Question for Den.
Discussion
GTRClive said:
Dear Kitcarman, please do us all a Favour, Piss off and shut up. I and everyone else has had enough, of your wittering, so grow up and Phone a Friend.
I know you might be fed up of the bitching etc that's been going on, but to be fair to Den, the last such thread (this one) started out as a simple question about advertising and went on to a lighthearted joke. It was only when Ted @ Ultima posted that it became confrontational. And even then Den initially handled that very well and I believe is now addressing these issues with Ted privately.
The previous thread was started by BigRon. This could have easily enticed a pissing contest, but again remained civil, with Den replying to BigRon only after many others had already comented.
In fact the last controversial thread launched by Den was on the 24/10, 2 weeks ago.
Personally I would like to hear the views of Peter Filby as it can easily be construde at the mo that we have a one sided argument, but I would not want them posted here as that would involve tit for tat bitching.
Den might have originally been a right pain in the 
when he started posting his views, but I think you'll find that it is not Den, but others encouraging this action now. For example, your posting. How can you not expect a reaction by telling someone to "Piss off and shut up".
It's been said many times (and I'm sure will continue to be said), you don't have to read every thread!
I must ask (and I know this is controversial), but have you posted this because you own an Ultima?
With reference to Den, I like many others (I believe) thought that Den's initial postings and comments were often unprofessional and sometimes childish. I think I speak for many now when I say that he now acts in a much more rational manner, he doesn't initiate the 'attacks' and has generally gained an awful lot of respect from many on the sight.
In addition to this Den has a wealth of knowledge and has helped lots of people on the forum with many problems and issues. You might not need this help, but I know I do and I'm willing to bet that many others do too.
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Friday 7th November 11:56
kitcarman said:
Ahhhh!!! Crossed threads again when I thought we were talking about Ultima. Silly me.
andycanam said:
Is this the kind of unbiasness that you hold close to your heart?
Andy, I’m genuinely not trying to be evasive here, but I need the word ‘this’ defined in this sentence. Are we talking Ultima or are we off topic on Python or something else?
Den
Where did I suggest I was reffering only to your Ultima comments?.... I don't there is much to gain by opening new threads just to make a point, hence I made it here.
On the second bit the unbiasness I am clearly reffering to is your thread attacking some a cobra builder and his site..... I think this was a very biased attack promoted by your hate for someone and anything to do with him... There were no facts to even hint towards your claims and it was subsequently proved that you were wrong.
I personelly was very disapointed in you for that and think it was unprofessional that you didn't appolagise publicly.
Now I DON'T agree entirelly with GTRCLIVE, I think you should be here... I mean your an industry representative and having direct access to you is a bonus anywere... but for Kit car builders it's a real blessing.
However I do think your judgmental and quick to jump to conclusions.....
Maybe instead of asking people to extensivelly justify their responses to you, you should make your posts very precise to prevent people missunderstanding or missreading them.
andycanam said:
On the second bit the unbiasness I am clearly reffering to is your thread attacking some a cobra builder and his site..... I think this was a very biased attack promoted by your hate for someone and anything to do with him... There were no facts to even hint towards your claims and it was subsequently proved that you were wrong.
I personelly was very disapointed in you for that and think it was unprofessional that you didn't appolagise publicly.
Andy
I think I see where you are coming from.
I do agree that what you refer to above needs addressing, but I think you see what an asset Den actually is.
(I also think I'm being a bit rude talking about someone as a third person)
Mark and others,
Thank you for sticking up for me.
I came onto this forum primarily to correct the misunderstanding that seemed to be prevalent here that Which Kit? was a better and bigger selling publication and that its publisher was more professional than me.
Andy is right to say that I jump into the fray when I hear repetition of such phrases. For example, I did jump on Andy when he strongly implied that I had said things in Kit Car which had not in fact been said in Kit Car. The point was perhaps pedantic but was at the heart of my case which was that Kit Car contains truthful comment. The point was so fundamental to my cause that it couldn’t be let go.
My attack on Si’s Python web site raises very different issues. Andy came to the conclusion that I should have apologised, and he might be right, but it seems to me that such a demand should be reiterated on that thread and not crossed over to this one where it both confuses and inflames the very different issues of this thread.
This thread concerns advertising in Kit Car. I made what I thought was a poke at Fib’s which unwitting (but understandably) upset Ted. Now it’s Ted’s response that’s causing the questions to be raised, and not solely by me either. Why doesn’t Ted advertise in Kit Car? Also, why is he so cross about being given a free advertisement and why does he draw such broad and stark conclusions from it?
To correct a point, I’ve not taken this matter to Ted privately because, upon reflection, I thought that would leave his insinuations regarding my conduct too much ‘in the air’.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Friday 7th November 12:26
Thank you for sticking up for me.
I came onto this forum primarily to correct the misunderstanding that seemed to be prevalent here that Which Kit? was a better and bigger selling publication and that its publisher was more professional than me.
Andy is right to say that I jump into the fray when I hear repetition of such phrases. For example, I did jump on Andy when he strongly implied that I had said things in Kit Car which had not in fact been said in Kit Car. The point was perhaps pedantic but was at the heart of my case which was that Kit Car contains truthful comment. The point was so fundamental to my cause that it couldn’t be let go.
My attack on Si’s Python web site raises very different issues. Andy came to the conclusion that I should have apologised, and he might be right, but it seems to me that such a demand should be reiterated on that thread and not crossed over to this one where it both confuses and inflames the very different issues of this thread.
This thread concerns advertising in Kit Car. I made what I thought was a poke at Fib’s which unwitting (but understandably) upset Ted. Now it’s Ted’s response that’s causing the questions to be raised, and not solely by me either. Why doesn’t Ted advertise in Kit Car? Also, why is he so cross about being given a free advertisement and why does he draw such broad and stark conclusions from it?
To correct a point, I’ve not taken this matter to Ted privately because, upon reflection, I thought that would leave his insinuations regarding my conduct too much ‘in the air’.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Friday 7th November 12:26
kitcarman said:
Why doesn’t Ted advertise in Kit Car? Also, why is he so cross about being given a free advertisement and why does he draw such broad and stark conclusions from it?
As an advertising man (what a cock I hear you all cry
) I ought to point out some facts re advertising. 1) A company's media plan is its own business, and if they don't like the cut of a publication's jib it could be for any number of reasons. Media plans don't need to be justified. It might be a little surprising that Ultima tend to advertise officially in one publication only - the lesser one at that, eh Den
- but that is their choice. 2) Unofficial adverts placed by the publication are extremely dubious. An advertiser will probably see a lower quality ad reproduced (as the publication is unlikley to get original artwork) and maybe the advertiser wants full pages only for their brand or product? I used to work on the Bentley account, and it would have HURT the brand to have an ad scanned and put in an inappropriate publication (Ku Klux Klan Digest etc). It can have tremendous ramifications even if the intention is honourable (as I'm sure Den's is).
In fact, there could be a breach of copyright from a legal point of view, using logos and imagery from the original ad, which is dangerous for people reproducing ads illegally. It's always best to ask permission first. Most manufacturers should be overjoyed that Den is giving free ads in his publication, and will be happy to forward good artwork to him so that repro is good. But some won't, for whatever reason - and you have to respect that I suppose.
>> Edited by domster on Friday 7th November 17:20
domster said:
and it would have HURT the brand to have an ad scanned and put in an inappropriate publication (Ku Klux Klan Digest etc)....
Is there such a publication? Cause, you see, I've got all these old bedsheets I've been trying to get rid of and maybe I could make a few bob.......
Only once before have I been vilified for publishing a free advertisement.
Back in around 1999, Steve Hole (my advertising sales manager at the time) received a message from John Hoyle of NG who cancelled his advertising. I enquired as to why and was informed that it was a simple economic decision, based upon the fact that NG sales had been poor and ‘times were hard’.
Because NG had been a good customer with a good product. I resolved that, space permitting, I would run the advertisement FOC and did so in the very next issue.
I was astonished at the response. John wrote to me in very strong terms saying that he was very cross. I spoke to him on the ‘phone and wrote to him explaining that my intentions were honourable, indeed generous. I pleaded for an explanation as to why John was so cross with me. I never got a satisfactory answer.
A year or more later I was told that Fib’s had proposed a deal. The deal was that John was to receive free advertising in Which Kit? providing he cancelled his advertising with Kit Car.
I’d inadvertently . . . . ? ? ?
Den.
Back in around 1999, Steve Hole (my advertising sales manager at the time) received a message from John Hoyle of NG who cancelled his advertising. I enquired as to why and was informed that it was a simple economic decision, based upon the fact that NG sales had been poor and ‘times were hard’.
Because NG had been a good customer with a good product. I resolved that, space permitting, I would run the advertisement FOC and did so in the very next issue.
I was astonished at the response. John wrote to me in very strong terms saying that he was very cross. I spoke to him on the ‘phone and wrote to him explaining that my intentions were honourable, indeed generous. I pleaded for an explanation as to why John was so cross with me. I never got a satisfactory answer.
A year or more later I was told that Fib’s had proposed a deal. The deal was that John was to receive free advertising in Which Kit? providing he cancelled his advertising with Kit Car.
I’d inadvertently . . . . ? ? ?
Den.
Ferg said:
Well......I'd have a stern word with my eight year old for that sort of comment........
Your Eight year old would not have the understanding of life and the world in general, to make up his or her mind that the man in question is very self absorbed, self interested, and self important. I bet he loves this forum because all we seem to do is talk about him and his views.
Perhaps we could talk about cars and how they handle and how they look and not weather the owner of the company has ever had a run-in with Mr T.
Yes I understnd some of you might even like Mr T but guess what just disagree with him on one point and see how hard he comes down on you. in HIS words GOBSMACKED. or is that GODSMACKED, as he does tend to act like one at times.
GTRClive
I guess you chose to ignore some of what I posted.
I truely believe he is an asset to this forum.
As for your comments, I can honestly say that I do not see eye to eye with Den on many things. Although I don't really know him, I will email him and i'm not afraid to tell him what I think. Strangely I have never had him have a go at me.
Thank you for the warning.
I'll prepare myself for the 'Wrath of Tanner' now. 
Can we move on from your views now and talk about Kit Cars?
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Saturday 8th November 13:08
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Saturday 8th November 13:10
I guess you chose to ignore some of what I posted.
Ex-Biker said:
With reference to Den, I like many others (I believe) thought that Den's initial postings and comments were often unprofessional and sometimes childish. I think I speak for many now when I say that he now acts in a much more rational manner, he doesn't initiate the 'attacks' and has generally gained an awful lot of respect from many on the sight.
In addition to this Den has a wealth of knowledge and has helped lots of people on the forum with many problems and issues. You might not need this help, but I know I do and I'm willing to bet that many others do too.
I truely believe he is an asset to this forum.
As for your comments, I can honestly say that I do not see eye to eye with Den on many things. Although I don't really know him, I will email him and i'm not afraid to tell him what I think. Strangely I have never had him have a go at me.
Thank you for the warning.
I'll prepare myself for the 'Wrath of Tanner' now. GTRClive said:
. . . . to make up his or her mind that the man in question is very self absorbed, self interested, and self important. I bet he loves this forum because all we seem to do is talk about him and his views.
Can we move on from your views now and talk about Kit Cars?
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Saturday 8th November 13:08
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Saturday 8th November 13:10
Bible said:
A Time for Everything.
Everything that happens in this world happens at a time when God chooses. He sets the time for birth and the time for death,
the time for planting and the time for pulling up,
the time for killing and the time for healing,
the time for tearing down and the time for building.
He sets the time for sorrow and the time for joy,
the time for mourning and the time for dancing,
the time for making love and the time for not making love,
the time for kissing and the time for not kissing.
He sets the time for finding and the time for losing,
the time for saving and the time for throwing away,
the time for silence and the time for talk.
He sets the time for love and the time for hate,
the time for war and the time for peace.
Ecclesiastes Ch3 verses 1 to 8 (Good News translation)
In addition, I have noticed that in this world you find wickedness where justice ought to be.
v16.
Clive,
I came to this forum primarily to correct what I saw as erroneous views concerning me and my magazine.
I had to explain that those words of mine, that many found offensive, were in fact truthful. That having tried every other means, I had decided that the ‘time for war’ had come. I set out to correct the conundrum that wickedness was where justice ought to be in respect to Which Kit? coverage of this industry and not least because I had fallen victim.
In going to war, I faced the usual disadvantage that my adversary occupies the high ground and is dug-in. He’s taking no chances by keeping his head down and his gob shut. On the other hand I’ve exposed myself to great risks, suffered much criticism and made some tactical mistakes.
Having said this, I’ve achieved much in that
1. Which Kit? has stopped doing a lot of what I’ve exposed.
2. I’ve very much swung the balance in respect to advertising revenue because the truth viz-a-viz sales is now understood.
3. The margin of Kit Car’s lead in respect to sales has increased (despite my unorthodox methods).
In the process, and contrary to your assertion, I’ve accepted much criticism. Noted critical feedback and, as a result, have agreed certain reforms and improvements. However, there’s one area where I’ve refused to compromise. That’s when it’s been asserted that my truthfully exposing lies has been said to be ‘as bad’, ‘biased’, ‘dishonest’ or ‘inaccurate’. In these respects I’ve confronted three or four critics for what seem to me to be very obvious reasons.
I believe that eyes have been opened in respect to past and present injustices and I look forward to a new dawn, when it will be possible to believe at face value what’s printed in the industry’s magazines. Presently, because of one publisher’s vested interests we can’t even get beyond establishing whether or not certain products exist, let alone whether or not the claims made of them are accurate. To this extent, Northwood are correct to assert that ‘The kit car industry is in a mess’.
I’d be failing in my responsibility if I failed to bring order where there’s presently anarchy. Unfortunately for me, as in a normal war, the process of bringing justice and order appears to some to be more painful and disordered than leaving the injustice in-situ. It’s a tough call for the guy who’s faced with that responsibility.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Saturday 8th November 15:36
[quote=kitcarman]
I’d be failing in my responsibility if I failed to bring order where there’s presently anarchy. Unfortunately for me, as in a normal war, the process of bringing justice and order appears to some to be more painful and disordered than leaving the injustice in-situ. It’s a tough call for the guy who’s faced with that responsibility.
Den.
quote]
Did you crib those lines from "Superman" Den???
I’d be failing in my responsibility if I failed to bring order where there’s presently anarchy. Unfortunately for me, as in a normal war, the process of bringing justice and order appears to some to be more painful and disordered than leaving the injustice in-situ. It’s a tough call for the guy who’s faced with that responsibility.
Den.
quote]
Did you crib those lines from "Superman" Den???
GTRClive, MY 8 year old is and will continue to be a person of more understanding and less self-importance than your good self. For this I am enormously grateful.
Worry about your own shallow life and leave others to speak for themselves.
Oh and I know it's petty, but she can spell 'whether' as well.
>> Edited by Ferg on Saturday 8th November 22:16
Worry about your own shallow life and leave others to speak for themselves.
Oh and I know it's petty, but she can spell 'whether' as well.
>> Edited by Ferg on Saturday 8th November 22:16
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