Brexit benefit to kit cars?

Brexit benefit to kit cars?

Author
Discussion

Stuart Mills

Original Poster:

1,208 posts

205 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
It was Brussels that decided the UK must conform with European regulations and put all vehicle builders and manufacturers through the rigmarole of an IVA test. £450 a go too. But only £75 for a trailer.
My issue is not the test itself but the fact that none of the European Countries allow UK IVA'd cars to be road legal. Bizarre, the only way we can sell to France for instance is to IVA and register in the UK and then export a second hand car/trailer.
Certainly then, from my perspective as a kit car/mini caravan manufacturer I rather favour the idea of supporting Boris and his entourage..

ColinM50

2,630 posts

174 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
But it's not that easy is it Stuart from inside or outside EU.

Let's say we do exit and for some weird reason VOSA agree to relax the rules and let us Brits have "easier" IVA rules. Good you might say. BUT, now in this post Brexit scenario if you want to export your products to the EU, they're hardly going to relax their rules are they? In fact without the Brits cajoling and lobbying and voting to allow and legalise kit cars in the first place, maybe the French and German view will prevail and they'll just ban them completely. then you will be "jusqu'à la crique sans pagaie"

Frankthered

1,619 posts

179 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Did Brussels force the UK to introduce IVA? Really?

Or did they force us to introduce SVA??

There's no doubt to me that SVA/IVA has been a benefit to the standard of cars on the roads and, ultimately, to the standards of kit car industry.

What would you really expect to change, Stuart? I doubt IVA is going to go away and it's very doubtful that VOSA would suddenly reduce the price to something more acceptable. Would it just be a perceived reduction in the threat of further legislation?

I doubt a Brecit would change much in the world of kit cars, in the short term at least.

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Frankthered said:
Did Brussels force the UK to introduce IVA? Really?
There's a very strong historical argument to say that yes, they did.

It was the price we had to pay for maintaining a specialist/kit car industry at all, in the face of EU requirements that demanded that a car homologated in one EU state should be accepted in all others.

Despite hating SVA/IVA, though, I'm strongly pro-European.

There's no reason to think it would wind back the clock on legislation if we were to exit, and the bigger picture is much more harmful to UK businesses (including and especially for specialist car manufacturers, where the EU opens up a relatively large market at relatively trivial cost in terms of homologation/approval).

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Equus said:
There's a very strong historical argument to say that yes, they did.

It was the price we had to pay for maintaining a specialist/kit car industry at all, in the face of EU requirements that demanded that a car homologated in one EU state should be accepted in all others.

Despite hating SVA/IVA, though, I'm strongly pro-European.

There's no reason to think it would wind back the clock on legislation if we were to exit, and the bigger picture is much more harmful to UK businesses (including and especially for specialist car manufacturers, where the EU opens up a relatively large market at relatively trivial cost in terms of homologation/approval).
seems to be the great outie myth of less regulation has landed in this sub forum ...

Stuart Mills

Original Poster:

1,208 posts

205 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
My point was it is weird that those forcing IVA upon us do not accept IVA'd cars in their Countries.
Obviously our cars should be tested before going on public roads.

Fastpedeller

3,848 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
It is certainly strange - given that it's an agreed check for use in UK, why should it be any less safe in the rest of Europe?
They don't check (more than once) the 'nut behind the wheel' which is the biggest factor affecting road users' safetyconfused

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Stuart Mills said:
My point was it is weird that those forcing IVA upon us do not accept IVA'd cars in their Countries.
Yes they do. Visit this year's 24 Heure du Mans if you want to see the proof.

Without IVA and EU membership, you won't even be able to export UK registered cars. Companies like Lotus and Morgan won't have access to a low-volume type approval system that allows them to homologate cars for the UK and EU in one go.

There's not even any guarantee that UK registered cars would be allowed to visit mainland Europe for things like a trip to Le Mans, the Nurburgring or the Alps without significant bureaucracy being put in the way.

Stuart Mills

Original Poster:

1,208 posts

205 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Equus said:
Yes they do. Visit this year's 24 Heure du Mans if you want to see the proof.

Without IVA and EU membership, you won't even be able to export UK registered cars. Companies like Lotus and Morgan won't have access to a low-volume type approval system that allows them to homologate cars for the UK and EU in one go.

There's not even any guarantee that UK registered cars would be allowed to visit mainland Europe for things like a trip to Le Mans, the Nurburgring or the Alps without significant bureaucracy being put in the way.
oh that is good news, I will start selling to France in the morning.

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Stuart Mills said:
oh that is good news, I will start selling to France in the morning.
Nah, you're onto a loser, there. Even if you managed to gain EC SSTA, the French are famed for their taste and sophistication. wink

MKnight702

3,096 posts

213 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Equus said:
Stuart Mills said:
My point was it is weird that those forcing IVA upon us do not accept IVA'd cars in their Countries.
Yes they do. Visit this year's 24 Heure du Mans if you want to see the proof.

Without IVA and EU membership, you won't even be able to export UK registered cars. Companies like Lotus and Morgan won't have access to a low-volume type approval system that allows them to homologate cars for the UK and EU in one go.

There's not even any guarantee that UK registered cars would be allowed to visit mainland Europe for things like a trip to Le Mans, the Nurburgring or the Alps without significant bureaucracy being put in the way.
No they don't. When I was selling my Westfield XI, I had numerous enquiries from France. I had to tell them to enquire with the local authorities as I knew that they didn't accept IVA'd kit cars to be registered in France. The low volume type approval that Morgan use is different.

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
MKnight702 said:
No they don't. When I was selling my Westfield XI, I had numerous enquiries from France. I had to tell them to enquire with the local authorities as I knew that they didn't accept IVA'd kit cars to be registered in France. The low volume type approval that Morgan use is different.
The point I was making is that the rest of Europe allows us on their roads. You won't even be guaranteed that, if we withdraw from the EC. Stuart's assertion was that "none of the European Countries allow UK IVA'd cars to be road legal", which is not true, What he meant was that none of them allow UK IVA certified cars to be registered as new in different EU jurisdictions.

And as Stuart himself admits, there are many EU countries that allow UK tested and registered cars to be exported, and all allow them to be legally used on the road, provided they maintain their UK registration.

EC SSTA (European Community Small Scale Type Approval - the system Morgan and Lotus use) at least gives a reasonably low-cost option for small manufacturers to access the whole of the European market. We'd exclude ourselves from that, too, so that manufacturers would have to approve their cars in the UK, and then separately for the rest of the EU.

Frankthered

1,619 posts

179 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Equus said:
Frankthered said:
Did Brussels force the UK to introduce IVA? Really?
There's a very strong historical argument to say that yes, they did.

It was the price we had to pay for maintaining a specialist/kit car industry at all, in the face of EU requirements that demanded that a car homologated in one EU state should be accepted in all others.

Despite hating SVA/IVA, though, I'm strongly pro-European.

There's no reason to think it would wind back the clock on legislation if we were to exit, and the bigger picture is much more harmful to UK businesses (including and especially for specialist car manufacturers, where the EU opens up a relatively large market at relatively trivial cost in terms of homologation/approval).
The point I was making though is that we already had SVA and, in the great scheme of things, there really isn't that much difference between SVA and IVA. At least from a technical point of view.

Other than some detail changes, the main difference is the cost and I doubt anyone from Brussels had a say in that!

I agree with Stuart, however; it would make more sense if the rest of Europe would accept IVA approved cars being registered in their countries.

jamesG20V6

873 posts

256 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
This is an interesting point and a failing of the kit car industry generally, most likely down to scale rather than lack of will.

Instead of just saying f**k Europe with their narrow minded views and rules, someone needs to take up the cause and start lobbying and beating the drum and taking the fight to them to find a way to allow easier sales of kits and built cars into Europe. The idea that we are part of Europe, build something that complies with legislation yet we can't export into Europe is utter nonsense and peculiar to the industry. Low volume type approval and the cost in relation to numbers produced is not the answer.

Doing so would open up a massive market and dare I say make it worthwhile for new manufacturers to make the massive investment required to build and produce a proper kit from product. Turning introvert and saying we want nothing to do them can only be shortsighted for anyone long term in the industry?




Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
jamesG20V6 said:
Low volume type approval and the cost in relation to numbers produced is not the answer.
Serious question, but why not?

Devil's Advocate:

The clue is in the name. IVA is supposed to be for Individually built and registered (or imported) vehicles - it's not supposed to be a loophole for small manufacturers to dodge the proper safety and emissions testing rules.

In theory (and notwithstanding the French and some other being so bureaucratic that it's next to impossible), once a car has been registered in one EU country, it can be exported and registered in any other.

Paraphrased and simplified, to import/export cars between two EU countries, you need:
  • A Certificate of Conformity (basically the Type Approval certificate), in which case you can register new in the importing country, if the car hasn't previously been registered.
OR

  • A registration document AND a certificate of Compliance (AKA the MAC, in IVA terms).
There is no logical reason why an INDIVIDUALLY constructed vehicle should be built in one country and first registered in another; after all, why shouldn't the builder be expected to register the vehicle in his or her home country, where it was built? Hence the legislation is not set up to support this.

If you're a MANUFACTURER, you have EC SSTA, which is already a cut-down, budget version of full type approval.

The fact that your business model cannot sustain proper certification, to demonstrate an appropriate level of safety and efficiency for sale to the public, is not something you can expect either the EU's or the UK Government to bail you out on.

Stuart Mills

Original Poster:

1,208 posts

205 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Unfortunate quote from EQUUS below, where the kit cars to Europe point is completely missed;

"The fact that your business model cannot sustain proper certification, to demonstrate an appropriate level of safety and efficiency for sale to the public, is not something you can expect either the EU's or the UK Government to bail you out on."

I should perhaps point out that IVA is the only route for conformity of kit cars.
Type approval applies to low volume identical cars and not kits built at home.
Upon a successful IVA test an IAC is (not MAC) provided.
An IAC is not accepted anywhere apart from UK.
IVA applications costs £199 for low volume and £450 for amateure.
Low volume type approval is no use what so ever for a firm selling kits.

Instead let us consider the high quality IVA-able products offered by the UK kit car industry who are unable to sell kits to European Countries who do not allow the huge potential for home car builders to flourish on their own turf, but do inflict their rules upon us in the UK.

Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Stuart Mills said:
I should perhaps point out that IVA is the only route for conformity of kit cars.
Understood. So you can't sell kits to EU countries that don't have an individual certification system like the UK.

So what's that got to do with being in or out of the EU?

IVA is a 'special relaxation' allowed by the UK government. If other EU governments choose not to allow such a relaxation, that's up to them.

What do you want to do - force the rest of the EU to accept our IVA system, whether they like it or not?

Can you imagine how the sort of response such a suggestion would get from out Government, if it were coming in the other direction?

You can't have it both ways: complaining that the EU 'inflicts' its rules on us, whilst suggesting that as a special measure, to suit your business, we should be able to inflict our rules on them?

fuoriserie

4,560 posts

268 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all

Stuart Mills

Original Poster:

1,208 posts

205 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
fuoriserie said:
Thank you posting that, you are right it is interesting to see how it is said the likes of Nissan, Aston Martin, JLR, Toyota, Rolls Royce and Ford could be impacted upon if Britain exited. Not a mention of the word KIT anywhere in that document, but obviously UK gov are not going to concern themselves with kit car manufacturers in preference of the major automotive industry employers. Maybe politics is for another forum, sorry for bringing it up.

fuoriserie

4,560 posts

268 months

Saturday 30th April 2016
quotequote all
Stuart Mills said:
Thank you posting that, you are right it is interesting to see how it is said the likes of Nissan, Aston Martin, JLR, Toyota, Rolls Royce and Ford could be impacted upon if Britain exited. Not a mention of the word KIT anywhere in that document, but obviously UK gov are not going to concern themselves with kit car manufacturers in preference of the major automotive industry employers. Maybe politics is for another forum, sorry for bringing it up.
I agree with you , this deal is for the big guys and not for kitcar manufactures.....I personally hope there is a shake- up in the EU and favour the Brexit, you would be more independent from corrupt and inept burocrats( lobbied by the multinationals against the will of the people....) in Brussels.

With reference to selling cars in the EU with the IVA, I can confirm you, that you can sell it in Italy.....but if Kitcar manufactures had an association of manufactures and had lobbied the EU in the past with more vigor, it would have made things easier....but it didn't happen !.....I've been saying this for about 10yrs....too late now, as things are getting tougher for everyone.