Question for Den.

[spartan_andy]

Now Now I thought we done all this before. Instead of opening this can of worms again just send him to the previous thread

[Numptie]

kitcarman said:

Numptie said: The main driver for purchase is the classifieds. Interesting that, since Kit Car has quadruple the quantity of classifieds.

... however I had said beforehand ...

Numptie said:

To be frank, it's mostly down to availability ...

OK - rephrase ... The main driver for purchase of either is the classifieds.

Clear enough now ?

[kitcarman]

Numptie said:

. . .it's mostly down to availability ... OK - rephrase ... The main driver for purchase of either is the classifieds. Clear enough now ?

Perfectly clear. As I said, it wasn’t a confrontational question. I was genuinely interested in your reasoning. Because if I know what you want, it will help me deliver it.

Den.

[Ex-Biker]

Ouch! felt that one.


Now stop it, both of you.


This topic has already been dealt with, and community service should be dished out to any re-offenders!!


Perhaps Den, you could let Numptie know where his nearest regular stockist is, and then let him choose which he buys.


Then whenever any of us meet up, we'll all be good friends.

BTW is the pissing contest still on? I recon on 3 mins continuous at the mo. Beat that, and no pissin' in the wind.


(Bugger, that was supposed to be posted before Den's reply)

>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Monday 3rd November 13:12

[spartan_andy]

that's the problem with only being able to type with one finger

[kitcarman]

Ex-Biker said:

Now stop it, both of you.

Sorry officer, but I thought me and Numptie were getting along fine.

Den

[Wacky Racer]

[quote=kitcarman]Fewer classifieds, fewer trade adverts, fewer pages and fewer shop spaces. All speak of a collapse in demand. With sales down to 6,400 it must be a struggle. Remember that CCC threw in the towel with sales at 9,000.

Seriously though Den, with your "impartial" hat on can you see Which Kit? being in trouble in the future, I must admit I can't see it myself, but you have your ear to the pulse, do you know something we don't?

[kitcarman]

In all seriousness Wacky, it all comes down to economics .

The print bill for Which Kit? will be around £13,000. Artwork will add another £3,000. Then there’s the wages (for both staff and contributors) at about £7,000. Finally, it runs an office, which with all its associated expenses, must come to £3,000 per month. So, it costs about £26,000 per month to produce.

Income comes from 50% of the cover price of the 6400 sold (£11,000) plus advertising (£8,000) plus subscriptions (£1,000). Finally there’s a few bob to be made out of books, but it’s marginal.

By my reckoning there’s a £6,000 shortfall. The gap is plugged by the two Which Kit? shows, the ‘British Kitcars’ business (which Which Kit? claims to be building a future for) and its interests or commissions or whatever they’re called in the kits it’s purveying. Finally, and I’ve never mentioned this before, but it charges manufactures who benefit from build-up stories.

It seems to me that the combination of my exposing the shams (making it harder for him to make money from them) whilst capturing his market must, at some stage, lead to the collapse of the entire house of cards. This thread is (was) about advertising revenue. I can assure you that my stating the truth concerning sales figures so forcefully, complete with Pinocchio nose, has caused Which Kit’s revenue to drop.

He’s up against the odds on all fronts and I’m certainly not going to make things any easier for the miserable ard.

[Numptie]

kitcarman said:

... but I thought me and Numptie were getting along fine.

Yeah, me too

[kitcarman]

Numptie said:

Yeah, me too

I hope you all noted that!

I’ve got a friend

Thanks Numptie

Den

[Ex-Biker]

A bit of fence sitting here, but:

kitcarman said:

Finally, and I’ve never mentioned this before, but it charges manufactures who benefit from build-up stories.

Surely this isn't in their interest. I mean magazine stories benefit all parties. Manufacturers get publicity (=sales) and publishers get interesting stories (=sales). I can understand tagging an advertising campaign onto a story, but not paying for a story.

I've got this picture in my head at the mo of a journalist doing a story on a terrorist threat and then asking Tony Blair for some cash, if he wants it published.

Does this mean with financial input from another party, that they can still point out shortfalls and problems from an unbiased viewpoint? (sorry that sounds like I'm bitchin')


BTW

kitcarman said:

Then there’s the wages (for both staff and contributors) at about £7,000.

how much do we all get?

[andycanam]

Sorry can you clear something up....

Sales.
Do these quoted figures including the subscriptions as well as shelf sales.

[kitcarman]

andycanam said:

Sorry can you clear something up.... Sales. Do these quoted figures including the subscriptions as well as shelf sales.

No Andy,
They just relate to those sold in UK shops. They are complied by wholesalers, for their customers who are UK shops only.

There will be sales ‘off the page’ like subs and back issues and there will be ‘other sales’ like at shows and through foreign wholesalers. None of these will be included within the 6,400.

Even throwing a few hundred extra quid into the positive side of the equation, one can see it’s not a comfortable position to be in. As I said CCC threw in the towel at 9,000 (figure taken from same wholesaler ranking statistcs).

The last figures I’ve got for Which Kit? relate to y/e 2001 in which the turnover was £300,000 (compared to Kit Car’s £500,000) and it made a £9,000 loss (compared to Kit Car’s healthy profit). I’ve no doubt that Which Kit’s position is presently worse because I’ve seen the sales decline over the past two years, I’ve seen advertising decline and I’ve effectively forced Which Kit? to produce a bigger magazine.

I reckon the financial state of affairs dictates their holding onto the Python and Razer like a dog holds a bone.

Finally, over the past couple of years Fib’s expended a Kings ransom in legal fees. Was that another pin in my effigy?

Funny that Peter isn’t saying anything . I know he’s listening.

Den



>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 3rd November 16:51

[kitcarman]

Ex-Biker said:

A bit of fence sitting here, but: kitcarman said: Finally, and I’ve never mentioned this before, but it charges manufactures who benefit from build-up stories. Surely this isn't in their interest. I mean magazine stories benefit all parties. Manufacturers get publicity (=sales) and publishers get interesting stories (=sales). I can understand tagging an advertising campaign onto a story, but not paying for a story. Does this mean with financial input from another party, that they can still point out shortfalls and problems from an unbiased viewpoint? (sorry that sounds like I'm bitchin')

This is how it works.

Which Kit? have a policy of doing build ups. They wish to make money out of it. So, they approach Caterham and say bluntly ‘give us a kit’ and Caterham say ‘you must be joking'. Then they put the proposition to Westfield with the same result. Next they go down the pecking order until they find a manufacturer who is desperate enough to ‘give them a kit’.

I’m not going to publicly name names, but the following is an extract from a letter from Which Kit? (signed by Fib’s) to a manufacturer whose kit he has no idea of concerning fit or finish (because he doesn’t know a spoon from a spanner and because the kit in question is a relative newbie).

Fibs said:

What we have done many times. . . .is to provide superb editorial coverage of the car’s construction. . . in return for being supplied F.O.C with a [full] kit. . . . . . a very fair exchange. . .A full page ad in Which Kit? costs £300+VAT so if we run a series. . . . the value of the space (excluding the cover) could be argued at £6,000+VAT.

From Which Kit? perspective, it provides it’s readers with build reports and I don’t suppose that anybody would notice that mainly smaller firms get “superb editorial coverage” which is absolutely devoid of criticism.

It makes me .

Is it me with the problem?

Den


>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 3rd November 18:40

[PeetBee]

So assuming they get the kit free, if WK? sell the completed car then WK? would get to keep the money?

speculation only

[kitcarman]

PeetBee said:

So assuming they get the kit free, if WK? sell the completed car then WK? would get to keep the money? speculation only

10/10
They’re sold by “British Kitcars”

meeja said:

Using that calculation then, the Ultima build should have been featured in about three years worth of issues then!

I don’t know about all the workings of all the deals, but Tom tells me that Ultima has never paid for a Which Kit? advertisement. Also the arrival of that particular car/kit coincided with Mr Dean going onto the full-time staff. I have no idea what all this adds-up to, but to my cynical mind there’s something that smells fishy.

I don’t think the Ultima coverage is finished by any means. This month it was Ultima does SVA, next month it will be Ultima does a track day. . .goes shopping. . .has a roof rack fitted, and by hook or by crook it’ll turn up in every issue as a “staff car” saga.

Who knows what the deal is, but I believe one is in place.

Den


>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 3rd November 21:24

[Ozzie Dave]

Den,yes I am interested in those issues ,especially as I was the writer of one of the letters! to me integrety is important in a magazine is important, I like a lot of others were under the misaprehension that which kit was straight and kit car was written by a couple of manufacturers for their own benefit!It seems now both could be easily pidgeonholed into the same catagory. that would be a shame to happen .NB am I the only one who takes little interest in the adds(because they are 5 months old when I get it)

[kitcarman]

Ozzie Dave said:

Den,yes I am interested in those issues ,especially as I was the writer of one of the letters! I like a lot of others were under the misapprehension that which kit was straight and kit car was written by a couple of manufacturers for their own benefit! It seems now both could be easily pidgeonholed into the same catagory. that would be a shame to happen.

Dave,
I know what you mean and my entering this forum was risky in that I could have been misunderstood .

However, now that you and a lot of others have a fuller and deeper understanding of the true situation, I reckon it’s been worth the effort.

There’s a load of good yet to come out of this

Den

[daxtojeiro]

Den,
have you got some form of fetish for these little smiley things as you do seem to use quite a few of them,
Phil