eco cars

[Joe T]

Yep your right, the original design has a few improvements over that car, headlight covers, full windscreen. Also a Lower seating position. On the prototype there was a roof canopy also.

We have also reduced the weight of the body during our development, although the windscreen and surround will bring that back up (If I ever get it finished!!)

But thought it a reasonable representation of what a bog atandard 1.4K series will do real world figures. Theres always room for improvement..

[Sam_68]

Yes, for a 1.4 petrol engine, it's good.

But (at risk of being tarred and feathered by the PistonHeads rednecks), if you're being serious about an Eco car, surely these days you'd want to think about bio diesel. Ex-girlfriend's Ibiza FR (130bhp 1.9 litre TDi) used to routinely return 55mpg, and that's in a normal, heavy, 5-door compact hatchback with air conditioning, electric everything and unexceptional aerodynamics.

The Cupra version of the same car gives 160bhp from a 1.9 TDi (ie. 84 bhp/litre), so a 1.2 TDi in a modern, ultra-light streamliner ought to be able to give similar performance to the original Eleven (say 130mph and 7.5 sec. to 60), whilst returning >85mpg on 'green' fuel?

Sadly, I doubt that many people on here would care...

ETA: I know the acceleration is probably dismal, but what top speed and economy does Friend Wood get out of Tryane II? IIRC, he could top the ton and it must be over 60+mpg from what, 20-odd horsepower?

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 9th January 22:48

[Joe T]

In his own words

The Tryane took 2000 hrs over 1yr 11mnths of spare(haha)time.
450kg
cd 0.19
101.75 mph on 26 bhp.......68mpg touring,yes a good tool. Regards,Friend

[fuoriserie]

Sam_68 said:

Yes, for a 1.4 petrol engine, it's good.

But (at risk of being tarred and feathered by the PistonHeads rednecks

Sadly, I doubt that many people on here would care...

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 9th January 22:48

I actually think it to be a very interesting niche, a modern lightweight Turbodiesel, with E85, on a streamlined modern update of the lotus Eleven could be a nice project to work on.

You could still keep the fun and still run around on track days, without worrying about your cash being drained by the rise of fuel.

I'ts almost a given that fuel prices in the future are going to go up, more than down, so a kitcar that can still be fun and stylish, without it being thirsty would be a nice proposition to work on.......

Preferred kitcar chassis to work on ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:21

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:22

[fuoriserie]

better a front engine rear drive Lotus Eleven design update project , or a new mid-engine design ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 12:50

[fuoriserie]

nothing on TV to watch tonight........a very rough sketch

[Joe T]

Thats a nice design, lots of little features like the wheel spats, Kam tail, even the rear arches give it a retro look.

I did here of a project using smart car running gear, I think it was Jevron looking at a fibreglass chassis tub.

In the states they are starting to look at Ally Honeycomb for some of these sorts of projects.

My only concern with future projects is how much further the electrics/electronics are going in all these modern engines, at the moment its still a bit of work synching up all the devices, but when you hear about some of the stuff being developed it makes you wonder how long you will be able to transplant stuff from production cars.

[fuoriserie]

Joe T said:

Thats a nice design, lots of little features like the wheel spats, Kam tail, even the rear arches give it a retro look.

I did here of a project using smart car running gear, I think it was Jevron looking at a fibreglass chassis tub.

In the states they are starting to look at Ally Honeycomb for some of these sorts of projects.

My only concern with future projects is how much further the electrics/electronics are going in all these modern engines, at the moment its still a bit of work synching up all the devices, but when you hear about some of the stuff being developed it makes you wonder how long you will be able to transplant stuff from production cars.

Thanks Joe,

was thinking about something simple with a retro design influence.

Michalak C7 is manufacturing a mid-engine chassis with a smart engine.....or we could try the Sylva R1ot chassis for a middy ?.

As a seven inspired chassis, I wouldn't mind the new body laying over the Raw Striker chassis....

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:33

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:34

[Gompo]

Not that it would be particularly difficult, but I'd guess a change in gear ratios or atleast an over-drive in top would be worth it?

Smart engine might be quite a good base if you could do away or improve the gearbox. How about one of the Fiat FIRE engines? Quite economical and should be quite a large amount available cheaply..

Always going to be difficult to appeal to non-Kit enthusiasts unless you can make it look professional at a reasonable price - I'd expect it'd need to be less than £10k with new parts in a nice looking body for it to work.

[fuoriserie]

Gompo said:

How about one of the Fiat FIRE engines? Quite economical and should be quite a large amount available cheaply..

Always going to be difficult to appeal to non-Kit enthusiasts unless you can make it look professional at a reasonable price - I'd expect it'd need to be less than £10k with new parts in a nice looking body for it to work.

I agree with you.....the Fiat fire engine could be a very interesting option, just need the chassis for it.....

[Joe T]

How about a backbone chassis like the Lotus Europa, or fibreglass monocoque.

Just something different..........

[stig mills]

Hi Italo, you could have a look at www.smartsrus.com/srus/zonta.htm ,it may look familiar but this is a Smart car based turnkey only car. It has ABS, traction control and weighs about the same as a fag packet.I reckon it would be good for 60mpg as its alot lighter than the smart, regards Stuart
P.S put my R3 project on ebay today under "kit car"

I did here of a project using smart car running gear, I think it was Jevron looking at a fibreglass chassis tub.

Michalak C7 is manufacturing a mid-engine chassis with a smart engine.....or we could try the Sylva R1ot chassis for a middy ?.

As a seven inspired chassis, I wouldn't mind the new body laying over the Raw Striker chassis....

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:33

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:34

[/quote]

[hoopdiddy07]

fuoriserie said:

Sam_68 said:

Yes, for a 1.4 petrol engine, it's good.

But (at risk of being tarred and feathered by the PistonHeads rednecks

Sadly, I doubt that many people on here would care...

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 9th January 22:48

I actually think it to be a very interesting niche, a modern lightweight Turbodiesel, with E85, on a streamlined modern update of the lotus Eleven could be a nice project to work on.

You could still keep the fun and still run around on track days, without worrying about your cash being drained by the rise of fuel.

I'ts almost a given that fuel prices in the future are going to go up, more than down, so a kitcar that can still be fun and stylish, without it being thirsty would be a nice proposition to work on.......

Preferred kitcar chassis to work on ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:21

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:22

Nothing niche about eco cars. The problem is that nobody currently offers a green vehicle that takes advatage of government incentives, is cheap to buy and more importantly, does'nt look like noddy's car. The market is waiting and vast. I admire your passion for design fuoriserie what do you do for a living?

On the subject of your quick sketches; I realise that you have key styling values that you feel necessary to incorporate on your designs but I feel that in this instance, you need to start with a clean sheet. Think about minimising frontal area and drag in plan. Does it need four wheels? How many people are likley to be in it 90% of the time. Unless you cleverley better what exists already then your ideas are nothing more than styling sketches. The really difficult bit is doing all of these things and then making people fall in love with it. Tick all the boxes.

[hoopdiddy07]

stig mills said:

Hi Italo, you could have a look at www.smartsrus.com/srus/zonta.htm ,it may look familiar but this is a Smart car based turnkey only car. It has ABS, traction control and weighs about the same as a fag packet.I reckon it would be good for 60mpg as its alot lighter than the smart, regards Stuart
P.S put my R3 project on ebay today under "kit car"

I did here of a project using smart car running gear, I think it was Jevron looking at a fibreglass chassis tub.

Michalak C7 is manufacturing a mid-engine chassis with a smart engine.....or we could try the Sylva R1ot chassis for a middy ?.

As a seven inspired chassis, I wouldn't mind the new body laying over the Raw Striker chassis....

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:33

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:34

Above is an example of how not to do it. The standard of styling and the regurgitation of other companies blueprints is what continues to make the kit car industry look like a joke. Just to clarify that statement, if you put an Ariel Atom and a Locost into a pit of stomarch acid for a couple of hours that's what you would end up with. It's yet another example of someone with no skill atempting to become a car designer. Why on earth don't these people understand that for a couple of grand, you can have a week with someone who ultimatey will make them money rather than send them into a whole world of finacial trouble.

[fuoriserie]

Joe T said:

How about a backbone chassis like the Lotus Europa, or fibreglass monocoque.

Just something different..........

I like the idea of a backbone chassis....

[fuoriserie]

hoopdiddy07 said:

fuoriserie said:

Sam_68 said:

Yes, for a 1.4 petrol engine, it's good.

But (at risk of being tarred and feathered by the PistonHeads rednecks

Sadly, I doubt that many people on here would care...

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 9th January 22:48

I actually think it to be a very interesting niche, a modern lightweight Turbodiesel, with E85, on a streamlined modern update of the lotus Eleven could be a nice project to work on.

You could still keep the fun and still run around on track days, without worrying about your cash being drained by the rise of fuel.

I'ts almost a given that fuel prices in the future are going to go up, more than down, so a kitcar that can still be fun and stylish, without it being thirsty would be a nice proposition to work on.......

Preferred kitcar chassis to work on ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:21

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:22

On the subject of your quick sketches; I realise that you have key styling values that you feel necessary to incorporate on your designs but I feel that in this instance, you need to start with a clean sheet. Think about minimising frontal area and drag in plan. Does it need four wheels? How many people are likley to be in it 90% of the time. Unless you cleverley better what exists already then your ideas are nothing more than styling sketches. The really difficult bit is doing all of these things and then making people fall in love with it. Tick all the boxes.

Hi Graja,

very good points raised and i will try to answer...
I agree with you that starting with a clean sheet of paper on any design is a plus, and given a good design brief with a set budget, would get the potential kitcar manufacture a good product.

This option, most of the time never happens, because this is a niche industry, with very limited money to invest on such projects, and the return on investment is too high of a risk for a small manufacture .

Most of the time you have a set or exhisting chassis, that can be modified somewhat to accept a different powerplant, and create a new body to cloth it with.

A safe bet for a small kitcar manufacturer would always be to invest into a known replica design, or something that has retro design overtones, because it ticks nostalgia in most of us.

Avantgarde or futuristic design is very rare, because most of the potential customers grew up with certain design influences, and are conservative in their buying habits.

If more than 70% of kits are seven clones and Cobras, at least 40yr old designs!!, there is a reason.

It would give the jitters to any new kitcar manufacture to venture in unknow territory, with a modern concept or design.

A few are trying, and admire their risk taking, and really hope they succed, because it would open up a new and future niche market.

Adrenaline, Mev, SDV, Toniq and a few others not mentioned here, are trying to come up with new products, and are trying to fill in niches not yet filled by others....

They are paving the way for the future kitcar niche market, and risking on new creative design, and a few others are on the line, but the market will decide if they are going to be successfull and will have the resouces to venture into more radical designs, in their future model planning..

Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 16th January 08:42

[fuoriserie]

hoopdiddy07 said:

fuoriserie said:

Sam_68 said:

Yes, for a 1.4 petrol engine, it's good.

But (at risk of being tarred and feathered by the PistonHeads rednecks

Sadly, I doubt that many people on here would care...

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 9th January 22:48

I actually think it to be a very interesting niche, a modern lightweight Turbodiesel, with E85, on a streamlined modern update of the lotus Eleven could be a nice project to work on.

You could still keep the fun and still run around on track days, without worrying about your cash being drained by the rise of fuel.

I'ts almost a given that fuel prices in the future are going to go up, more than down, so a kitcar that can still be fun and stylish, without it being thirsty would be a nice proposition to work on.......

Preferred kitcar chassis to work on ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:21

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:22

Nothing niche about eco cars. The problem is that nobody currently offers a green vehicle that takes advatage of government incentives, is cheap to buy and more importantly, does'nt look like noddy's car. The market is waiting and vast. I admire your passion for design fuoriserie what do you do for a living?

On the subject of your quick sketches; I realise that you have key styling values that you feel necessary to incorporate on your designs but I feel that in this instance, you need to start with a clean sheet. Think about minimising frontal area and drag in plan. Does it need four wheels? How many people are likley to be in it 90% of the time. Unless you cleverley better what exists already then your ideas are nothing more than styling sketches. .

I didn't answer this part.......

When I was younger ( many moons ago...) I worked as a car and product designer......, now that I'm old and wiser., I work in marketing, it pays the bills and gets me to work part-time on car design project without having the pressure to bring home the bacon every month!!!

We could come with a very creative design brief for this project, but do you have an investor with a load full of cash ?, we're talking about a few million pounds to come up with a radical, creative and innovative design ?

In the last few years i've been part of a few interesting design projects on a consulting basis,in Italy and the UK,( sportscar designs), but most failed when the cost of manufacturing was factored in the development, and most of the time the numbers didn't add up.....

Sportscar or kitcar manufacturing is very difficult in this very competitive car world, and most of the time it's a losing battle...

I just have fun, with a few rough sketches on paper.....and from time to time I get to work on a few fun cardesign projects, but I don't have to risk a business or livelihood on them.

I admire and respect the people that work in the kitcar industry, because they work in a very tough environment, and sometimes they are up against prejudice and derision..

Cheers
Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 16th January 09:08

Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 16th January 09:21

[stig mills]

Italo, your going to have to put a number in the corner of your sketches for me, you have done so many I'm getting confused!
Do like this one (12th Jan) Having gone through the experience of putting my R2 in the wind tunnel I think your design looks fairly drag co-efficient. A little too rounded for my personal taste but I get it. A kind of modern blast from the past maybe.
Keep up the great work, I find your posts to be the most interesting. Regards Stuart

fuoriserie said:

nothing on TV to watch tonight........a very rough sketch

[fuoriserie]

stig mills said:

Hi Italo, you could have a look at www.smartsrus.com/srus/zonta.htm ,it may look familiar but this is a Smart car based turnkey only car. It has ABS, traction control and weighs about the same as a fag packet.I reckon it would be good for 60mpg as its alot lighter than the smart, regards Stuart
P.S put my R3 project on ebay today under "kit car"

I did here of a project using smart car running gear, I think it was Jevron looking at a fibreglass chassis tub.

Michalak C7 is manufacturing a mid-engine chassis with a smart engine.....or we could try the Sylva R1ot chassis for a middy ?.

As a seven inspired chassis, I wouldn't mind the new body laying over the Raw Striker chassis....

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:33

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 11th January 08:34

Hi Stuart,
That looks like a very interesting concept, is it going to be available as a kit in the future ? and if Smart comes up with the electric hybrid engine, you have a nice niche to fill.....

Cheers
Italo

[fuoriserie]

stig mills said:

Italo, your going to have to put a number in the corner of your sketches for me, you have done so many I'm getting confused!
Do like this one (12th Jan) Having gone through the experience of putting my R2 in the wind tunnel I think your design looks fairly drag co-efficient. A little too rounded for my personal taste but I get it. A kind of modern blast from the past maybe.
Keep up the great work, I find your posts to be the most interesting. Regards Stuart

fuoriserie said:

nothing on TV to watch tonight........a very rough sketch

Stuart.....thanks.....
Will number the sketches in the future

Cheers
Italo