Twin turbo Jag V12 mid engined scratch built Zonda

[300bhp/ton]

Dave Dax builder said:

Now you arer showing your age. The rules haven't been like that for years. (Not for cars like this)

If you call each of the items one point then all you have to score is 2 nowadays, but that will only give you an age related plate (Same year as donor, but not same number)
Even so, this looks like it is going to be on a "Q".

Do you have any more info on this?

This pert of the directgov website seems to say that the points system is still used: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSell...

I'd be very interested if its wrong or has changed.

Thanks.

[nicktruman]

Hi, here's a video of the car i shot yesterday. I fitted fiat Punto tailgate struts to the rear engine cover and fitted the rear lights (only wired one side though). I also re-wired some of the electrics as they were draining the battery.
I also added resistors to the injectors to change them to high impedance, seems to work OK now with no PWM on the ECU, also might last longer at high revs.
All in all everything seems to work really well just now!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_95tcZ0Oc
Still to do..
floorpan, sills, doors, windscreen surround, front suspension, make rest of nylon suspension bushes, fit nuts and bolts on all the suspension and shocks (only bolts at the mo nothing else , get headlights, find way to fit brake pedal rear light switch etc. etc. etc...

[nicktruman]

I have now made most of the passenger side sill and air inlet. It was really difficult to make and was probably the hardest bit so far! I had to make sure that all the panels fitted perfectly and had the right profile.
When the GRP has cured I want to fill the long sill sections with expanded polyurethane foam to give more support and rigidity. Tonight I closed the engine cover and it looks almost awesome (even if i say so myself .

[hairykrishna]

Awesome project. It's going to be a monster when it's finished!

Do you have any drawings of your chassis? I've always fancied an Ultima style car but they're a bit beyond my budget. This thread has started me thinking that I could maybe scratch build something similar...

[nicktruman]

hairykrishna said:

Awesome project. It's going to be a monster when it's finished!

Do you have any drawings of your chassis? I've always fancied an Ultima style car but they're a bit beyond my budget. This thread has started me thinking that I could maybe scratch build something similar...

Heh thanks Mate.
I have no pictures however the Ultima website has some good photos of the chassis exposed as does the parallel design website.
I made a wooden mock up 1st to test for stiffness, when the scale model was glued together it did not twist so was the one I chose. However, it did not stand being run over by the Ferrari


My problem was the engine is so heavy and I don't have an engine hoist, when i tried to use the RSJ over my garage the walls started creaking.
So I built the chassis round the engine and jacked the engine into the chassis.
Today I took the car out and turned it round so i can build the last side pod and sill. I also sorted out the wiring for the front fog lights which need bonding into the bonnet. The passenger side sill is now finished and i have made a frame to support it bolting the whole lot to the car. Just for fun I fitted a mock carbon fibre tread plate.


I also set the idle speed at the throttle bodies as the idle was way too slow. Now it ticks over at 1000rpm and picks up really nicely. I have one issue in that the alternator light does not turn off until the revs hit 3k any ideas?

Cheers
Nick

[nicktruman]

The latest..
I have fitted 2/3rds of the floor pan. I have the very front section under the suspension and the rear diffuser section still to do. I have also fitted the firewall between the cockpit and engine and most of the passenger side interior. Whilst I was making the inner sills I also fitted the two 300 watt speaker and hid all the wiring. It looks really smart now!
I have changed injectors to a lower throughput set 196 cc/min as opposed to 405 cc/min. This has put the fuel tables miles out, but it still runs, but the engine surges and hunts badly.

[rhinochopig]

nicktruman said:

The latest..
I have fitted 2/3rds of the floor pan. I have the very front section under the suspension and the rear diffuser section still to do. I have also fitted the firewall between the cockpit and engine and most of the passenger side interior. Whilst I was making the inner sills I also fitted the two 300 watt speaker and hid all the wiring. It looks really smart now!
I have changed injectors to a lower throughput set 196 cc/min as opposed to 405 cc/min. This has put the fuel tables miles out, but it still runs, but the engine surges and hunts badly.

Please don't take this as harsh criticism - I think it's great what your doing, and is it's easy to comment from your sofa - but...the finish on that body looks terrible in those pics. Like it's made of paper mache = all lumpy with no sharp edges. Have I missed something?

[Davi]

rhinochopig said:

Please don't take this as harsh criticism - I think it's great what your doing, and is it's easy to comment from your sofa - but...the finish on that body looks terrible in those pics. Like it's made of paper mache = all lumpy with no sharp edges. Have I missed something?

Nick's doing it the (extremely) hard way - building lumpy then flatting and finishing later. Elbow grease? ahh yes 20 barrels over here please!

[rhinochopig]

Davi said:

rhinochopig said:

Please don't take this as harsh criticism - I think it's great what your doing, and is it's easy to comment from your sofa - but...the finish on that body looks terrible in those pics. Like it's made of paper mache = all lumpy with no sharp edges. Have I missed something?

Nick's doing it the (extremely) hard way - building lumpy then flatting and finishing later. Elbow grease? ahh yes 20 barrels over here please!

Ah, that explains it. I'd assumed he'd done the body in ply first and then produced a mould.

Blimey that'll take some effort - good luck fella!

Edited by rhinochopig on Monday 20th April 09:49

[nicktruman]

rhinochopig said:

Davi said:

rhinochopig said:

Please don't take this as harsh criticism - I think it's great what your doing, and is it's easy to comment from your sofa - but...the finish on that body looks terrible in those pics. Like it's made of paper mache = all lumpy with no sharp edges. Have I missed something?

Nick's doing it the (extremely) hard way - building lumpy then flatting and finishing later. Elbow grease? ahh yes 20 barrels over here please!

Ah, that explains it. I'd assumed he done the body in ply first and then produced a mould.

Blimey that'll take some effort - good luck fella!

Don't worry I know I have a mountain to climb! The front is bad, but in all fairness that was the first bit I made, the back came out OK but will need some work.
However i have tried to finish some of the back (to see if its doable) and it worked out nicely - but it will take a tonne of bondo
I guess after all the work to get it to here, its not too much of a big deal

[Davi]

nicktruman said:

rhinochopig said:

Davi said:

rhinochopig said:

Please don't take this as harsh criticism - I think it's great what your doing, and is it's easy to comment from your sofa - but...the finish on that body looks terrible in those pics. Like it's made of paper mache = all lumpy with no sharp edges. Have I missed something?

Nick's doing it the (extremely) hard way - building lumpy then flatting and finishing later. Elbow grease? ahh yes 20 barrels over here please!

Ah, that explains it. I'd assumed he done the body in ply first and then produced a mould.

Blimey that'll take some effort - good luck fella!

Don't worry I know I have a mountain to climb! The front is bad, but in all fairness that was the first bit I made, the back came out OK but will need some work.
However i have tried to finish some of the back (to see if its doable) and it worked out nicely - but it will take a tonne of bondo
I guess after all the work to get it to here, its not too much of a big deal

The massive amount of filler needed is the biggest draw back of doing it the way you have, firstly because of the weight, secondly because of the fragility of filler compared to GF. oh and thirdly because you're going to have arms like Popeye and serious joint pains by the time you're done

Suppose the biggest advantage is you can see it forming earlier on so can keep spirits up!

[andygtt]

Davi said:

The massive amount of filler needed is the biggest draw back of doing it the way you have, firstly because of the weight, secondly because of the fragility of filler compared to GF. oh and thirdly because you're going to have arms like Popeye and serious joint pains by the time you're done

Suppose the biggest advantage is you can see it forming earlier on so can keep spirits up!

Im doing exactly the same to create my buck... but I have to say to get a finish even remotelly close to what I thinks ok I have had to put masses of filler in and its extremelly fragile due to the sheer weight of the pannels.
Of cause for the buck it doesnt matter but on a finished car I think it will crack terribly... Of cause the arms like popeye will be a bonus lol

[skwdenyer]

Davi said:

nicktruman said:

rhinochopig said:

Davi said:

rhinochopig said:

Please don't take this as harsh criticism - I think it's great what your doing, and is it's easy to comment from your sofa - but...the finish on that body looks terrible in those pics. Like it's made of paper mache = all lumpy with no sharp edges. Have I missed something?

Nick's doing it the (extremely) hard way - building lumpy then flatting and finishing later. Elbow grease? ahh yes 20 barrels over here please!

Ah, that explains it. I'd assumed he done the body in ply first and then produced a mould.

Blimey that'll take some effort - good luck fella!

Don't worry I know I have a mountain to climb! The front is bad, but in all fairness that was the first bit I made, the back came out OK but will need some work.
However i have tried to finish some of the back (to see if its doable) and it worked out nicely - but it will take a tonne of bondo
I guess after all the work to get it to here, its not too much of a big deal

The massive amount of filler needed is the biggest draw back of doing it the way you have, firstly because of the weight, secondly because of the fragility of filler compared to GF. oh and thirdly because you're going to have arms like Popeye and serious joint pains by the time you're done

Suppose the biggest advantage is you can see it forming earlier on so can keep spirits up!

Doing it this way does at least mean that Nick can, if he likes, then take moulds from the finished article to produce more conventional panels, whilst still being able to build up "on the car".

[Davi]

andygtt said:

Im doing exactly the same to create my buck... but I have to say to get a finish even remotelly close to what I thinks ok I have had to put masses of filler in and its extremelly fragile due to the sheer weight of the pannels.
Of cause for the buck it doesnt matter but on a finished car I think it will crack terribly... Of cause the arms like popeye will be a bonus lol

I thought you roughed the shape in foam and plaster on yours first Andy? Obviously the workload is massive on any buck forming, I just tend to use considerably more fragile but easier workable materials on a buck - trying to sand and rework a thick multilayer GF shell is horrific, absolutely soul destroying in my experience - that's before you even get to the filler! As you say the amount of filler needed on road going panels is likely to crack badly

skwdenyer said:

Doing it this way does at least mean that Nick can, if he likes, then take moulds from the finished article to produce more conventional panels, whilst still being able to build up "on the car".

Reading his various threads on forums, he doesn't want moulds laying around so won't do this - I believe a serious mistake.

[andygtt]

I have done a mix of things on my car, mostly thought I roughly made up FG pannels and then covered them in masses of body filler.... I have already had to remake sections due to cracking and my car has never moved.... also the pannels have a tendancy to move over time as they cure meaning remakes.

Been a constant battle actually and not a process I would repeat even for a stationary buck.... but then I never have done things the easy way lol

[nicktruman]

Davi said:

andygtt said:

Im doing exactly the same to create my buck... but I have to say to get a finish even remotelly close to what I thinks ok I have had to put masses of filler in and its extremelly fragile due to the sheer weight of the pannels.
Of cause for the buck it doesnt matter but on a finished car I think it will crack terribly... Of cause the arms like popeye will be a bonus lol

I thought you roughed the shape in foam and plaster on yours first Andy? Obviously the workload is massive on any buck forming, I just tend to use considerably more fragile but easier workable materials on a buck - trying to sand and rework a thick multilayer GF shell is horrific, absolutely soul destroying in my experience - that's before you even get to the filler! As you say the amount of filler needed on road going panels is likely to crack badly

skwdenyer said:

Doing it this way does at least mean that Nick can, if he likes, then take moulds from the finished article to produce more conventional panels, whilst still being able to build up "on the car".

Reading his various threads on forums, he doesn't want moulds laying around so won't do this - I believe a serious mistake.

Heh Guys! Don't be too cruel! The car isn't that bad. Ideally I would have got a mould but there is a real shortage of Zonda owners willing to let me copy their pride and joy ;-)
In an ideal world I should have made a female mould and done what you suggested, but money is/was tight and to make this car I could not afford to duplicate all the GRP costs. I know thats a lame excuse but alas its true.
However
As i said on the rear section i have tried to experiment in making it look better, and it seems to work well.
I rubbed the bad bits down with a rotary sander and filled with P38. Then I glassed over with fine tissue. When this went off I rubbed down again then painted resin over that. It came out really well! So I figure I could do that for the whole car?
The front looks bad, too much resin and matting too quickly, but then you learn by your mistakes. However, If i fill the creases on the inside then layer a coating of 400 gram matting inside. When I rub/grind out the creases I should have a sound shell? Then I just layer again with tissue matting and paint top coat resin over. That's the theory, it certainly works on small sections..
I do know that when peopke come round and see it (your all welcome!) in the flesh (so to speak) the view is its quite awesome, i think the body looks worse in pictures because of the shadows but i might just be being sensitive

Regards

Nick

[Davi]

nicktruman said:

Heh Guys! Don't be too cruel! The car isn't that bad. Ideally I would have got a mould but there is a real shortage of Zonda owners willing to let me copy their pride and joy ;-)
In an ideal world I should have made a female mould and done what you suggested, but money is/was tight and to make this car I could not afford to duplicate all the GRP costs. I know thats a lame excuse but alas its true.
However
As i said on the rear section i have tried to experiment in making it look better, and it seems to work well.
I rubbed the bad bits down with a rotary sander and filled with P38. Then I glassed over with fine tissue. When this went off I rubbed down again then painted resin over that. It came out really well! So I figure I could do that for the whole car?
The front looks bad, too much resin and matting too quickly, but then you learn by your mistakes. However, If i fill the creases on the inside then layer a coating of 400 gram matting inside. When I rub/grind out the creases I should have a sound shell? Then I just layer again with tissue matting and paint top coat resin over. That's the theory, it certainly works on small sections..
I do know that when peopke come round and see it (your all welcome!) in the flesh (so to speak) the view is its quite awesome, i think the body looks worse in pictures because of the shadows but i might just be being sensitive

Regards

Nick

Not trying to be cruel Nick, just trying to help - it's a mammoth task you've undertaken and I don't wish to detract from your achievements or your enjoyment of the project one tiny bit, rather don't want to watch you make mistakes that are avoidable if you'll take a little well intentioned advice to stop seeing you disappointed when it's finished!

I think the biggest problem you are facing is a lack of experience with glass fibre and the long term effects of movement and stresses on it. Grinding down, building up with filler then coating over the top with a thin layerwill quite probably make a perfectly sound looking shell - but structurally it's going to be quite poor and it's likely you won't even make it to the SVA station before it cracks

Considering the cost of the resin and matting needed to make a mould, I reckon you'll spend a hell of a lot more getting your current work finished to a standard that will stand up to a coat of gloss paint than you would have making a buck and moulding from it.

Edited by Davi on Monday 20th April 14:31

[nicktruman]

Davi said:

nicktruman said:

Heh Guys! Don't be too cruel! The car isn't that bad. Ideally I would have got a mould but there is a real shortage of Zonda owners willing to let me copy their pride and joy ;-)
In an ideal world I should have made a female mould and done what you suggested, but money is/was tight and to make this car I could not afford to duplicate all the GRP costs. I know thats a lame excuse but alas its true.
However
As i said on the rear section i have tried to experiment in making it look better, and it seems to work well.
I rubbed the bad bits down with a rotary sander and filled with P38. Then I glassed over with fine tissue. When this went off I rubbed down again then painted resin over that. It came out really well! So I figure I could do that for the whole car?
The front looks bad, too much resin and matting too quickly, but then you learn by your mistakes. However, If i fill the creases on the inside then layer a coating of 400 gram matting inside. When I rub/grind out the creases I should have a sound shell? Then I just layer again with tissue matting and paint top coat resin over. That's the theory, it certainly works on small sections..
I do know that when peopke come round and see it (your all welcome!) in the flesh (so to speak) the view is its quite awesome, i think the body looks worse in pictures because of the shadows but i might just be being sensitive

Regards

Nick

Not trying to be cruel Nick, just trying to help - it's a mammoth task you've undertaken and I don't wish to detract from your achievements or your enjoyment of the project one tiny bit, rather don't want to watch you make mistakes that are avoidable if you'll take a little well intentioned advice to stop seeing you disappointed when it's finished!

I think the biggest problem you are facing is a lack of experience with glass fibre and the long term effects of movement and stresses on it. Grinding down, building up with filler then coating over the top with a thin layerwill quite probably make a perfectly sound looking shell - but structurally it's going to be quite poor and it's likely you won't even make it to the SVA station before it cracks

Considering the cost of the resin and matting needed to make a mould, I reckon you'll spend a hell of a lot more getting your current work finished to a standard that will stand up to a coat of gloss paint than you would have making a buck and moulding from it.

Edited by Davi on Monday 20th April 14:31

Hi Davi, no arguments there! YOu are right I have no experience with resin, the damn stuff keeps moving and sagging even after it gone hard

Sometimes I wish I could just get an off the shelf body but that's not going to happen.. I think I need to finish off the last panel (the drivers side sill and air intake and take stock of where I am. On the + side..

If you guys want projector head lights for you carts i have found the ultimate source! Suzuki AY50 moped lights. Ther are twin Projectors and can be picked up for around £15 a pair.

So that leads to my next project, I need to fabriate and make 2 head light units. But I want them to be great. See picture below, any ideas??

[Davi]

If it's moving and sagging after considerable cure time you've gone wrong somewhere - may just be not enough layers / reinforcement area's but it could be something in the chemical mix or mechanical layup. Poorly bonded layers (heavy resin to fibre ratio usually a good example) or poorly stippled and rolled work can cause voids and a weak panel.

Lights... Be careful - IIRC bike / scooter lights do not throw the correct beam and will not get through SVA (may be incorrect but sure I read that somewhere recently!)

as to making the units... make a buck and take moulds Work with some hard insulation foam, easy to sand and carve to shape, then a thin tissue of resin, then final fill and smooth only with filler!

Edited by Davi on Monday 20th April 15:53

[nicktruman]

Davi said:

If it's moving and sagging after considerable cure time you've gone wrong somewhere - may just be not enough layers / reinforcement area's but it could be something in the chemical mix or mechanical layup. Poorly bonded layers (heavy resin to fibre ratio usually a good example) or poorly stippled and rolled work can cause voids and a weak panel.

Lights... Be careful - IIRC bike / scooter lights do not throw the correct beam and will not get through SVA (may be incorrect but sure I read that somewhere recently!)

as to making the units... make a buck and take moulds Work with some hard insulation foam, easy to sand and carve to shape, then a thin tissue of resin, then final fill and smooth only with filler!

Edited by Davi on Monday 20th April 15:53

How long is it supposed to take to cure?
The lights are e-marked so OK/legal for UK road use.