Mid engine kit car

[thecarbuilder246]

Hi all
New to posting as I can't find in the topic's anything relevant to my build.
I'm building a ferrari dino replica and I'm using a brand new crate cosworth V6
engine.This was from the later granada.
I want to know what front wheel drive gearbox would mate to this engine to sit transversely
in the engine bay. It was using a ford escort rs2000 box with lsd via an adaptor plate but
the gear linkage was crap and I don't think it will handle the power I intend to put through.
Not too bothered about 5 or 6 speed either. Was looking at ford focus st225 and mondeo st220
gearboxes.
Anybody out there done anything like this?
thanks in advance
Ian

[irocfan]

don't a lot of these sorts of projects use a Renault V6 box 'n' gubbins?

[annodomini2]

Alfa V6 and Box, available transverse.

[MKnight702]

Audi V6/8 engine and diesel gearbox is a good start for longitudinal mounting.

Having re-read the OP, I can't think of any gearboxes that would mate to a Ford engine "out of the box" transversely unless the mounting face is common transverse and longitudinal, even so, you may find that a transverse gearbox is not beefy enough as standard to take the torque.

Out of interest, why are you using a 24v engine, they are blooming wide when compared to the 12v unit that provided the lower end?

Would an Alfa V6 and gearbox not be a better start? They are available transverse and are Italian to boot!

[ugg10]

Toyota Camry has a 3.5l transverse v6 and is used (with mods) in the Evora/Exige. There is also the Vectra/Signum/Insignia V6 - the VXR version is a twin turbo v6 pushing out around 270hp IIRC. The MG/Rover 2.5l KV6 is also a nice engine, all alloy and transverse, IIRC there was a couple of GTM Libra's with this in the back which went well.

But as you have identified if you want to use the Ford Cologne engine whatever gearbox you use will need an adaptor plate and the flywheel/starter/clutch probably sorting. May be better to sell that engine, probably worth a bit to the historic racers and use it on a cheaper, more modern, more powerful stock engine.

As has been said the Alfa v6 24v suits the car and has been used in a number of replicas as it is Italian and close to the original fezzer one. But the cheapest swap would probably be the Mondeo 2.5v6, you can probably pick up a whole car with electrics etc, for a couple of hundred £.

Edited by ugg10 on Wednesday 14th September 16:17

[dai1983]

Looking into A similar layout but completely different car myself. So far I've discovered common v6 Duratecs give good bang per £.

-Mondeo st24/cougar 2.5 v6 170bhp single mass flywheel
-Mondeo st200 197bhp version of above with better Inlet and cams
-Mondeo 3.0 st220 220bhp Dual mass flywheel
-Jag x type 3.0 has 230bhp VCT, dual mass and 4x4 box
-Jag s type 3.0 has 240bhp VCT, dual mass and has a different sump due to longitudinal placement.

I've no idea if the Jag engines can be matted to a FWD box or if you could put an St200 solid flywheel on it. Apparently the Jag engines have direct action buckets as opposed to the finger followers of the Ford versions allowing it to rev higher with aftermarket ECUs. The 3.0 engines are taller due to higher Inlet manifolds but the st200 has been made to work and decreasing overall height.

[Fastdruid]

Is it worth considering the M66 as used in the Focus ST225 / Focus RS / Mondeo 2.5T?
Cable shift so it'll be easy to use as in a MR setup.

It'll certainly take a lot of power and LSD's available if you so desire.

Just not really sure how well it mates to the V6.

[thecarbuilder246]

Thanks for the input guys. I want use the cossie unit as I have everything for it-aftermarket ecu / stainless manifolds and full stainless exhaust and at the moment it is fitted in the car. As I said earlier it's mounted to an RS200 escort box with limited slip diff but 1, I don't think the box is going to handle the power for to long 2, being a mid engine the gear shift pattern is reversed (1st gear now 5th gear) 3, Changing gear is a bit hit and miss.
I know I will need an adaptor plate and have looked in to these (there is one fitted at the moment). The noble uses a mondeo box ( I think ) which bolts to the v6 duratec which I believe is a mazda unit, the focus being different to the mondeo box as that bolts to a volvo engine.
What I was really trying to find out was which was the stronger box the mondeo unit or the focus unit? I have been advised to go for a diesel gearbox as these handle the torque better but the downside being they have longer gear ratios.
confused!!
ian

[Fastdruid]

It's why I suggested the M66, it'll take massive amounts of torque but has petrol suitable ratios.

It'll certainly take the 350HP / 325lbft in the Focus RS500 so in a lighter car should be fine with even more.

[andygtt]

I run a Mondeo St220 box on my V6 with a quaife LSD.... I'm running over 700bhp but its not the cheapest option.

If I was you Id use a focus ST box (volvo gearbox actually), I bought one recently for £75 and they can take up to 400bhp reliably.

Edited to add, my car is a noble... at my power level the ST220 box is marginal even though its coped for 5 years at over 600bhp. hence I have been exploring other options i.e. the focus boxs... don't fall into the trap that the St225 box is the same as the focus RS, its not. however they are reliable at sub 400bhp and cheap as chips so unlike the Mondoe box you don't HAVE to have an LSD (the mondeo open diff is the weak point failing at 250-300bhp).

I have a number of 'mock' up boxs.

Edited by andygtt on Thursday 15th September 13:58

[andygtt]

dai1983 said:

Looking into A similar layout but completely different car myself. So far I've discovered common v6 Duratecs give good bang per £.

-Mondeo st24/cougar 2.5 v6 170bhp single mass flywheel
-Mondeo st200 197bhp version of above with better Inlet and cams
-Mondeo 3.0 st220 220bhp Dual mass flywheel
-Jag x type 3.0 has 230bhp VCT, dual mass and 4x4 box
-Jag s type 3.0 has 240bhp VCT, dual mass and has a different sump due to longitudinal placement.

I've no idea if the Jag engines can be matted to a FWD box or if you could put an St200 solid flywheel on it. Apparently the Jag engines have direct action buckets as opposed to the finger followers of the Ford versions allowing it to rev higher with aftermarket ECUs. The 3.0 engines are taller due to higher Inlet manifolds but the st200 has been made to work and decreasing overall height.

All the above engines have the same gearbox stud pattern (essentially same block) and thus the ST220 box fits them.

The Jag V6 is exactly the same block as the ST220, the ST220 box bolts straight on... its a better engine out the box however I have tuned the ST220 engine to over 700bhp and 8000rpm reliably.
For my turbo application the ST220 engine was the best choice the others would not have the same power potential (seen the ST200 engine taken to 500bhp however).

[thecarbuilder246]

Does the focus mk2 rs gearbox comes with a limited slip diff fitted as standard? My local ford dealer says it does although the part numbers for the casings aren't the same as the st gearbox which doesn't have it. He says a ltd slip can be fitted to the st box but it ain't £heap. He tell's me the mondeo box has plastic selectors to.

[andygtt]

thecarbuilder246 said:

Does the focus mk2 rs gearbox comes with a limited slip diff fitted as standard? My local ford dealer says it does although the part numbers for the casings aren't the same as the st gearbox which doesn't have it. He says a ltd slip can be fitted to the st box but it ain't £heap. He tell's me the mondeo box has plastic selectors to.

The Focus RS Mk2 has as std a Quaife LSD... the ST box does not.... the RS box is £3k wish right?
The RS has different size drive shafts to the ST or any volvo (remember these are volvo boxs)... Ive looked into this in detail recently as an option to upgrade if/when my box breaks.

An ST225 LSD is available from Quaife or 3J for around £800, unless you are going for over 400bhp the ST is the cheapest option.

The plastic selectors on the Mondeo box is not an issue... Id go with one of the Focus boxs


Are you going for a new Gearbox?
What power are you going for?

[thecarbuilder246]

I doubt it would be a new box. Local ford dealer is quoting 2.5k for a new rs box and a ford reconditioned one at 1.5k. But I have a gearbox guru who can rebuild virtually any gearbox so I'll most likely source a good second hand one.Might even go for focus st225 as a ford rebuild comes in a £500 ish on an exchange basis.
Looking for about 250/300bhp to start with but with scope to increase as funds become available.
I have a spare cossie block but really need a shot gearbox to see how thing fit together before spending big money.

[dai1983]

andygtt said:

All the above engines have the same gearbox stud pattern (essentially same block) and thus the ST220 box fits them.

The Jag V6 is exactly the same block as the ST220, the ST220 box bolts straight on... its a better engine out the box however I have tuned the ST220 engine to over 700bhp and 8000rpm reliably.
For my turbo application the ST220 engine was the best choice the others would not have the same power potential (seen the ST200 engine taken to 500bhp however).

Cheers for that. It was actually your posts on the Locost forum praising the AJ30 that had me starting to consider it. Do you happen to know if the solid Mondeo V6 flywheels, starters and pre-st220 boxes bolt up to the Jaguar unit? Do the Jag engines have any other benefits over the Ford items?

I can't see me needing more than 240bhp in my plans as the theme is bang per buck. I'd also like 5-600kg total weight too and as such I've been considering the 2.3 Mazda 6 Duratec at 160 odd bhp as I'd get a single donor and they come with single mass flywheels. I started out thinking 1.7 puma donor but I'd be looking at about a grand to get to 150bhp so started looking at other options. The 2.3 would be a compromise of power and weight but I know I'd always be thinking about 240bhp v6 engines!


Back on topic:

Mazda 3 MPS box should handle the power and has an LSD as standard?

[andygtt]

As I say I bought a good ST225 box for £75.... you can get a broken one for less, for your application a cheap ST225 box with open diff is a cheap starting option that is proven will take the power. I have actually seen new versions of it for sale for around 1k.

[andygtt]

dai1983 said:

andygtt said:

All the above engines have the same gearbox stud pattern (essentially same block) and thus the ST220 box fits them.

The Jag V6 is exactly the same block as the ST220, the ST220 box bolts straight on... its a better engine out the box however I have tuned the ST220 engine to over 700bhp and 8000rpm reliably.
For my turbo application the ST220 engine was the best choice the others would not have the same power potential (seen the ST200 engine taken to 500bhp however).

Cheers for that. It was actually your posts on the Locost forum praising the AJ30 that had me starting to consider it. Do you happen to know if the solid Mondeo V6 flywheels, starters and pre-st220 boxes bolt up to the Jaguar unit? Do the Jag engines have any other benefits over the Ford items?

I can't see me needing more than 240bhp in my plans as the theme is bang per buck. I'd also like 5-600kg total weight too and as such I've been considering the 2.3 Mazda 6 Duratec at 160 odd bhp as I'd get a single donor and they come with single mass flywheels. I started out thinking 1.7 puma donor but I'd be looking at about a grand to get to 150bhp so started looking at other options. The 2.3 would be a compromise of power and weight but I know I'd always be thinking about 240bhp v6 engines!

The Aj30 is a better engine out the box than the ST220 because of cams etc.... however the heads on the ST220 are better for ultimate power, but we are talking silly power here. I used to think about changing to the AJ30 heads on my car, but now I know more I see it as a step back as while they can rev higher they don't flow as well when ported apparently.

With a set of throttle bodies and decent mapping the AJ30 will apparently make 300bhp NA (I have been designing my own ITBs and carbon plenum for the ST220 and would fit the AJ30) .... the ford ST220 box and flywheels etc bolts straight up to the AJ30 as its an identical block and crank. I prefer the ST220 box as its a 6 speeder and the 5 speed box's are harder to get in decent ratios for my application and take less power (I swopped my 5 speed out for a 6 speed years back).

I do actually have a second hand Quaife LSD for a ST220 box I would part with... slap this in a stock ST220 box and it will take 350bhp all day long.

[dai1983]

andygtt said:

The Aj30 is a better engine out the box than the ST220 because of cams etc.... however the heads on the ST220 are better for ultimate power, but we are talking silly power here. I used to think about changing to the AJ30 heads on my car, but now I know more I see it as a step back as while they can rev higher they don't flow as well when ported apparently.

With a set of throttle bodies and decent mapping the AJ30 will apparently make 300bhp NA (I have been designing my own ITBs and carbon plenum for the ST220 and would fit the AJ30) .... the ford ST220 box and flywheels etc bolts straight up to the AJ30 as its an identical block and crank. I prefer the ST220 box as its a 6 speeder and the 5 speed box's are harder to get in decent ratios for my application and take less power (I swopped my 5 speed out for a 6 speed years back).

I do actually have a second hand Quaife LSD for a ST220 box I would part with... slap this in a stock ST220 box and it will take 350bhp all day long.

Again cheers for the reply. One thing I've noticed with some of the v6 Duratecs is that some have Oval shaped inlet ports which I guess would be harder to make a manifold for? I doubt it would matter in my case as like I said 240bhp would be plenty and I could use the standard ECU etc.

Is there any difference in the earlier S-type jag 3.0 engines compared to the later ones? The earlier ones seem to be cheap as chips but I've read conflicting details about power levels, VCT on not etc.

After your advice I look at st220 boxes and they are, as you say, nice and cheap!

[thecarbuilder246]

I have managed to source a "spares or repairs" focus st gearbox for 65 quid delivered! Looking at LSD's they are listed at around £700 ish new but they fit both the mondeo st220 box and the focus st box. Are these the same box or same outer casing with different internals? And if the casing is the same to both models are they the same casing on the focus rs? I have seen focus rs gearboxes with a warranty for £800.
My thinking is get the st box to work then source a focus rs box as these come with a lsd as standard.
I believe the rs uses bigger drive shafts?

how much for your LSD?

[andygtt]

You must have bought a Mk1 focus box as the focus ST225 is a totally different box to the ST220 so diff def won't fit them.

If it's the same box as the ST 220 just with different ratios then you will need an LSD, no idea if mine would fit.

My point with the ST 225 box was that it was a fit and forget without need for mods to run 300bhp :-)... I bought a good one for £75!