Brexit benefit to kit cars?
Discussion
I'm not necessarily a fan of MEVs current car line up, as they don't fit my requirements at the moment, but I do respect what they do. I don't think you could argue that any of them are bad engineering, the number of happy customers also appears to be huge. Maybe you don't like the products but they appear to hit a niche and the industry would be far smaller without MEV's offerings.
Good to see that Eco-Exo has been mentioned, I have not seen one for many years but I hear the business is for sale. An opportunity arises here for anyone wishing to take part in ensuring new and varied products are offered for sale as kits. The Eco-Exo is a very light low powered trike, a commuter based on a 250cc Scooter, massive MPG.
The use of the steering axis rose joint has presumably been tested and proven as fit for the purpose by the firm that used to make it and VOSA, but looks easy to change if the buyer of the business desires.
So step forward if kit car manufacturing floats your boat, failing that please consider encouraging others to jump in and provide new products for us to enjoy. Positive and supportive posts on here may help encourage the diversity of vehicles to be offered in the future.
In terms of EU membership, we have our gov with their rules added to and influenced by Brussels and so it's not an easy game we play.
The legislation is complex, and often quoted partially or incorrectly or out of context.
We guide all our customers to ensure they are legal UK motorists, but we only have a handful of customers in the rest of Europe, what a waste and how frustrating for our visitors to Stoneleigh from over seas. I was asked loads of times if our cars are homologated, not something that is going to happen I am afraid, not cost effective, and not applicable to home build kit cars as previously mentioned.
The use of the steering axis rose joint has presumably been tested and proven as fit for the purpose by the firm that used to make it and VOSA, but looks easy to change if the buyer of the business desires.
So step forward if kit car manufacturing floats your boat, failing that please consider encouraging others to jump in and provide new products for us to enjoy. Positive and supportive posts on here may help encourage the diversity of vehicles to be offered in the future.
In terms of EU membership, we have our gov with their rules added to and influenced by Brussels and so it's not an easy game we play.
The legislation is complex, and often quoted partially or incorrectly or out of context.
We guide all our customers to ensure they are legal UK motorists, but we only have a handful of customers in the rest of Europe, what a waste and how frustrating for our visitors to Stoneleigh from over seas. I was asked loads of times if our cars are homologated, not something that is going to happen I am afraid, not cost effective, and not applicable to home build kit cars as previously mentioned.
Edited by Stuart Mills on Wednesday 4th May 11:32
Edited by Stuart Mills on Wednesday 4th May 11:32
Edited by Stuart Mills on Wednesday 4th May 11:33
Stuart Mills said:
The use of the steering axis rose joint has presumably been tested and proven as fit for the purpose by the firm that used to make it and VOSA, but looks easy to change if the buyer of the business desires.
So, to be clear, you are saying that you were not responsible for this aspect of the design and that it was introduced by others, after the project passed out of your hands?Have you any idea why?
The weasel picture would appear to show a wishbone with a tube welded on for a threaded rose joint to screw into. A much more pleasing looking arrangement. I'm guessing this is off one Stuart built himself possibly or at least his original design.
The rose joint fitted with 2 screws is probably functional but I'd not feel comfortable driving 9/10ths with it like that and it's not adjustable. It just looks like a horrendous bodge and that's 2 fairly small screws carrying the weight of that corner.
The rose joint fitted with 2 screws is probably functional but I'd not feel comfortable driving 9/10ths with it like that and it's not adjustable. It just looks like a horrendous bodge and that's 2 fairly small screws carrying the weight of that corner.
Oldandslow said:
I'm guessing this is off one Stuart built himself possibly or at least his original design.
I'm guessing that's what he wants you to guess. I'm guessing that your guess is wrong, otherwise he'd have just come out and said that, without small reddish-brown mustelids being involved.
Oldandslow said:
It just looks like a horrendous bodge
It does, doesn't it?Equus said:
Stuart Mills said:
"switching to caravan manufacturing"? Not sure where you heard that.
Why, from Steffan. 
Though I notice that you weren't the only manufacturer offering a kit-form caravan at Stoneleigh this year.
Brussels did NOT inflict trailer IVA upon the UK, any more than it inflicted vehicle IVA upon us. It was our government's choice to frame suitable national regulations, which is why the Dutch can choose not to. Though I suspect that in the case of your 'Exopods' they simply have a different (and possibly more correct) view and approach to trailer caravans as 'Special Purpose Vehicles'.
Given the number of crashes involving caravans on my local motorway (the M5 to Devon and Cornwall) at this time of year, I wholeheartedly support any efforts to improve safety standards with the damned things.
Incidentally:
European type approval 94/20/EC said:
In the U.K, with effect from 1st August 1998 all Passenger Carrying Vehicles up to 3500kgs Gross Vehicle Weight (M1 Vehicles) can only be fitted with European Type Approved towbars if the vehicle has received European Whole Vehicle Type Approval.
I assume you've got the necessary type approval for the towbar you're showing fitted to the Exocet for towing the Exopod?What's the approval number, so that I can check?
That being the case there would be no approval number to check, as I say, if my understanding is correct.
Gemaeden said:
Surely if my understanding of English is correct, which isn't always the case, in what has been quoted from European type approval 94/20/EC, this means that only those vehicles that have received European Whole Vehicle Type Approval can be fitted with European Type Approved tow-bars. From this I would infer that those vehicles that do not have Type Approval such as those that need IVA cannot be fitted with Type Approved tow-bars.
That being the case there would be no approval number to check, as I say, if my understanding is correct.
IVA doesn't test towbars That being the case there would be no approval number to check, as I say, if my understanding is correct.
None type approved towbars cannot be fitted to vehicles first registered/ used after the introduction date ...
Gemaeden said:
... only those vehicles that have received European Whole Vehicle Type Approval can be fitted with European Type Approved tow-bars. From this I would infer that those vehicles that do not have Type Approval such as those that need IVA cannot be fitted with Type Approved tow-bars.
Your understanding matches mine.And for cars first manufactured/registered after 1998, it is a legal requirement that the tow bar should be type approved.
Equus said:
Stuart Mills said:
We do not sell tow bars.
But you're happy to market caravans as 'the perfect accessory for your Exocet', knowing full well that the Exocet cannot legally be equipped to tow anything?
No wonder you're not keen on being part of the community that makes such regulations!
CanAm said:
Is that Exocet a 3-wheeler? Look at the back end.... I'm using my phone, so apologies if it looks ok full size.
It shouldn't be but I can see what you mean. 
If it's engineered like the Eco-Exo, there's every chance that one has fallen off, but you'd have thought they'd have noticed?
TOW BARS, please see the IVA manual, here you will see the Couplings section, it confirms that towing devices are permitted on IVA'd vehicles.
BOTTOM BALL JOINTS, in very common use is a Maxi ball joint, held down by 2 8mm 8.8 bolts for use on a car that could be say 750kgs with a V8. I have never heard of one failing.
With regards to the Eco-Exo I would prefer to see ball joints secured in the manner they were designed to be. But if one considers the all up weight of the Eco-Exo as being around 240kgs inc driver then the 2 12.9 bolts that look to be either 10mm or 12mm would appear on face value to be adequate although not mechanically keyed in. But then assuming 80kg per corner, that is less than a plastic garden wheel barrow is designed for.
That said there are many other ball joints available on the market that would drop straight on the Eco-Exo so hopefully if it goes back into production this area will be improved. Remember the business is for sale. Contact Qdos cars.
Anyone who feels they can do better should start a kit car business, I recommend it, it's great fun, very rewarding but not always as financially viable as one would have hoped, hence the lack of new products and regular comments that we need more.
BOTTOM BALL JOINTS, in very common use is a Maxi ball joint, held down by 2 8mm 8.8 bolts for use on a car that could be say 750kgs with a V8. I have never heard of one failing.
With regards to the Eco-Exo I would prefer to see ball joints secured in the manner they were designed to be. But if one considers the all up weight of the Eco-Exo as being around 240kgs inc driver then the 2 12.9 bolts that look to be either 10mm or 12mm would appear on face value to be adequate although not mechanically keyed in. But then assuming 80kg per corner, that is less than a plastic garden wheel barrow is designed for.
That said there are many other ball joints available on the market that would drop straight on the Eco-Exo so hopefully if it goes back into production this area will be improved. Remember the business is for sale. Contact Qdos cars.
Anyone who feels they can do better should start a kit car business, I recommend it, it's great fun, very rewarding but not always as financially viable as one would have hoped, hence the lack of new products and regular comments that we need more.
Stuart Mills said:
TOW BARS, please see the IVA manual, here you will see the Couplings section, it confirms that towing devices are permitted on IVA'd vehicles.
And also states "1. Any towing device fitted must be of the correct type and be fitted with a 50mm diameter tow ball
2. The coupling frame must bear an ‘e’ or ‘E’ mark to ensure the construction of the device meets the appropriate approval criteria. "
Given that the e mark includes a reference number to indicate which vehicle(s) it's approved for, and that the "appropriate criteria" include consideration of the mounting points, it seems a little difficult to fit a towbar designed for a production vehicle to something with a very different chassis.
Stuart Mills said:
TOW BARS, please see the IVA manual, here you will see the Couplings section, it confirms that towing devices are permitted on IVA'd vehicles.
You mean Section 50? The bit that starts: "this section applies to all devices that have been fitted post vehicle manufacture"?Unfortunately, that means it doesn't apply to devices fitted to vehicles as part of the manufacturing process and that are being IVA'd for first registration.
It goes on to say: "The coupling frame must bear an ‘e’ or ‘E’ mark to ensure the construction of the device meets the appropriate approval criteria."
Unfortunately, for vehicles manufactured after 1998, this does not over-ride 94/20/EC, which precludes the coupling frame meeting 'appropriate approval criteria' if the vehicle to which it is attached does not have EU WVTA.
If you're getting IVA certification for a coupling device that has being added to a vehicle manufactured before 1998, you're just fine.
Stuart Mills said:
...the 2 12.9 bolts that look to be either 10mm or 12mm would appear on face value to be adequate
It's not the strength of the bolts that's the issue.It's the fact that you've drilled through, and then clamped, the hollow stem of a female rose joint. On the one hand, there is a risk that cracks could develop on the stem of the Rose joint where it has been drilled. On the other, the fact that you're effectively compressing a hollow 'tube' may mean that there's potential for the 'tube' to deflect to the point where the clamping bolt can work loose, or for fatigue cracks to develop.
You really ought to know these things, and be able to interpret legislation correctly, if you're in the business of manufacturing vehicles.
eta: crossed in posting with Marshalla's posting, above, which covers some of the same ground.
Edited by Equus on Thursday 5th May 10:20
Our tow bar supplier includes Exocet as part of their approved vehicle fitment for their Fiesta MK3 units. This has taken a few months to arrange and was not cheap either. The Exocet in the picture is not a car, it is a mock up, no diff, engine and 2 wheels.
It should be made clear however that tow bars are not sold for retro fitting to Exocet's as the appropriate brackets for mounting them have to be approved as part of an IVA test and a declaration of train weight be submitted upon registration of vehicles. This info is also recorded on the manufacturers plate.
It is kind of you all to point out the requirement for EU tow bars but rest assured we operate within the law.
It should be made clear however that tow bars are not sold for retro fitting to Exocet's as the appropriate brackets for mounting them have to be approved as part of an IVA test and a declaration of train weight be submitted upon registration of vehicles. This info is also recorded on the manufacturers plate.
It is kind of you all to point out the requirement for EU tow bars but rest assured we operate within the law.
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