Twin turbo Jag V12 mid engined scratch built Zonda
Discussion
Nelibg said:
The engineering is good, the V12 engine is so cool,but if he want to make a 1:1 Zonda ,he failed. the front end is too high for Zonda.
Ah? I havent made the front end? I have only made the back, the front is only 5 cm off the road, how low would you like it?Edited by Nelibg on Thursday 5th February 17:42
Edited by Nelibg on Thursday 5th February 17:42
There was a little picture of a road going Silk cut Jaguar replica in a recent issue of retro cars covering a car show somewhere....lovely it was indeed...I can`t help think that your chassis & engine combination would lend itself to something similar spectacuarly well & look the preverbial million dollers. I`m well aware that you have your own ideas however so take no notice of my suggestion.
Anyway..3 cheers for the Mid mounted V12 turbo....best wishes on the rest of it`s completion.
Anyway..3 cheers for the Mid mounted V12 turbo....best wishes on the rest of it`s completion.
FM said:
There was a little picture of a road going Silk cut Jaguar replica in a recent issue of retro cars covering a car show somewhere....lovely it was indeed...I can`t help think that your chassis & engine combination would lend itself to something similar spectacuarly well & look the preverbial million dollers. I`m well aware that you have your own ideas however so take no notice of my suggestion.
Anyway..3 cheers for the Mid mounted V12 turbo....best wishes on the rest of it`s completion.
Thanks and fair comments re the body. LOADS of people have asked why try and copy a Zonda, if it doesnt look right, etc.. etc.. honest answer, seemed like a good idea at the time. You have to start somewhere, If the body works OK, maybe I can do another? I have never done anything like this before, so its a VERY steep learning curve. Anyway..3 cheers for the Mid mounted V12 turbo....best wishes on the rest of it`s completion.
On the PLUS side just got a new windscreen and routed the dial face so the dials now fit. Man its cold in the garage!!
nicktruman said:
Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!
Nick, did you actually measure the flex? For a six foot wide car and only taking into account the engine weight you have a moment of 2240 ftlbs resisting the lift of one front corner. On a reasonable chassis this should give an inch of difference across the front suspension mounts when compared to the rear suspension mounts. i.e. if the rear mounts are on the (level) ground, the free front end corner is at x inches and the jacked front end corner is at x+1 inches from the ground.I can't make out the suspension rod end sizes but there are reports of 1/2 inch rod ends failing on kit cars of similar power/size/weight. Stress on the rod end shanks are directly related to how far the ball centre is from the thread housing in the wishbone. Over 1 inch on this dimension and you may well have problems even at bigger rod end sizes. I'm not trying to pick faults, as I don't actually know the size of rod end you are using or how far out the "eye" is from the housing, I'm just passing on the experience of someone who ended up in a ditch!
Great project, I'd love to do it myself but I can't afford a house with a big enough workshop area.
Anyone who has ever thought about making their own car might be interested in other build websites such as the Meerkat, LaBala and DP1 projects.
cymtriks said:
nicktruman said:
Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!
Nick, did you actually measure the flex? For a six foot wide car and only taking into account the engine weight you have a moment of 2240 ftlbs resisting the lift of one front corner. On a reasonable chassis this should give an inch of difference across the front suspension mounts when compared to the rear suspension mounts. i.e. if the rear mounts are on the (level) ground, the free front end corner is at x inches and the jacked front end corner is at x+1 inches from the ground.I can't make out the suspension rod end sizes but there are reports of 1/2 inch rod ends failing on kit cars of similar power/size/weight. Stress on the rod end shanks are directly related to how far the ball centre is from the thread housing in the wishbone. Over 1 inch on this dimension and you may well have problems even at bigger rod end sizes. I'm not trying to pick faults, as I don't actually know the size of rod end you are using or how far out the "eye" is from the housing, I'm just passing on the experience of someone who ended up in a ditch!
Great project, I'd love to do it myself but I can't afford a house with a big enough workshop area.
Anyone who has ever thought about making their own car might be interested in other build websites such as the Meerkat, LaBala and DP1 projects.
Yes I did measure the flex, When I made the chassis I mounted it on axle stands at each corner, then lowered the V12 into it. After an initial creak from everything it settled. I used a dial gauge indicator and took readings across the chassis at different points. I would put a jack below the sump and take the weight of the motor, reset the dial gauge to 0, then slowly lower the engine. the most distortion i got was 5mm, that was mid way along the chassis. I ended up welding some more triangulated sections in the centre tunnel and side rails.
Now if I shine a laser along the length of the car, there is at most a 2 mm sag, but that might be down to stresses in the chassis, i.e. welding sections in an already loaded chassis.
It really is very very stiff! When its finished it will be stronger still, as the skid pan will be the length/width of the car from 0.8mm steel spot welded.
I was very conscious that right behind my head is a very heavy powerful lump of metal!
Regards
Nick
nicktruman said:
cymtriks said:
nicktruman said:
Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!
Nick, did you actually measure the flex? For a six foot wide car and only taking into account the engine weight you have a moment of 2240 ftlbs resisting the lift of one front corner. On a reasonable chassis this should give an inch of difference across the front suspension mounts when compared to the rear suspension mounts. i.e. if the rear mounts are on the (level) ground, the free front end corner is at x inches and the jacked front end corner is at x+1 inches from the ground.I can't make out the suspension rod end sizes but there are reports of 1/2 inch rod ends failing on kit cars of similar power/size/weight. Stress on the rod end shanks are directly related to how far the ball centre is from the thread housing in the wishbone. Over 1 inch on this dimension and you may well have problems even at bigger rod end sizes. I'm not trying to pick faults, as I don't actually know the size of rod end you are using or how far out the "eye" is from the housing, I'm just passing on the experience of someone who ended up in a ditch!
Great project, I'd love to do it myself but I can't afford a house with a big enough workshop area.
Anyone who has ever thought about making their own car might be interested in other build websites such as the Meerkat, LaBala and DP1 projects.
Yes I did measure the flex, When I made the chassis I mounted it on axle stands at each corner, then lowered the V12 into it. After an initial creak from everything it settled. I used a dial gauge indicator and took readings across the chassis at different points. I would put a jack below the sump and take the weight of the motor, reset the dial gauge to 0, then slowly lower the engine. the most distortion i got was 5mm, that was mid way along the chassis. I ended up welding some more triangulated sections in the centre tunnel and side rails.
Now if I shine a laser along the length of the car, there is at most a 2 mm sag, but that might be down to stresses in the chassis, i.e. welding sections in an already loaded chassis.
It really is very very stiff! When its finished it will be stronger still, as the skid pan will be the length/width of the car from 0.8mm steel spot welded.
I was very conscious that right behind my head is a very heavy powerful lump of metal!
Regards
Nick
Welding in the pan will help beam stiffness but it won't make much difference to torsional stiffness.
Out of curiosity what uprights are you using? This always starts a debate on the locostbuilders site!
cymtriks said:
nicktruman said:
cymtriks said:
nicktruman said:
Its made from 1 1/2" 1.5 mm tube, same as the Ultima. Its very rigid, when the V12 was mounted, you could jack up the front corner from the ground and the engine (1/3rd tonne!) would lift too, no flex!
Nick, did you actually measure the flex? For a six foot wide car and only taking into account the engine weight you have a moment of 2240 ftlbs resisting the lift of one front corner. On a reasonable chassis this should give an inch of difference across the front suspension mounts when compared to the rear suspension mounts. i.e. if the rear mounts are on the (level) ground, the free front end corner is at x inches and the jacked front end corner is at x+1 inches from the ground.I can't make out the suspension rod end sizes but there are reports of 1/2 inch rod ends failing on kit cars of similar power/size/weight. Stress on the rod end shanks are directly related to how far the ball centre is from the thread housing in the wishbone. Over 1 inch on this dimension and you may well have problems even at bigger rod end sizes. I'm not trying to pick faults, as I don't actually know the size of rod end you are using or how far out the "eye" is from the housing, I'm just passing on the experience of someone who ended up in a ditch!
Great project, I'd love to do it myself but I can't afford a house with a big enough workshop area.
Anyone who has ever thought about making their own car might be interested in other build websites such as the Meerkat, LaBala and DP1 projects.
Yes I did measure the flex, When I made the chassis I mounted it on axle stands at each corner, then lowered the V12 into it. After an initial creak from everything it settled. I used a dial gauge indicator and took readings across the chassis at different points. I would put a jack below the sump and take the weight of the motor, reset the dial gauge to 0, then slowly lower the engine. the most distortion i got was 5mm, that was mid way along the chassis. I ended up welding some more triangulated sections in the centre tunnel and side rails.
Now if I shine a laser along the length of the car, there is at most a 2 mm sag, but that might be down to stresses in the chassis, i.e. welding sections in an already loaded chassis.
It really is very very stiff! When its finished it will be stronger still, as the skid pan will be the length/width of the car from 0.8mm steel spot welded.
I was very conscious that right behind my head is a very heavy powerful lump of metal!
Regards
Nick
Welding in the pan will help beam stiffness but it won't make much difference to torsional stiffness.
Out of curiosity what uprights are you using? This always starts a debate on the locostbuilders site!
Cheers
Nick
SVA warning light requirements..
What lights and symbols must i have on my dash?
I have ABS fitted,
I know I need a brake symbol, exclamation in a circle, but does it have to go on the dash where the dials are, or could it go on the centre console? Is this just for brake fluid/hand brake.
What lights and symbols must i have on my dash?
I have ABS fitted,
I know I need a brake symbol, exclamation in a circle, but does it have to go on the dash where the dials are, or could it go on the centre console? Is this just for brake fluid/hand brake.
Here is an update, the centre console and dash are just about finished, I have cut the aluminium centre section and fitted the monitor and Sony head unit. The CarPC, Autochanger and amps will fit behind the seats. I have also grafted the Scorpio's glove box to the dash, once covered in the red leatherette it should blend in nicely.
Today I started to glass fibre the body. I have never done this before so am making it up as I go along! The plaster was all rubbed down, I then covered the front with cling film. The I cut the matting to fit the various panels (with overlaps). The I laid the matting and poured resin over it, using a laminating roller I pushed the resin through. On the front alone I used 3.7 litres of resin! Once the first layer was done, I "tailored" a 2nd set of matting panels which I laid over the wet 1st coat. Again I rolled this with the laminating roller. It looks great, no wrinkles or rough spots (as far as I tell). I will let that dry and then cover in CSM surface tissue.
The idea is when all dried out I can lift the front off, get rid of all the polystyrene and plaster and then add extra matting from the inside.
I also cut the panels for the rear end which I will lay up tomorrow.
I've never tried what you're doing so you're already years ahead of me, but I got the impression that the conventional approach (even for one-offs) was to make a buck and then create a mould from the buck. It must take more work, but means that your outer gelcoat surface has a smooth finish from the mould rather than being exposed fibreglass. (My limited experience with fibreglass is that the finish on the exposed surface is cr@p.) It presumably makes it easier to make spares if you get a damaged panel, too.
GreenV8S said:
I've never tried what you're doing so you're already years ahead of me, but I got the impression that the conventional approach (even for one-offs) was to make a buck and then create a mould from the buck. It must take more work, but means that your outer gelcoat surface has a smooth finish from the mould rather than being exposed fibreglass. (My limited experience with fibreglass is that the finish on the exposed surface is cr@p.) It presumably makes it easier to make spares if you get a damaged panel, too.
You have a point! My main concern was cost and having a 2nd car laying about. I have never done anything like this too! However the idea is to rub the very rough surface down, fill it and make it smooth then cover with surface tissue and flowcoat resin. Hopefully that will give a great finish.
as for spare panels. I don't want/not going to crash it in the 1st place
Today I finished the body 4 ply of matting, this weekend I will take out the plug.
Cheers
Nick
Yesterday I glassed the whole body with an extra laminate, today a friend came over and we took off the bonnet and cleaned out all th mold, awesome! The cling film worked a treat and has left me with a great finish (albeit on the inside). The steel frame had holes drilled in it and has bonded to the GRP, all in all its come out way better than anticipated.
On the rear panel we ground down all the high spots and filled the low spot and laid an extra layer of matting, I had made some molds based on the Hella modular lights these were pressed into the wet matting so as to create a snug hole for the rear light fittings. the result is I now have a really flat smooth rear panel with lights! I put a tin foil ring round the tail pipes just for the picture - but i am looking for a 10" (260mm) saucepan I can cut the bottom off to make this trim.
Tomorrow we are taking the rear off and will be removing the last of the polystyrene - this will give me access to the V12 for the 1st time in months.
On the rear panel we ground down all the high spots and filled the low spot and laid an extra layer of matting, I had made some molds based on the Hella modular lights these were pressed into the wet matting so as to create a snug hole for the rear light fittings. the result is I now have a really flat smooth rear panel with lights! I put a tin foil ring round the tail pipes just for the picture - but i am looking for a 10" (260mm) saucepan I can cut the bottom off to make this trim.
Tomorrow we are taking the rear off and will be removing the last of the polystyrene - this will give me access to the V12 for the 1st time in months.
OK, I've been following this thread for a while now so it's about time to add my 2p. Nick, I hope you take my comments in the manner they are intended - although I appreciate this is a very personal project...
I love the idea of this, it's the kind of thing that I'd never put the effort in to make myself. However, while the original picture posted of the rolling chassis was inspirational, everything posted since is really dissappointing.
I was hoping to see a project take place where somebody makes an excellent replica of an amazing car, from scratch in a manner that provides a good proportion of the performance and visual drama for a tiny fraction of the cost. Unfortunately the standard of finish is shaping up to make it end up like one of those 1980's Countach kits based on Beetles and made out of plywood.
This site has a wealth of resources (other people) who would gladly advise how to make a good glass fibre body, how to trim an interior panel etc. etc.
The effort is mighty impressive, but please, please take some time to make things properly and get the fit and finish at least to kit car standards. Your efforts deserve a better result...
I love the idea of this, it's the kind of thing that I'd never put the effort in to make myself. However, while the original picture posted of the rolling chassis was inspirational, everything posted since is really dissappointing.
I was hoping to see a project take place where somebody makes an excellent replica of an amazing car, from scratch in a manner that provides a good proportion of the performance and visual drama for a tiny fraction of the cost. Unfortunately the standard of finish is shaping up to make it end up like one of those 1980's Countach kits based on Beetles and made out of plywood.
This site has a wealth of resources (other people) who would gladly advise how to make a good glass fibre body, how to trim an interior panel etc. etc.
The effort is mighty impressive, but please, please take some time to make things properly and get the fit and finish at least to kit car standards. Your efforts deserve a better result...
groomi said:
OK, I've been following this thread for a while now so it's about time to add my 2p. Nick, I hope you take my comments in the manner they are intended - although I appreciate this is a very personal project...
I love the idea of this, it's the kind of thing that I'd never put the effort in to make myself. However, while the original picture posted of the rolling chassis was inspirational, everything posted since is really dissappointing.
I was hoping to see a project take place where somebody makes an excellent replica of an amazing car, from scratch in a manner that provides a good proportion of the performance and visual drama for a tiny fraction of the cost. Unfortunately the standard of finish is shaping up to make it end up like one of those 1980's Countach kits based on Beetles and made out of plywood.
This site has a wealth of resources (other people) who would gladly advise how to make a good glass fibre body, how to trim an interior panel etc. etc.
The effort is mighty impressive, but please, please take some time to make things properly and get the fit and finish at least to kit car standards. Your efforts deserve a better result...
Sorry I don't understand? Its not finished I just stuck lights in the holes to take a picture! I have loads more to do before I will be happy. The inside is my interpretation of the Zonda not a copy, after all I don't have access to high pressure carbon fibre molds, unlimited resources, tonnes of time etc... and have never done anything before.I love the idea of this, it's the kind of thing that I'd never put the effort in to make myself. However, while the original picture posted of the rolling chassis was inspirational, everything posted since is really dissappointing.
I was hoping to see a project take place where somebody makes an excellent replica of an amazing car, from scratch in a manner that provides a good proportion of the performance and visual drama for a tiny fraction of the cost. Unfortunately the standard of finish is shaping up to make it end up like one of those 1980's Countach kits based on Beetles and made out of plywood.
This site has a wealth of resources (other people) who would gladly advise how to make a good glass fibre body, how to trim an interior panel etc. etc.
The effort is mighty impressive, but please, please take some time to make things properly and get the fit and finish at least to kit car standards. Your efforts deserve a better result...
So at this stage i think thats a bit harsh
I am going to assume that you posted this in hopes of getting feedback and assistance in the areas that you are not versed in as opposed to a bunch of "atta boy" and "cool project". So do not take this as a flame but a desire to help.
You really owe it to yourself to do this right. Have you given any thought to your suspension geometry. Have you calculated your roll center or instantaneous center. What is your king pin inclination and scrub radius. I understand that you modeled the A arms on your Ferrari. A bit dated but a good place to start. Still you used Scorpio hubs. What is the KPI on those as opposed to the Ferrari. Did you account for that in either arm length or mounting points. How does the Ferrari's track and cg compare to yours. How much caster and camber have you designed in. You can't just fall back on "I don't know, this is the first time I have done something like this." History is resplendent with trail blazers and mavericks such as you but generally when a person does not know how to do something they learn (study, research) or ask. I did not even ask about your steering geometry.
I don't suggest that you aspire to produce a race winner. But you risk a car that will suffer such camber changes throughout the suspensions travel that it will be undrivable.
Don't take this the wrong way. I would never come here and suggest your body work is bad (a thousand hours of work and a ton of bondo will fix that) or your lights are wrong or anything else that is subjective. You are doing what every car nut dreams of and you deserve huge props for having the fortitude to get started. But I really think you should plan and learn before welding and slathering.
This site www.dpcars.net might give you some insight into how much goes into a scratch built car. Dennis is famous on the web for his car. BTW his car buck/mold was machine on a half million dollar CNC and he still had hundreds of hours of work sanding and filling to do on the plug. Just go to the PAST section and review his 4 year Design and Build logs and learn moree about car design then you ever thought you needed. It starts with a sketch on a napkin.
As mentioned before there are some suspension modeling sw out there. Or you can make your own analog. Finally here are a few books you really should check out:
Allan Staniforth “Competition car suspension design, construction, tuning”
Carol Smith “Engineer to win”
Milliken & Milliken “Race car vehicle dynamics”
Herb Adams “Chassis Engineering” (He gives a step by step that is a great place to start)
You really owe it to yourself to do this right. Have you given any thought to your suspension geometry. Have you calculated your roll center or instantaneous center. What is your king pin inclination and scrub radius. I understand that you modeled the A arms on your Ferrari. A bit dated but a good place to start. Still you used Scorpio hubs. What is the KPI on those as opposed to the Ferrari. Did you account for that in either arm length or mounting points. How does the Ferrari's track and cg compare to yours. How much caster and camber have you designed in. You can't just fall back on "I don't know, this is the first time I have done something like this." History is resplendent with trail blazers and mavericks such as you but generally when a person does not know how to do something they learn (study, research) or ask. I did not even ask about your steering geometry.
I don't suggest that you aspire to produce a race winner. But you risk a car that will suffer such camber changes throughout the suspensions travel that it will be undrivable.
Don't take this the wrong way. I would never come here and suggest your body work is bad (a thousand hours of work and a ton of bondo will fix that) or your lights are wrong or anything else that is subjective. You are doing what every car nut dreams of and you deserve huge props for having the fortitude to get started. But I really think you should plan and learn before welding and slathering.
This site www.dpcars.net might give you some insight into how much goes into a scratch built car. Dennis is famous on the web for his car. BTW his car buck/mold was machine on a half million dollar CNC and he still had hundreds of hours of work sanding and filling to do on the plug. Just go to the PAST section and review his 4 year Design and Build logs and learn moree about car design then you ever thought you needed. It starts with a sketch on a napkin.
As mentioned before there are some suspension modeling sw out there. Or you can make your own analog. Finally here are a few books you really should check out:
Allan Staniforth “Competition car suspension design, construction, tuning”
Carol Smith “Engineer to win”
Milliken & Milliken “Race car vehicle dynamics”
Herb Adams “Chassis Engineering” (He gives a step by step that is a great place to start)
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