Question for Den.
Discussion
kitcarman said:
I don’t think the Ultima coverage is finished by any means. This month it was Ultima does SVA
, next month it will be Ultima does a track day. . .goes shopping. . .has a roof rack fitted
, and by hook or by crook it’ll turn up in every issue as a “staff car” saga.
To be fair, the Ultima is a 40 grand supercar (and on inspection at Donington, a damn good one too!)..... I'd want to milk it for all it's worth if I was editor/publisher of WK!
Ultima factory said:
What Mr Tanner fails to inform the readers of the PH forum is that "Kit Car" shamelessly scans in adverts that are placed in "Which Kit" and places them in "Kit Car" the following month not only to boost it's size but also in an attempt to fool the reader into believing that all kit car manufacturers support this magazine.
First off, your reply seems rather bitter as if there is some history behind it. Also I don't understand why as a manufacturer you wouldn't support Kit Car magazine, what would be your reason as I would have thought manufacturers need to get as much exposure as possible and Kit Car magazine has the benefit of being called 'Kit Car' so it's naturally picked up first by people interested/new to kit cars.
And I would have thought Dens 'shameless' reproductions of adverts would only benefit you - for no cost, so whats your beef?
Puzzled
John
www.madabout-kitcars.com
>> Edited by jgmadkit on Tuesday 4th November 10:30
Firstly, Mr. Marlow, good to have your input onto this forum, can only benefit everybody concerned 
I can understand your anger, but this is what Den ACTUALLY said:
I don’t know about all the workings of all the deals, but Tom tells me that Ultima has never paid for a Which Kit? advertisement. Also the arrival of that particular car/kit coincided with Mr Dean going onto the full-time staff. I have no idea what all this adds-up to, but to my cynical mind there’s something that smells fishy.
I don’t think the Ultima coverage is finished by any means. This month it was Ultima does SVA, next month it will be Ultima does a track day. . .goes shopping. . .has a roof rack fitted, and by hook or by crook it’ll turn up in every issue as a “staff car” saga.
Who knows what the deal is, but I believe one is in place.
I don't think reading that, Mr Tanner made any allegations, he used words such as "I don't know about the workings of all the deals", Tom tells me, (second hand tittle tackle imo), " I have no idea what all this adds up to"....
At the very worst, Den can be accused of putting two and two together and making five, hardly an allegation surely.
btw, Ted, I agree with you about Nigel "detail" Dean, I met him on the "Ultima" stand at Stafford kit car show last year (I think), and a more charming and helpful man you could wish to meet.
Just like to finish by saying I think your cars are superb, and a credit to you and your workforce...
I can understand your anger, but this is what Den ACTUALLY said:
I don’t know about all the workings of all the deals, but Tom tells me that Ultima has never paid for a Which Kit? advertisement. Also the arrival of that particular car/kit coincided with Mr Dean going onto the full-time staff. I have no idea what all this adds-up to, but to my cynical mind there’s something that smells fishy.
I don’t think the Ultima coverage is finished by any means. This month it was Ultima does SVA, next month it will be Ultima does a track day. . .goes shopping. . .has a roof rack fitted, and by hook or by crook it’ll turn up in every issue as a “staff car” saga.
Who knows what the deal is, but I believe one is in place.
I don't think reading that, Mr Tanner made any allegations, he used words such as "I don't know about the workings of all the deals", Tom tells me, (second hand tittle tackle imo), " I have no idea what all this adds up to"....
At the very worst, Den can be accused of putting two and two together and making five, hardly an allegation surely.
btw, Ted, I agree with you about Nigel "detail" Dean, I met him on the "Ultima" stand at Stafford kit car show last year (I think), and a more charming and helpful man you could wish to meet.
Just like to finish by saying I think your cars are superb, and a credit to you and your workforce...
Thanks to Meeja, Wacky and John for your astute observations
.
Ted,
I did indeed make clear that I had no idea concerning the precise nature of the arrangement. Even had my hypothesis been completely correct there’d have been nothing wrong with your part in it and therefore nothing to apologise to you and your excellent staff about. As for Nigel, I’m inclined to agree with you that he’s a fine upstanding gentleman.
In another post, I made a point concerning a group of manufacturers who worked co-operatively with Which Kit? but not with Kit Car. There’s nothing wrong with supporting one and not the other, so please don’t take this as another innuendo. The fact is that I’ve been a publisher for 12 years, but have never managed to secure an advertisement booking from Ultima, yet throughout that period Ultima has been regularly advertised in Which Kit?. There are a number of other manufacturers who’ve been similarly loyal to Which Kit? at what I see as my expense.
That expense is two-fold in that Which Kit? benefits from the revenue (in whatever form) and from the credibility of carrying advertisements not appearing in the other. In June of this year, for the first time, I introduced a very aggressive policy of righting what I see as various wrongs. At the most superficial level I’ve plainly stated that Which Kit? does not enjoy the market position that it claims (affecting revenue from non-partisan manufacturers). At a secondary level, I’ve worked very hard to ensure that all commercially active manufacturers are advertising in Kit Car, generally by offering good rates and convincing them of the truth of my first point which, as you very well know, is supported by the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) and whose adjudications can be read on their web-site to which I’ve referred you.
There are a number of manufacturers who I’ve not been able to get through to
, yourself included, whose products I’ve advertised at my expense for the benefit of readers and such that I can truly claim to have the best range of adverts. Which Kit? could do the same if it wanted to. Those presently being run on that basis include yours, Marlin (as mentioned on another thread), Blackjack Avion, Chesil and Ginetta. Together these add up to a page in area.
I and John are curious to know exactly what your objection is, to being beneficiary of a ¼ page of free advertising.
I’d like to know what your problem with Kit Car has been. I’m not aware of any past problems.
Finally, Ian Hyne told me that there’s an Ultima belonging to Mr Filby at your factory. Is that true?
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Tuesday 4th November 12:16
. Ted,
I did indeed make clear that I had no idea concerning the precise nature of the arrangement. Even had my hypothesis been completely correct there’d have been nothing wrong with your part in it and therefore nothing to apologise to you and your excellent staff about. As for Nigel, I’m inclined to agree with you that he’s a fine upstanding gentleman.
In another post, I made a point concerning a group of manufacturers who worked co-operatively with Which Kit? but not with Kit Car. There’s nothing wrong with supporting one and not the other, so please don’t take this as another innuendo. The fact is that I’ve been a publisher for 12 years, but have never managed to secure an advertisement booking from Ultima, yet throughout that period Ultima has been regularly advertised in Which Kit?. There are a number of other manufacturers who’ve been similarly loyal to Which Kit? at what I see as my expense.
That expense is two-fold in that Which Kit? benefits from the revenue (in whatever form) and from the credibility of carrying advertisements not appearing in the other. In June of this year, for the first time, I introduced a very aggressive policy of righting what I see as various wrongs. At the most superficial level I’ve plainly stated that Which Kit? does not enjoy the market position that it claims (affecting revenue from non-partisan manufacturers). At a secondary level, I’ve worked very hard to ensure that all commercially active manufacturers are advertising in Kit Car, generally by offering good rates and convincing them of the truth of my first point which, as you very well know, is supported by the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) and whose adjudications can be read on their web-site to which I’ve referred you.
There are a number of manufacturers who I’ve not been able to get through to
, yourself included, whose products I’ve advertised at my expense for the benefit of readers and such that I can truly claim to have the best range of adverts. Which Kit? could do the same if it wanted to. Those presently being run on that basis include yours, Marlin (as mentioned on another thread), Blackjack Avion, Chesil and Ginetta. Together these add up to a page in area. I and John are curious to know exactly what your objection is, to being beneficiary of a ¼ page of free advertising.
I’d like to know what your problem with Kit Car has been. I’m not aware of any past problems.
Finally, Ian Hyne told me that there’s an Ultima belonging to Mr Filby at your factory. Is that true?
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Tuesday 4th November 12:16
Crikey, it’s all happening here.
I'm the one who told Den that Ultima has never paid for an advert in Which Kit?, I told him this because in January of this year at the Autosport show I approached Ted at Ulltima on his stand with our Editor Ian Hyne, and asked him about the advertising in WK, in which he replied that he didn’t pay and that PF owed him something?
I have to say, my first phone call was to Ted at Ultima when I joined Kit~Car Magazine almost 3 years ago, and since then on the occasions I have spoken to Ted he has never seemed too happy with Kit Car Magazine and some occasions not interested in speaking to me. More importantly I cant understand why from a commercial point that Ultima seems to want nothing to do with Kit~Car Magazine ? Even a free advert seems wrong ? Why?
>> Edited by tombs on Tuesday 4th November 14:40
>> Edited by tombs on Wednesday 5th November 09:57
I'm the one who told Den that Ultima has never paid for an advert in Which Kit?, I told him this because in January of this year at the Autosport show I approached Ted at Ulltima on his stand with our Editor Ian Hyne, and asked him about the advertising in WK, in which he replied that he didn’t pay and that PF owed him something?
I have to say, my first phone call was to Ted at Ultima when I joined Kit~Car Magazine almost 3 years ago, and since then on the occasions I have spoken to Ted he has never seemed too happy with Kit Car Magazine and some occasions not interested in speaking to me. More importantly I cant understand why from a commercial point that Ultima seems to want nothing to do with Kit~Car Magazine ? Even a free advert seems wrong ? Why?
>> Edited by tombs on Tuesday 4th November 14:40
>> Edited by tombs on Wednesday 5th November 09:57
Ultima factory said:
Incidentally just for the record Ultima Sports Ltd has never knowingly advertised in "Kit Car"
"Kit Car" shamelessly scans in adverts that are placed in "Which Kit" and places them in "Kit Car" . . . . . .to fool the reader into believing that all kit car manufacturers support this magazine.
Makes you think about the validity of all the other statements made by Mr Tanner.
So Ted,
Why has Ultima boycotted Kit Car?
Why did you tell Tom that you don’t pay for your advertising in Which Kit?
Exactly what is ‘shameless’ about my giving you a free advertisement?
How do you equate a free advertisement, with “the other statements made by Mr Tanner.”?
What is your real beef (as asked by John)?
We’ve only ever exchanged half a dozen words in 12 years, so what’s your problem with me? Is it something you’ve heard? From whom?
traction said:
Uh oh, a distinct lack of Emoticons from Den there...
Ta.
There is a time and place appointed for everything under heaven….A time to laugh…..A time to cry.
Den
You can't make "insinuations" and then wonder why people get upset.
I remember having a very scathing attack from Den when he felt I insinuated something.
Maybe Ultima are boycotting Kit car or maybe they are just getting a deal from Which Kit for exclusive advertisement...... if this was so, I would understand how Ultima and Which Kit would be upset at having their adverts copied.
However they have no obligation to explain their advertising strategy.
The problem is there some blatent accuasations with challenges to come and defend them... but any attempt to do so results in claims that "you must be in on it as well" or "why are you upset if its not true" etc.
There comes a time when these attacks, snide remarks, insinuations etc must stop..... surelly that time has passed.
I remember having a very scathing attack from Den when he felt I insinuated something.
Maybe Ultima are boycotting Kit car or maybe they are just getting a deal from Which Kit for exclusive advertisement...... if this was so, I would understand how Ultima and Which Kit would be upset at having their adverts copied.
However they have no obligation to explain their advertising strategy.
The problem is there some blatent accuasations with challenges to come and defend them... but any attempt to do so results in claims that "you must be in on it as well" or "why are you upset if its not true" etc.
There comes a time when these attacks, snide remarks, insinuations etc must stop..... surelly that time has passed.
WOW! So as Brookside disappears it's time for another cracking 
opera!! This is great, it's so much better when we get a big-hitter like Ted Marlow involved in the intrigue and counter-intrigue! Surely Den should be wheeling out a secret weapon now.......
I know I'm only small-fry, but when I asked 'WK?' why I could buy their mag 3 days before it turned up on my doorstep I got this reply...........(sound of wind blowing tumbleweed across my drive)...!!! That's right BU**ER ALL. Needless to say I'm not stupid and cancelled the subscription. I also have two personal friends who feel they have been turned over or let down by WK?......
>> Edited by Ferg on Wednesday 5th November 13:29
opera!! This is great, it's so much better when we get a big-hitter like Ted Marlow involved in the intrigue and counter-intrigue! Surely Den should be wheeling out a secret weapon now....... I know I'm only small-fry, but when I asked 'WK?' why I could buy their mag 3 days before it turned up on my doorstep I got this reply...........(sound of wind blowing tumbleweed across my drive)...!!! That's right BU**ER ALL. Needless to say I'm not stupid and cancelled the subscription. I also have two personal friends who feel they have been turned over or let down by WK?......
>> Edited by Ferg on Wednesday 5th November 13:29
Sorry Andy,
But your posting doesn’t hold water at any level:-
Whatever interpretation is placed on what I said regarding Which Kit? coverage could never IMHO be taken, and certainly wasn’t intended to be taken, as an insinuation against Ultima. However, it seems to me that Ted himself has opened the debate by making assertions against me whilst admitting that his advertising strategy is, let me say, skewed. Surely that begs the question as to why.
Two rhetorical questions. Why hypothesize when Ted is here to provide the answer? And what is the difference between having an ‘exclusive’ deal with one and ‘boycotting’ the other.
I’d refer you to John’s post. Even in this, albeit hypothetical, scenario I cannot see why Ultima should be upset at getting a free advertisement. Certainly no reason for Ted to be SO upset
As indeed Which Kit? has no obligation to disclose its interests or editorial policy.
Were are these blatant accusations?
Where are the two quotations taken from?
As already stated, insofar as Ultima is concerned the only insinuation that I can see is from Ted’s own hand and is to the effect that his policy is against Kit Car (or if you wish to be pedantic, exclusively for Which Kit?)
The only question that’s been asked, in respect to justification, is Why?
As yet no answer has been forthcoming.
Den.
But your posting doesn’t hold water at any level:-
andycanam said:
You can't make "insinuations" and then wonder why people get upset.
I remember having a very scathing attack from Den when he felt I insinuated something.
Whatever interpretation is placed on what I said regarding Which Kit? coverage could never IMHO be taken, and certainly wasn’t intended to be taken, as an insinuation against Ultima. However, it seems to me that Ted himself has opened the debate by making assertions against me whilst admitting that his advertising strategy is, let me say, skewed. Surely that begs the question as to why.
andycanam said:
Maybe Ultima are boycotting Kit car or maybe they are just getting a deal from Which Kit for exclusive advertisement.....
Two rhetorical questions. Why hypothesize when Ted is here to provide the answer? And what is the difference between having an ‘exclusive’ deal with one and ‘boycotting’ the other.
andycanam said:
... if this was so, I would understand how Ultima and Which Kit would be upset at having their adverts copied.
I’d refer you to John’s post. Even in this, albeit hypothetical, scenario I cannot see why Ultima should be upset at getting a free advertisement. Certainly no reason for Ted to be SO upset
andycanam said:
However they have no obligation to explain their advertising strategy.
As indeed Which Kit? has no obligation to disclose its interests or editorial policy.
andycanam said:
The problem is there some blatent accuasations with challenges to come and defend them….
Were are these blatant accusations?
andycanam said:
….. but any attempt to do so results in claims that "you must be in on it as well" or "why are you upset if its not true" etc.
Where are the two quotations taken from?
andycanam said:
There comes a time when these attacks, snide remarks, insinuations etc must stop..... surelly that time has passed.
As already stated, insofar as Ultima is concerned the only insinuation that I can see is from Ted’s own hand and is to the effect that his policy is against Kit Car (or if you wish to be pedantic, exclusively for Which Kit?)
The only question that’s been asked, in respect to justification, is Why?
As yet no answer has been forthcoming.
Den.
kitcarman said:
Sorry Andy,
But your posting doesn’t hold water at any level:-
Two rhetorical questions. Why hypothesize when Ted is here to provide the answer? And what is the difference between having an ‘exclusive’ deal with one and ‘boycotting’ the other.
I’d refer you to John’s post. Even in this, albeit hypothetical, scenario I cannot see why Ultima should be upset at getting a free advertisement. Certainly no reason for Ted to be SO upset
andycanam said:
The problem is there some blatent accuasations with challenges to come and defend them….
Were are these blatant accusations?
andycanam said:
….. but any attempt to do so results in claims that "you must be in on it as well" or "why are you upset if its not true" etc.
Where are the two quotations taken from?
andycanam said:
There comes a time when these attacks, snide remarks, insinuations etc must stop..... surelly that time has passed.
The only question that’s been asked, in respect to justification, is Why?
As yet no answer has been forthcoming.
Den.
Den
I odviously don't agree with you and I think my comment do hold water.
I remember very vividly the "you must be in on it as well" finger being pointed at a poor guy trying to do a 'profesional' web site of a car you've condemned without even doing any investigation into it...... BTW did you appolagise to that guy?
Is this the kind of unbiasness that you hold close to your heart?
And I feel that you have clearly used the "why are you upset if its not true" catchphrase to Ultima here.
An example of what I would call a blatent accusation is whilst talking about the Ultima provided to nigel dean you say:-
"but to my cynical mind there’s something that smells fishy."
I mean, come on, can't you see that this little comment would upset, let alone adding that you know there must be 'some deal in place'.
On here you've had a go at RV dynamics, Merlin and now Ultima.... and yet you want their business....
Even if your intentions were not to have a dig you must remember these companies are all run by people, and that the pen is mighter than the sword and can cut deeper.
andycanam said:
Den
I odviously don't agree with you and I think my comment do hold water.
I’d be interested in hearing the view of others on this.
andycanam said:
I remember very vividly the "you must be in on it as well" finger being pointed at a poor guy trying to do a 'profesional' web site of a car you've condemned without even doing any investigation into it...... BTW did you appolagise to that guy?
Ahhhh!!! Crossed threads again when I thought we were talking about Ultima. Silly me.
andycanam said:
Is this the kind of unbiasness that you hold close to your heart?
Andy, I’m genuinely not trying to be evasive here, but I need the word ‘this’ defined in this sentence. Are we talking Ultima or are we off topic on Python or something else?
andycanam said:
And I feel that you have clearly used the "why are you upset if its not true" catchphrase to Ultima here.
Andy, please define ‘here’ in this context, because I can’t see anything remotely similar in this thread.
andycanam said:
An example of what I would call a blatent accusation is whilst talking about the Ultima provided to nigel dean you say:-
"but to my cynical mind there’s something that smells fishy."
Wacky has already made clear that he doesn’t regard those words as an allegation, let alone ‘a blatent accusation’.
andycanam said:
I mean, come on, can't you see that this little comment would upset, let alone adding that you know there must be 'some deal in place'.
Well it clearly did upset someone. That I accept. Are you saying that there wasn’t a deal in place? I thought there were at least three deals.
andycanam said:
On here you've had a go at RV dynamics, Merlin and now Ultima.... and yet you want their business.....
Emmm… I’ve not succeeded in 12 years, perhaps I’ve lost hope?
andycanam said:
Even if your intentions were not to have a dig you must remember these companies are all run by people, and that the pen is mighter than the sword and can cut deeper.
Perhaps I’ve had a dig and perhaps I might have good reason but the response…..
Ultima factory said:
. . . for the record Ultima Sports Ltd has never knowingly advertised in "Kit Car"
What Mr Tanner fails to inform the readers of the PH forum is that "Kit Car" shamelessly scans in adverts that are placed in "Which Kit" and places them in "Kit Car". . . to boost it's size. . . also in an attempt to fool the reader into believing that all kit car manufacturers support this magazine. . . . poorly reproduced in "Kit Car".
Makes you think about the validity of all the other statements made by Mr Tanner.
I’d say, and at least one other has noted, that this response seems somewhat disproportionate.
Den.
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