Is There a Market for a Mid-Engine Coupe Kit?
Poll: Is There a Market for a Mid-Engine Coupe Kit?
Total Members Polled: 36
Discussion
ugg10 said:
Anotehr couple to add to the list -
the semi-still born Gregori GPR - not bad looking uses a Mk3 Escort drive train mid/rear
and not sure if this has been mentioned the GTM Rossa - Metro bit in the mid/rear -
I'm with frankherd on this - if it could be done for under £10k on the road with decent styling (all in the eye of the buyer), I guess the cheapest and probably most successful would be a fibreglass sandwich centre tub with tubular subframes front and rear that way mechanics are kept simple (double wish bones all round and stock bits, MR2?) and the door shuts etc. can be controlled to give a water tight finish with integrated dash mouldings etc. The alternative is something like the Sylva Vectis that uses the front and rear subframes in tact (from an MGF) bolted onto a steel spaceframe with a GRP body cloaking it (MEV Replicar does the same with the MX5). More scope for getting the doors etc. to fit badly but may be more efficient.
See, updates to either of those designs (I think that Rossa looks great in orange) with MR2 or maybe MGF subframes and parts (engine in the right place, suspension set up for the same configuration etc) is kind of why I started the topic. Can the GTM designs be reengineered underneath, relatively cost effectively? Who owns them, these days?the semi-still born Gregori GPR - not bad looking uses a Mk3 Escort drive train mid/rear
and not sure if this has been mentioned the GTM Rossa - Metro bit in the mid/rear -
I'm with frankherd on this - if it could be done for under £10k on the road with decent styling (all in the eye of the buyer), I guess the cheapest and probably most successful would be a fibreglass sandwich centre tub with tubular subframes front and rear that way mechanics are kept simple (double wish bones all round and stock bits, MR2?) and the door shuts etc. can be controlled to give a water tight finish with integrated dash mouldings etc. The alternative is something like the Sylva Vectis that uses the front and rear subframes in tact (from an MGF) bolted onto a steel spaceframe with a GRP body cloaking it (MEV Replicar does the same with the MX5). More scope for getting the doors etc. to fit badly but may be more efficient.
I think £10k OTR may be wishing for a bit much (though I think that would be a great target price) but if someone could get close, surely there would be 'value' here over a new manufacturer car (like the Elise) and even some second hand cars!? I still think it would need a USP above and beyond building it yourself i.e. low weight, bike engine etc. It needs to be 'different', offer something interesting.
Equos: yep afforabliity is a MAJOR factor, and some cars like sevens dont REALLY have bodywork so trade on the "function over form" which does have some merit for some people... but basically, in today's fickle market, it has to look good, or be skeletal, or don't bother!
Audi TT was poor to drive relative to the Celica 190, but it looked better and had nicely thunky sounding doors - so it sold better... etc etc ...image over substance.
Yo can make a very well respected car, or you can make a very desirable car... and if its a business you'd be better off making it look ace. (ideally, both!!)
and someone said the MR2 roadster chassis is "old". may be from 1998, but it's also very capable so I wouldnt write it off as a decent donor... It won't catch a good Seven on track, but it'd be much nicer to drive to Monaco in!
Audi TT was poor to drive relative to the Celica 190, but it looked better and had nicely thunky sounding doors - so it sold better... etc etc ...image over substance.
Yo can make a very well respected car, or you can make a very desirable car... and if its a business you'd be better off making it look ace. (ideally, both!!)
and someone said the MR2 roadster chassis is "old". may be from 1998, but it's also very capable so I wouldnt write it off as a decent donor... It won't catch a good Seven on track, but it'd be much nicer to drive to Monaco in!
dom9 said:
Can the GTM designs be reengineered underneath, relatively cost effectively? Who owns them, these days?
Westfield bought them and absorbed them into their production setup. http://westfield-sportscars.co.uk/westfield-sports... Nothing has happened with the cars since as far as I know.ajprice said:
dom9 said:
Can the GTM designs be reengineered underneath, relatively cost effectively? Who owns them, these days?
Westfield bought them and absorbed them into their production setup. http://westfield-sportscars.co.uk/westfield-sports... Nothing has happened with the cars since as far as I know.
They also bought a Larini and stuck some hideous wheels and gtm badges on it. Sold None.
From those efforts it is not looking good for future gtm, until it is relinquished to someone else.
The Ballista and 40TR were both shown by GTM when owned by RDM who later sold up to Westfield. Thankfully nothing happened with either!
The problem with the Libra/Spyder was the cost of producing the monocoque. Not just the labour of laying it up in the mould but also the length of time it was sat in the mould. Then of course the mould then needed repair after every couple of bodies. There are also a lot of GRP parts. Not just body but interior trim panels, rad ducts etc.
To make it differently on a spaceframe chassis with more up to date running gear with updated styling might well work. It wouldn't be a the spirit of GTM though as they were famous for using a monocoque. It would also be a shame as the K series was the perfect light weight, rev happy great sounding engine for it.
The floppy trailing arm rear suspension wouldn't be missed though!
The problem with the Libra/Spyder was the cost of producing the monocoque. Not just the labour of laying it up in the mould but also the length of time it was sat in the mould. Then of course the mould then needed repair after every couple of bodies. There are also a lot of GRP parts. Not just body but interior trim panels, rad ducts etc.
To make it differently on a spaceframe chassis with more up to date running gear with updated styling might well work. It wouldn't be a the spirit of GTM though as they were famous for using a monocoque. It would also be a shame as the K series was the perfect light weight, rev happy great sounding engine for it.
The floppy trailing arm rear suspension wouldn't be missed though!
jamesG20V6 said:
You have obviously wiped the 'westfield' gtm 40tr from your memory. And who can blame you. God only knows what they were thinking.
They also bought a Larini and stuck some hideous wheels and gtm badges on it. Sold None.
From those efforts it is not looking good for future gtm, until it is relinquished to someone else.
Yes I had wiped that, thanks for bringing back the horror! They also bought a Larini and stuck some hideous wheels and gtm badges on it. Sold None.
From those efforts it is not looking good for future gtm, until it is relinquished to someone else.
While not mid-engined, Widow cars are a new company and their kit is dirt cheap for the MX5. I see no reason why something similar could be done with the MGF or MR2 for similar money, with an equally 'modern' style
http://www.widowsportscars.co.uk/#!kit-price/c1t44
http://www.widowsportscars.co.uk/#!kit-price/c1t44
It is very interesting topic for me. Especially, when I am trying to find an investor who will help me finish my prototype and start small production. But in Poland there is no interested companies or people to take a part in this business.
Sometimes I am wondering if there is any sense to try finish my project. I spent a lot of my time and I am close to give up...
http:/www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&am...
www.kozmo.pl/en
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p93TN8lO-oU
Sometimes I am wondering if there is any sense to try finish my project. I spent a lot of my time and I am close to give up...
http:/www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&am...
www.kozmo.pl/en
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p93TN8lO-oU
I really like the Widow car and stay in touch with those guys.
I think they have a handsome, well proportioned car there. Lets face it - who doesn't like the Sagaris!
However, it's front engine and not a bespoke chassis, so it's not 'ideal' really, for me. It's still on the list of projects I follow though.
If people like the K-series engine then there is of course the potential to rebody an MGF or use its subframes, like the Mini I linked to in the OP.
There is also a Honda conversion available for the MGF, so that would be an awesome upgrade.
I must admit, I like the idea of lightweight and revvy, kind of the opposite of what modern cars seem to be doing.
Something like a mid engine, updated Rossa with a Honda K or B-Series in the boot sounds like a peach to me!
I think they have a handsome, well proportioned car there. Lets face it - who doesn't like the Sagaris!
However, it's front engine and not a bespoke chassis, so it's not 'ideal' really, for me. It's still on the list of projects I follow though.
If people like the K-series engine then there is of course the potential to rebody an MGF or use its subframes, like the Mini I linked to in the OP.
There is also a Honda conversion available for the MGF, so that would be an awesome upgrade.
I must admit, I like the idea of lightweight and revvy, kind of the opposite of what modern cars seem to be doing.
Something like a mid engine, updated Rossa with a Honda K or B-Series in the boot sounds like a peach to me!
TomcatT4 said:
... when I am trying to find an investor who will help me finish my prototype and start small production.
Have you got a properly costed Business Plan that shows how much it will cost to take to production, manufacturing & marketing costs, profit margins and anticipated sales, all backed up by detailed breakdowns of figures and market research?This is where most wannabee kit car manufacturers fall over: they design a car for themselves, assuming that everyone else will share their tastes and aspirations, then fail to recognise how narrow the market becomes if the price is set at a level capable of generating sensible profit.
The number of kit car companies who have managed to break free of this 'vanity project' syndrome is very small indeed.
Equus said:
This is where most wannabee kit car manufacturers fall over: they design a car for themselves, assuming that everyone else will share their tastes and aspirations, then fail to recognise how narrow the market becomes if the price is set at a level capable of generating sensible profit.
AMENGlad to see you're still on with this mission Dom 
We know how long the search has been.
Andy, do you still have Black Bob with his new clothes?
I'm slowly dodging away with the Bonito but decided to move things along differently. Bought a Mk2 mr2 to steal the suspension, hubs, shafts etc on but landed a total shock when the wheelbase of both were exactly the same.
Thoughts then turned to using the Mr2 as a mule (got the audi v8 and box here to make work first) and transfer it all into the modified Bonito chassis. Always a pain trying to make things square so it's come full circle to a rebody. I don't plan to have anything bonded that doesn't have to be.
I'll now keep the Mr2 floorpan, chassis rails, suspension pick ups, electrics, windscreen etc and build in a roll cage with struts running back to the tail. Should be plenty stiff.
Front end and mid engine section will be liftable clam shells. The chassis will be totally rust proofed.
The body does need some visual tweaking too I think but the result should mean I've got a coupe that bypasses a fair amount of the problems scratch builds do.
We know how long the search has been.Andy, do you still have Black Bob with his new clothes?
I'm slowly dodging away with the Bonito but decided to move things along differently. Bought a Mk2 mr2 to steal the suspension, hubs, shafts etc on but landed a total shock when the wheelbase of both were exactly the same.
Thoughts then turned to using the Mr2 as a mule (got the audi v8 and box here to make work first) and transfer it all into the modified Bonito chassis. Always a pain trying to make things square so it's come full circle to a rebody. I don't plan to have anything bonded that doesn't have to be.
I'll now keep the Mr2 floorpan, chassis rails, suspension pick ups, electrics, windscreen etc and build in a roll cage with struts running back to the tail. Should be plenty stiff.
Front end and mid engine section will be liftable clam shells. The chassis will be totally rust proofed.
The body does need some visual tweaking too I think but the result should mean I've got a coupe that bypasses a fair amount of the problems scratch builds do.
I'll never let it go, matey 
I guess my real problem is that I need something completely bespoke, or I'll never be happy!
Was wondering what you were up to, the other day... Hadn't seen an interesting project on the go for a while!
Not sure I'll be at work much longer, for various reasons (as-in, I'll jack it in and with the industry in a downturn, may not have many options), so I need to be a bit careful with cash and the Clio V6 has become a saleable asset so building something may have to wait, as usual!
I guess my real problem is that I need something completely bespoke, or I'll never be happy!
Was wondering what you were up to, the other day... Hadn't seen an interesting project on the go for a while!
Not sure I'll be at work much longer, for various reasons (as-in, I'll jack it in and with the industry in a downturn, may not have many options), so I need to be a bit careful with cash and the Clio V6 has become a saleable asset so building something may have to wait, as usual!
You can buy a lotus Elise for the price a kit would cost you to build. What you can't buy is a 2eleven or exige with circa 200bhp. A mid engined car with decent styling could be offered as a hardcore coupe and a cheaper version for those that just want a track toy. Miss out the Elise bit entirely.
Engines could be Ford sigmas, duratecs and v6 as there's still loads of donors in the form of Fiestas, Pumas, mondeos etc.
Engines could be Ford sigmas, duratecs and v6 as there's still loads of donors in the form of Fiestas, Pumas, mondeos etc.
The problem is as soon as you do a closed body and need more panels costs begin to creep up quickly
Its very hard work to build a coupe and get good lines, mine are far from perfect but the doors most importantly are quite good. Also if one of the 1st everything has to be done 2 or 3 times just to get to a level you want and go from there and even then you can still do it again to a better finish.
- More bodywork to get right
- Larger interior to make and trim
- More extras added or creature comforts like air con
Its very hard work to build a coupe and get good lines, mine are far from perfect but the doors most importantly are quite good. Also if one of the 1st everything has to be done 2 or 3 times just to get to a level you want and go from there and even then you can still do it again to a better finish.
I don't think a ~10k refined coupe in the style of the Elise, or that 818 kit with doors and other niceties is remotely feasible. The references to the GTMs are irrelevant really, think about how crap and bland other cars were at the time especially if you were looking in the second hand market, a Cox would seem like fun. At this point in time, contemporary cars are vastly quicker and more secure in handling. For a coupe to sell rather than people going for a 350z, TT, Elise it would need to be stunningly beautiful, well engineered and handle well.
At an on the road price of 10k I think people will try to cut and paste the suspension, subframe etc from an MR2 or MGF with no regard to the difference in track, wheel base and CofG on damping, spring rates and geometry, so chances are it'll handle no better than averagely. It'llpossibly be awful.
The kit car industry has thrived on being weird in the past. Rather than doors which are hard to do, could something else be used, think of the canopy on a Nova for example.
The Phoenix is a nice car but no wonder it doesn't sell, it's so plain and dated these days, it's neither classically beautiful or modern and edgy. Design talent as I think I've mentioned on other threads is sorely lacking in the kit car world.
At an on the road price of 10k I think people will try to cut and paste the suspension, subframe etc from an MR2 or MGF with no regard to the difference in track, wheel base and CofG on damping, spring rates and geometry, so chances are it'll handle no better than averagely. It'llpossibly be awful.
The kit car industry has thrived on being weird in the past. Rather than doors which are hard to do, could something else be used, think of the canopy on a Nova for example.
The Phoenix is a nice car but no wonder it doesn't sell, it's so plain and dated these days, it's neither classically beautiful or modern and edgy. Design talent as I think I've mentioned on other threads is sorely lacking in the kit car world.
As some will know I made full moulds for my noble body, I made my panels in Carbon however a GF body in gel coat sold with a profit would be around £5k and wouldn't need painting (3 times that for carbon)... If I built it to take to market I would use porsche hubs and uprights so that the wheels and brakes could be bolted straight on (massive cost on cars like Ultimas etc) and are readily available for good price. Then you need an engine etc.
I actually started planning and buying parts to actually build myself another one from scratch using a BMW V10 engine, I costed the car at £15-20k although it was to quite a high spec but with me making all the components (which I have done anyhow on my existing one).
However I changed direction early on and decided to do the same but for a Capri instead, so front engined, carbon bodied full space frame chassis with double wishbone suspension and BMW V10 engine and some proper underside aero... will probably go for a brand new plate as well as like an Ultima everything bar the engine will be new and mostly made by me... only downside is I need to fabricate the body buck and make moulds the moulds, not cheap or quick, but sod it, to me its simply a hobby.
Is there a market for these kind of cars IMO... well yes and no, odd people may buy a kit, but they are so few and far between with loads of people saying they would think it would sell etc, but almost none actually spending cash. as a profitable business they are not properly viable in my eyes.
I actually started planning and buying parts to actually build myself another one from scratch using a BMW V10 engine, I costed the car at £15-20k although it was to quite a high spec but with me making all the components (which I have done anyhow on my existing one).
However I changed direction early on and decided to do the same but for a Capri instead, so front engined, carbon bodied full space frame chassis with double wishbone suspension and BMW V10 engine and some proper underside aero... will probably go for a brand new plate as well as like an Ultima everything bar the engine will be new and mostly made by me... only downside is I need to fabricate the body buck and make moulds the moulds, not cheap or quick, but sod it, to me its simply a hobby.
Is there a market for these kind of cars IMO... well yes and no, odd people may buy a kit, but they are so few and far between with loads of people saying they would think it would sell etc, but almost none actually spending cash. as a profitable business they are not properly viable in my eyes.
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