forgotten kits
Discussion
which kits can you remember that you think should have done better
I have two in mind, one was called the 'cypher'I think, which used reliant kitten running gear and another that I can't remember ( no pun intended ) looked like an elan but had fixed headlights a la frogeye sprite, I know it sounds awful but it could have been sorted.
any others?
I have two in mind, one was called the 'cypher'I think, which used reliant kitten running gear and another that I can't remember ( no pun intended ) looked like an elan but had fixed headlights a la frogeye sprite, I know it sounds awful but it could have been sorted.
any others?
For me, the Ferrari Daytona Spyder replicas. Stunningly gorgeous but a bit expensive at the time so didn't catch on.
The Reflex always seems to get a mention in these sorts of discussions but personally thought it was a bit of an ugbug.
Most of the cars of way back when didn't survive for a reason though, things move on and times change and with it quality of fit and finish, a lot of these cars wouldn't stand up to todays cars.
Personally I can't understand the Mini Marcos coming back into production as an example other than for supplying spares. Thats a true love it or hate it car.
John
The Reflex always seems to get a mention in these sorts of discussions but personally thought it was a bit of an ugbug.
Most of the cars of way back when didn't survive for a reason though, things move on and times change and with it quality of fit and finish, a lot of these cars wouldn't stand up to todays cars.
Personally I can't understand the Mini Marcos coming back into production as an example other than for supplying spares. Thats a true love it or hate it car.
John
hal 1 said:
looked like an elan but had fixed headlights a la frogeye sprite, I know it sounds awful but it could have been sorted.
If it's the one I'm thinking of you'll find it's been recently revived, but can't remember who by.
Besides the fixed headlights it also has Mk 1 Mini external door hinges, which always looked naff.
grahambell said:
looked like an elan but had fixed headlights a la frogeye sprite, I know it sounds awful but it could have been sorted.
If it's the one I'm thinking of you'll find it's been recently revived, but can't remember who by.
Besides the fixed headlights it also has Mk 1 Mini external door hinges, which always looked naff.
That would have been the Elysee Sprint. A it was a truly awful device: external door hinges, ladder frame chassis, and 1256cc Vauxhall Chevette mechanicals.
It could, as Hal quite rightly says, have been sorted. A couple of gallons of petrol and a match would have done the job.
What about the Montana by Carlton? It was a Pantera GTS replica that I don't know whether made production - saw a rough at Stoneleigh back in late 80s I think.
With values of decent Panteras as high as they are plus their rarity, I'm surprised no one's consdiered cloning it as a classic alternative to all the Lambos.....
>> Edited by smash on Wednesday 27th April 12:25
With values of decent Panteras as high as they are plus their rarity, I'm surprised no one's consdiered cloning it as a classic alternative to all the Lambos.....
>> Edited by smash on Wednesday 27th April 12:25
hal 1 said:
elysee, hmm lets see now, fixed lights,ladder chassis,
chevette running gear, mini door hinges, fergs right petrol and matches make the perfect combination for it.
funny how time fades the memory isnt it?
Fixed lights? like all modern cars?
Ladder chassis? Probably better than most spaceframes, don't be taken in by the spaceframe hype, most of them are NOT stiffer or lighter than a well designed ladder frame.
Chevette running gear? Not good but then this was an eighties kit and the chevette was a cheap donor at the time.
Still I'll give you the styling effect of those fixed lights was duff.
What happened to the Evante, a much more convincing Elan clone? Are the body moulds still around?
Or the great looking Caterham 21? With an Elan style chassis this car would be even better. Maybe Caterham would sell the moulds?
And the Midtech? Great idea, a cheap middy, but it just disappeared.
I believe Stuart Taylor has the moulds of the Midtec.
I read somewhere, that they were working on a bike engine Midtec.
The styling would need an update.............but the chassis is supposedly good.
I would like to see one at Stoneleigh this year...
What happened to the Minari, I thought it was a nice looking kitcar, with that sweet Alfa Romeo boxer engine
Italo
I read somewhere, that they were working on a bike engine Midtec.
The styling would need an update.............but the chassis is supposedly good.
I would like to see one at Stoneleigh this year...
What happened to the Minari, I thought it was a nice looking kitcar, with that sweet Alfa Romeo boxer engine
Italo
fuoriserie said:
What happened to the Minari, I thought it was a nice looking kitcar, with that sweet Alfa Romeo boxer engine
I was watching 'Waterworld' on Discovery the other day and narrow-boat-dweller Alex Lester from Radio 2 was on and he was driving a delightful light blue Minari.
I think the GP spyder might well have died too.
Shame it was never developed further than the VW Beetle chassis.
A mid mounted Alfa or Subaru boxer engine might have worked well in a simple round tube ladder frame but with double wishbones to bring the handling up to scratch.
Does anyone know what happened to Evante in the end?
Shame it was never developed further than the VW Beetle chassis.
A mid mounted Alfa or Subaru boxer engine might have worked well in a simple round tube ladder frame but with double wishbones to bring the handling up to scratch.
Does anyone know what happened to Evante in the end?
cymtriks said:
I think the GP spyder might well have died too.
Shame it was never developed further than the VW Beetle chassis.
A mid mounted Alfa or Subaru boxer engine might have worked well in a simple round tube ladder frame but with double wishbones to bring the handling up to scratch.
Does anyone know what happened to Evante in the end?
Evante went bust - fortunately after splitting from Vegantune, so they didn't take Vegantune with them. Never undertood the concept, anyway - who's going to pay that sort of money for an Elan copy with corrupted styling when you can have a genuine, prettier Elan in perfect condition for a lot less money?
The rear spoiler and bolt-on Ford alloys on the Evante were truly
If you must have a Lotus replica, how about the Encore 95?
You have an unhealthy obsession with ladder frame chassis, by the way, Cymtriks! A good ladder frames can be adequately stiff and strong, but they will never approach the stiffness:weight ratio of a properly designed spaceframe, let alone a good monocoque!
I always quite fancied making one of those as a fun car 
Martin_s said:
Evante went bust - fortunately after splitting from Vegantune, so they didn't take Vegantune with them. Never undertood the concept, anyway - who's going to pay that sort of money for an Elan copy with corrupted styling when you can have a genuine, prettier Elan in perfect condition for a lot less money?
The rear spoiler and bolt-on Ford alloys on the Evante were truly
If you must have a Lotus replica, how about the Encore 95?
Yes, I know that Evante went bust but I'd have thought there there would still be a kit car market for it. I agree on the spoiler and wheels but these could easily be fixed. I still think it had potential as a kit. Perhaps what was really required was a Caterham 21 body on an Evante chassis!
I can't find any mention of an Encore 95. What on earth was it?
Martin_s said:
You have an unhealthy obsession with ladder frame chassis, by the way, Cymtriks! A good ladder frames can be adequately stiff and strong, but they will never approach the stiffness:weight ratio of a properly designed spaceframe, let alone a good monocoque!
Really?
I'd argue that the kit car scene has an unhealthy obsession with ill designed spaceframes and spouting hype about their merits.
The majority of kit car spaceframes ARE NOT stiffer for their weight than a simple X braced ladder. In addition to this the spaceframe is more expensive, more complex and more likely to restrict engine bays and doors.
If you have the knowledge/experience or access to FEA and you can justify or work around the complexity, cost and access issues then fine, design yourself a spaceframe. Otherwise I'd suggest that the humble ladder is a much under rated option.
Of course, for marketing reasons, it may still be better to design a spaceframe anyway...
The Encore 95 was a perfect visual replica of the original 50's Lotus Elite, built onto a modified version of the Spyder replacement Elan backbone spaceframe chassis, using a Ford CHV engine.
Apart from the poor choice of engine, it was a very appealing car. The guy who ran the project was an engineer and technical illustrator, but had to abandon it when he went to work for Lotus full time...obviously there was a conflict of interest building Lotus replicas when you work at Hethel! I'd be first in the queue for an updated version with a more suitable engine (Mazda Renesis or Rover K-series, perhaps?).
I'd be interested to see the figures on which you have based your judgement of the superiority of ladder frame weight:stiffness versus spaceframe.
There are certainly some very badly designed spaceframes on the kit car market, but then there are some very badly designed ladder frames, too.
Stress analysis computer programs specifically designed for spaceframe design are readily available (some free of charge). In any event I have always found that once you understand the basic principles, it is just as informative, and much more fun, to build a balsa model of the spaceframe to identify weak points in the first instance; stress analysis can be used later to estimate a figure for the torsional stifness before fabricating the full-sized chassis, if required.
I'e been involved with chassis/suspension development on a couple of ladder chassis competition cars, and the actual, measured torsional stiffness of the chassis was pretty dismal until it was braced by a semi-monocoque bodyshell and a bloody great roll cage.
I agree that ladder frames have benefits in terms of cost and access, but these are not usually priorities for performance-biased kit cars.
Personally, I like the backbone spaceframe as a solution, but of course side impact protection can be very poor and the bodyshell has to be stiff enough in its own right dispel some of the advantage.
Apart from the poor choice of engine, it was a very appealing car. The guy who ran the project was an engineer and technical illustrator, but had to abandon it when he went to work for Lotus full time...obviously there was a conflict of interest building Lotus replicas when you work at Hethel! I'd be first in the queue for an updated version with a more suitable engine (Mazda Renesis or Rover K-series, perhaps?).
I'd be interested to see the figures on which you have based your judgement of the superiority of ladder frame weight:stiffness versus spaceframe.
There are certainly some very badly designed spaceframes on the kit car market, but then there are some very badly designed ladder frames, too.
Stress analysis computer programs specifically designed for spaceframe design are readily available (some free of charge). In any event I have always found that once you understand the basic principles, it is just as informative, and much more fun, to build a balsa model of the spaceframe to identify weak points in the first instance; stress analysis can be used later to estimate a figure for the torsional stifness before fabricating the full-sized chassis, if required.
I'e been involved with chassis/suspension development on a couple of ladder chassis competition cars, and the actual, measured torsional stiffness of the chassis was pretty dismal until it was braced by a semi-monocoque bodyshell and a bloody great roll cage.
I agree that ladder frames have benefits in terms of cost and access, but these are not usually priorities for performance-biased kit cars.
Personally, I like the backbone spaceframe as a solution, but of course side impact protection can be very poor and the bodyshell has to be stiff enough in its own right dispel some of the advantage.
Some numbers from FEA
The "book" Locost chassis
181 lbs and 1180 ftlbs per degree
A simple X braced ladder frame to the profile of the Locost chassis in 4x2 14gauge
129 lbs and 1355 ftlbs per degree
additional structures will be required to support the body work but these could also contribute to stiffness thus-
approx 180lbs and approx 1500 to 2000 ftlbs per degree
The "book" Locost chassis but with 18 gauge boxed in tunnel, triangulated front and double Y braced engine bay (replacing tube R in the book)
174lbs and 2683 ftlbs per degree
So there you have my case. A good spaceframe is easily best but the actual design, to the book, as produced to fit under hundreds of Seven clones, is less stiff for its weight than an X braced ladder.
Most kit car spaceframes lack the right triangulation necessary to better a ladder. Put the triangulation in and you have a good chassis. Put it in the wrong places or leave it out and you would be better off with a simpler and cheaper ladder.
What projects were you working on with those balsa models of yours? It sounds like an interesting job you had!
Anyway back on topic.....
GTM Midas and Rossa ( I think they were abandoned in favour of the Libra )
Banham 130 ( well it soon will be as the supply of old Skodas dries up )
Did anyone buy up the Encore project? Sounds like a great idea for a kit.
The "book" Locost chassis
181 lbs and 1180 ftlbs per degree
A simple X braced ladder frame to the profile of the Locost chassis in 4x2 14gauge
129 lbs and 1355 ftlbs per degree
additional structures will be required to support the body work but these could also contribute to stiffness thus-
approx 180lbs and approx 1500 to 2000 ftlbs per degree
The "book" Locost chassis but with 18 gauge boxed in tunnel, triangulated front and double Y braced engine bay (replacing tube R in the book)
174lbs and 2683 ftlbs per degree
So there you have my case. A good spaceframe is easily best but the actual design, to the book, as produced to fit under hundreds of Seven clones, is less stiff for its weight than an X braced ladder.
Most kit car spaceframes lack the right triangulation necessary to better a ladder. Put the triangulation in and you have a good chassis. Put it in the wrong places or leave it out and you would be better off with a simpler and cheaper ladder.
What projects were you working on with those balsa models of yours? It sounds like an interesting job you had!
Anyway back on topic.....
GTM Midas and Rossa ( I think they were abandoned in favour of the Libra )
Banham 130 ( well it soon will be as the supply of old Skodas dries up )
Did anyone buy up the Encore project? Sounds like a great idea for a kit.
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