is what its all about.
I've measured up the tunnel and reckon I can get a MK3 Mx5 box in there at a push. This will bolt straight up to the Duratec. Although the thread on the Type 9 was very interesting and it looks like it may well stand up to 200bhp, I just don't like the gearbox that much. Apparently the mx5 box will cant over at 10 degrees if fitted to the ford duratec as the mazda engine sits over at an angle. Will look into a fabricated shifter to get the gearstick nearer upright and may fit the engine at a two or 3 degree angle to reduce the angle down a bit. If I cant make it fit, I'll make do with the type 9 meantime. Looking to do it without spending a fortune, I was considering Bike throttle bodies and megasquirt. Anyone have any advice on this? Whilst I realise drivability and ultimate power may be a bit down on other solutions, I can have the fueling and ignition up and running this way for under £700 as opposed to over £2k for Jenvey and Omex combination. I've done basic tuning before with MS and have someone local who can map it on a RR
Having read all your feedback, I realise this little car is all about the feel, balance and revs. A big high torque turbo lump up front isn't going to be the same fun. Rewinding back a few years, I had a bog standard 1.8 mx5 with open diff for my first dedicated track car. Quick it was not, but had great fun in it which is what its all about.
I've measured up the tunnel and reckon I can get a MK3 Mx5 box in there at a push. This will bolt straight up to the Duratec. Although the thread on the Type 9 was very interesting and it looks like it may well stand up to 200bhp, I just don't like the gearbox that much. Apparently the mx5 box will cant over at 10 degrees if fitted to the ford duratec as the mazda engine sits over at an angle. Will look into a fabricated shifter to get the gearstick nearer upright and may fit the engine at a two or 3 degree angle to reduce the angle down a bit. If I cant make it fit, I'll make do with the type 9 meantime. Looking to do it without spending a fortune, I was considering Bike throttle bodies and megasquirt. Anyone have any advice on this? Whilst I realise drivability and ultimate power may be a bit down on other solutions, I can have the fueling and ignition up and running this way for under £700 as opposed to over £2k for Jenvey and Omex combination. I've done basic tuning before with MS and have someone local who can map it on a RR
I must say that I have never thought a turbocharger (as opposed to a supercharger) is the best way for a Seven because the of the risk of sudden power changes mid-corner. I suppose it could be said of the S2000 V-Tech too except that isn't so incremental. The Duratec is a good choice all things considered. The S2000 gearbox is a really nice one though.
Sorry, bit late to the discussion but for the road my view is that around 180hp/140ftlbs and rev to 8k with a tad under 600kg on 185/195 tyres is the sweet spot (diff around the 4:1 mark). This would be plenty quick enough and still be able to use 80% of the performance on the road if required.
So if I were to build another kit, I would go for a Zetec SE 1.7 with cams, HD springs, rod bolts and ITBs (185hp and very light) in a Raw Stiker with a close ratio type 9 (SPC Tracsport semi helical?) or if funds allow an elite sequential.
Just my 2p's worth.
So if I were to build another kit, I would go for a Zetec SE 1.7 with cams, HD springs, rod bolts and ITBs (185hp and very light) in a Raw Stiker with a close ratio type 9 (SPC Tracsport semi helical?) or if funds allow an elite sequential.
Just my 2p's worth.
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