Future Middy Coupe Locost Design
Discussion
Opening up a new thread, using Stuart Mills thoughts and ideas, on the design of a Locost Middy Coupe, to update the R3 design.
(QUOTE)
Due to the unconventional styling of the R3 it was as not a big hit and is now only available to special order.
I always try to come up with designs that are easily distinguishable from main stream cars. If I was to make the R3 a two seater, increase the nose length and fit front hinged doors it would be comparable to an MR2. Then we look at costs and the Japs win every time. True we can sell the performance and handling aspects which walk all over MX5's etc but so do most kit cars.
Make a car extreme like the Rocket and sales flood in, try to compete with Mazda and you have an uphill battle.
So I reckon that if we can produce a kit that is a true performance machine but practical as in it has a roof and doors, then produce it at a locost, we may have something. That said, introduce all the above elements and get the styling wrong and the low price becomes irrelavant.
Next move then is to redesign the R3. Make it a 2 seat coupe with luggage space and a sliding hard top. Keep the price right and base it on a Mundaneo and it might work.
Ah but again even if its cheap and it performs it has to look great and not too similar to Mr Toyotas cars as a used MR2 is often cheaper than a kit.
I would say styling is of paramount importance.
The question is what should it look like. Maybe a new thread with the aim of attracting vibrant discussion on a future middy coupe locost theme would iron this one out. I will be looking and I will put my hand in my pocket and build a prototype if positive feedback comes through. I wont be the only one either as I know of a few kit firms who are looking for direction.
Regards Stuart
end QUOTE)
(QUOTE)
Due to the unconventional styling of the R3 it was as not a big hit and is now only available to special order.
I always try to come up with designs that are easily distinguishable from main stream cars. If I was to make the R3 a two seater, increase the nose length and fit front hinged doors it would be comparable to an MR2. Then we look at costs and the Japs win every time. True we can sell the performance and handling aspects which walk all over MX5's etc but so do most kit cars.
Make a car extreme like the Rocket and sales flood in, try to compete with Mazda and you have an uphill battle.
So I reckon that if we can produce a kit that is a true performance machine but practical as in it has a roof and doors, then produce it at a locost, we may have something. That said, introduce all the above elements and get the styling wrong and the low price becomes irrelavant.
Next move then is to redesign the R3. Make it a 2 seat coupe with luggage space and a sliding hard top. Keep the price right and base it on a Mundaneo and it might work.
Ah but again even if its cheap and it performs it has to look great and not too similar to Mr Toyotas cars as a used MR2 is often cheaper than a kit.
I would say styling is of paramount importance.
The question is what should it look like. Maybe a new thread with the aim of attracting vibrant discussion on a future middy coupe locost theme would iron this one out. I will be looking and I will put my hand in my pocket and build a prototype if positive feedback comes through. I wont be the only one either as I know of a few kit firms who are looking for direction.
Regards Stuart
end QUOTE)
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 31st October 10:15
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 31st October 10:16
Stuart's right - if kit car manufacturers try to compete head to head with something available from the mainstream (whether new or used) they're going to struggle badly.
At one time it would work, as shown by the success of cars like the Ginetta G26 series and Quantum saloons. But back then they were competing with simpler mass produced rivals that didn't have all the power steering, air con and other stuff that people want these days.
Agree that attractive styling is important. People not liking the looks can kill a car even if it drives well as shown by the FBS Census.
On the other hand, even really good looking kit cars like the Phantom and AM Imola/EX2 mid-engined coupes have only sold a few over several years. Good cars, but again they're basically offering what you can get from the mainstream with old MR2s or Boxsters.
Look at what survives in the kit car industry today and it tends to be driver focused track day/weekend toy type cars that you just can't get from the big manufacturers, ranging from budget 7 types cars up to supercar killing Ultimas. Plus of course numerous (too many!) Cobra replicas.
So I think it'd be a big risk for any kit car manufacturer to stray far from that formula. Especially when you bear in mind that even millionaire-backed TVR and Marcos could no longer produce more mainstream sports cars profitably.
That's not to say there still isn't room for fresh thinking as the huge amount of interest generated by the Impreza based Murtaya has shown.
But again, it's not really pitched against any mainstream rivals.
So maybe there could be a market for a mid-engined V6 coupe, but I think it needs to be a basic driver focused car with stunning performance rather than a plush 'everyday GT'. A sort of 'V6 Elise' perhaps.
At one time it would work, as shown by the success of cars like the Ginetta G26 series and Quantum saloons. But back then they were competing with simpler mass produced rivals that didn't have all the power steering, air con and other stuff that people want these days.
Agree that attractive styling is important. People not liking the looks can kill a car even if it drives well as shown by the FBS Census.
On the other hand, even really good looking kit cars like the Phantom and AM Imola/EX2 mid-engined coupes have only sold a few over several years. Good cars, but again they're basically offering what you can get from the mainstream with old MR2s or Boxsters.
Look at what survives in the kit car industry today and it tends to be driver focused track day/weekend toy type cars that you just can't get from the big manufacturers, ranging from budget 7 types cars up to supercar killing Ultimas. Plus of course numerous (too many!) Cobra replicas.
So I think it'd be a big risk for any kit car manufacturer to stray far from that formula. Especially when you bear in mind that even millionaire-backed TVR and Marcos could no longer produce more mainstream sports cars profitably.
That's not to say there still isn't room for fresh thinking as the huge amount of interest generated by the Impreza based Murtaya has shown.
But again, it's not really pitched against any mainstream rivals.
So maybe there could be a market for a mid-engined V6 coupe, but I think it needs to be a basic driver focused car with stunning performance rather than a plush 'everyday GT'. A sort of 'V6 Elise' perhaps.
grahambell said:
So maybe there could be a market for a mid-engined V6 coupe, but I think it needs to be a basic driver focused car with stunning performance rather than a plush 'everyday GT'. A sort of 'V6 Elise' perhaps.
GrahammI totally agree with you, it needs to be a more basic and simpler Elise, with the potential to use a v6 engine.
An exo-skeleton coupe design ?, with very little fiberglass work to manufacture.
Will show a few rough sketches soon....
fuoriserie said:
...design of a Locost Middy Coupe
I'd say that your biggest problem would be the basic incompatibility between the 'Locost' concept and the word 'Coupe'. 
There's a huge leap in design complexity from a simple 'Seven' type to a geniunely useable coupe... door design/detailing, window mechanisms, weatherproofing, windscreen integration (assuming you want something a bit more sophisticated than a flat screen), NVH, workable heating & demisting, etc.
It takes a lot more detail design and development to get all these things right, hence not so well suited to the low budget, scratch-built approach.
grahambell said:
On the other hand, even really good looking kit cars like the Phantom and AM Imola/EX2 mid-engined coupes have only sold a few over several years.
So maybe there could be a market for a mid-engined V6 coupe, but I think it needs to be a basic driver focused car with stunning performance rather than a plush 'everyday GT'. A sort of 'V6 Elise' perhaps.
After driving my 2.0 AM EX2 for 20,000 miles I came to the same conclusion.So maybe there could be a market for a mid-engined V6 coupe, but I think it needs to be a basic driver focused car with stunning performance rather than a plush 'everyday GT'. A sort of 'V6 Elise' perhaps.
It is now getting a 300+BHP V6 and ex touring car sequential box. If the engine builder ever pulls his finger out.
Along with all the other changes I have made it will pretty much fit the description of a 'V6 Exige'.
All of the mods I have made have been fed back to the factory. Hopefully with a bit of updating they could start actually selling some. A real shame they didn't sell many the first time around, with some of the initial bugs ironed out it was a fantastic car.
I quite agree, locost and coupe dont easily sit hand in hand.
Maximising the use of donor components helps but can lead to compromise. No one wants a sports car that handles like a Mundaneo so out go the bouncy bits. As you say doors and windows can be costly and donor heaters are usually clumsy.
That said a low cost coupe is possible. The R3 has a sliding roof that offers ventilation & access without wind-ups, hinges or fancy locks. It needs a face lift but its very practical in terms of security and weather protection. Screen was £64 (MX6)
Double coil overs and bones with adjustable shocks are desirable and dont have to cost a fortune. Bushes and ball joints and rear uprights to take donor shafts are not dear either. Add a cheap heater from under a coach seat, retain the donor engine management and produce a one piece body on a stiff chassis and I reckon shes on the road for 6K. A Mondeo can be as low as £50 these days and will give up its 1.6-3.0 engine/tranny/diff, drive shafts, hubs, brakes, column, servo and pedals, wipers, pump/fuel sender, radiator/fan, gear lever, handbrake, instruments if you like, the list goes on. Now then, should it look sharpe, agreesive, curvy, sexy, low, wide, mean? Maybe more than one of the above. I cant wait to see Italo's sketches.
There's a huge leap in design complexity from a simple 'Seven' type to a geniunely useable coupe... door design/detailing, window mechanisms, weatherproofing, windscreen integration (assuming you want something a bit more sophisticated than a flat screen), NVH, workable heating & demisting, etc.
It takes a lot more detail design and development to get all these things right, hence not so well suited to the low budget, scratch-built approach.
Maximising the use of donor components helps but can lead to compromise. No one wants a sports car that handles like a Mundaneo so out go the bouncy bits. As you say doors and windows can be costly and donor heaters are usually clumsy.
That said a low cost coupe is possible. The R3 has a sliding roof that offers ventilation & access without wind-ups, hinges or fancy locks. It needs a face lift but its very practical in terms of security and weather protection. Screen was £64 (MX6)
Double coil overs and bones with adjustable shocks are desirable and dont have to cost a fortune. Bushes and ball joints and rear uprights to take donor shafts are not dear either. Add a cheap heater from under a coach seat, retain the donor engine management and produce a one piece body on a stiff chassis and I reckon shes on the road for 6K. A Mondeo can be as low as £50 these days and will give up its 1.6-3.0 engine/tranny/diff, drive shafts, hubs, brakes, column, servo and pedals, wipers, pump/fuel sender, radiator/fan, gear lever, handbrake, instruments if you like, the list goes on. Now then, should it look sharpe, agreesive, curvy, sexy, low, wide, mean? Maybe more than one of the above. I cant wait to see Italo's sketches.
Sam_68 said:
fuoriserie said:
...design of a Locost Middy Coupe
I'd say that your biggest problem would be the basic incompatibility between the 'Locost' concept and the word 'Coupe'. There's a huge leap in design complexity from a simple 'Seven' type to a geniunely useable coupe... door design/detailing, window mechanisms, weatherproofing, windscreen integration (assuming you want something a bit more sophisticated than a flat screen), NVH, workable heating & demisting, etc.
It takes a lot more detail design and development to get all these things right, hence not so well suited to the low budget, scratch-built approach.
Don't forget that it's now possible to pick up an Elise for under £8k.
OK, you can't have a V6 Elise, but I don't think that's going to be a big enough draw to tempt many people out of a Lotus product - with all that emotes, into a kit car, with the associated 'kit car' connotations (not trying to spark debate on that subject, but we've all know some people's attitude to the words 'kit car').
For me, it either has to look like an 80s LM car (Ultima, Kellforms) to appeal to people's desire to be in a racer, or be endowed with enough power to obliterate anything pass production. if it's a similarly powered and looking car to the Elise, it's not going to sell, is it?
OK, you can't have a V6 Elise, but I don't think that's going to be a big enough draw to tempt many people out of a Lotus product - with all that emotes, into a kit car, with the associated 'kit car' connotations (not trying to spark debate on that subject, but we've all know some people's attitude to the words 'kit car').
For me, it either has to look like an 80s LM car (Ultima, Kellforms) to appeal to people's desire to be in a racer, or be endowed with enough power to obliterate anything pass production. if it's a similarly powered and looking car to the Elise, it's not going to sell, is it?
Well I started soft with the design of the new middy coupe.......a restyling, with a more aggresive design inspired by superbikes...
These are very, very rough sketches.....I'm working on two more different dsigns,so this is just a taste of few more to come...
I agree with the comments above, that making a locost middy coupe is a very hard task, but it is a nice challenge to work with, and in meeting the design brief could make a n interesting final design.
I used the new Mondeo front units.....more to come, but expect something different, maybe a litle less Locost.........
These are very, very rough sketches.....I'm working on two more different dsigns,so this is just a taste of few more to come...
I agree with the comments above, that making a locost middy coupe is a very hard task, but it is a nice challenge to work with, and in meeting the design brief could make a n interesting final design.
I used the new Mondeo front units.....more to come, but expect something different, maybe a litle less Locost.........
Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 3rd November 15:32
The first one of the four has the most appeal to me. A hint of Raffo Belva at the rear, shades of Enzo at the front. I particularly like the side panel that reveals the chassis detail beneath and the vents at the base of the windscreen.
It is also the only one that doesn't look vaguely reminiscent of a Smart Roadster!
I can't see why this couldn't be done to a budget, apart from the bodywork.
And the glass.
What about a Roto Moulded one piece interior, including the dash, bulkheads, seats and tunnel? Does anyone know the cost of Roto Moulded parts? I recall seeing a pseudo three-wheeler kit with a Roto Moulded interior. Not aesthetically perfect but possibly acceptable on a driver focussed machine.
Geoff.
It is also the only one that doesn't look vaguely reminiscent of a Smart Roadster!
I can't see why this couldn't be done to a budget, apart from the bodywork.
And the glass.
What about a Roto Moulded one piece interior, including the dash, bulkheads, seats and tunnel? Does anyone know the cost of Roto Moulded parts? I recall seeing a pseudo three-wheeler kit with a Roto Moulded interior. Not aesthetically perfect but possibly acceptable on a driver focussed machine.
Geoff.
spyder dryver said:
The first one of the four has the most appeal to me. A hint of Raffo Belva at the rear, shades of Enzo at the front. I particularly like the side panel that reveals the chassis detail beneath and the vents at the base of the windscreen.
I can't see why this couldn't be done to a budget, apart from the bodywork.
And the glass.
I agree with you, the first one is pretty basic in its design, the windshield is exacty the same unit used by mev on their R3 kit.I can't see why this couldn't be done to a budget, apart from the bodywork.
And the glass.
The sides door openings are moulded polycarbonate, just like the old Dax Kamala units.
Looking good.
I had a quick look at the MEV site I guess you mean the screen from the R3? http://www.mevltd.co.uk/images/R3%20FRONT.jpg
I had a quick look at the MEV site I guess you mean the screen from the R3? http://www.mevltd.co.uk/images/R3%20FRONT.jpg
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