Question for Den.
Discussion
GTRClive said:
Dear Kitcarman, please do us all a Favour......
It seems clear (Clive) that you don't speak for ALL of us. Since posting your somewhat offensive comment to Den you've had negative replies from Ferg, Pies, Ex-Biker, meeja and now myself.
Here's a crazy idea. No, bear with me please, this is going somewhere.
Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe you're in the minority or perhaps your ego won't allow that?
Perchance you should take your advice and (to use your own phrase) piss off?
Just a thought.
(PS I wouldn't normally stoop to such language but as you used it first I assume it's the sort of thing you understand)
>> Edited by Flintstone on Saturday 8th November 23:40
Ok Clive, I suppose that was a bit strong and I apologise for the language. It was late, I was tired, etc. I'm sorry.
But your attack on Den was a bit strong too. We all know that :whispersbehindhand: where Filby is concerned Den has a bit of a blind spot however if you consider what Den has been through as a result of Mr Filby's actions it's no surprise. Christ, If I'd had half of it I'd be banged up inside for doing something nasty to the man.
And Den has a point (well many actually and he'll tell you them ALL if you give him half a chance), there are certain irregularities in the way WK? operate. This all came out of the bag three or four months ago and Mr Filby has not once sought to give his side of things. He even ignores direct requests from his readers to do so. The way I and quite a few others see it Den has done us a favour even if his methods seem a little, well, eccentric sometimes
As others have said before if we don't like the topic under discussion just don't read it. Works for me.
Friends?
>> Edited by Flintstone on Sunday 9th November 10:53
But your attack on Den was a bit strong too. We all know that :whispersbehindhand: where Filby is concerned Den has a bit of a blind spot however if you consider what Den has been through as a result of Mr Filby's actions it's no surprise. Christ, If I'd had half of it I'd be banged up inside for doing something nasty to the man.
And Den has a point (well many actually and he'll tell you them ALL if you give him half a chance), there are certain irregularities in the way WK? operate. This all came out of the bag three or four months ago and Mr Filby has not once sought to give his side of things. He even ignores direct requests from his readers to do so. The way I and quite a few others see it Den has done us a favour even if his methods seem a little, well, eccentric sometimes
As others have said before if we don't like the topic under discussion just don't read it. Works for me.
Friends?
>> Edited by Flintstone on Sunday 9th November 10:53
Flintstone said:
We all know that :whispersbehindhand: where Filby is concerned Den has a bit of a blind spot. . . .
On the other hand, he might just be seeing things all too clearly. I’ve said it before, but perhaps the silence is due to Fib’s being like a rabbit caught in the headlamps of an oncoming
. Perhaps he doesn’t know what to say or where to run because he’s completely dazzled. Flintstone said:
. . . .however if you consider what Den has been through as a result of Mr Filby's actions it's no surprise.
Let’s not us forget that (I believe that) it’s not only me that’s been put out of business through upsetting Fib’s ego either. I’m determined that it’s not going to happen to anybody else. Furthermore the whispers continue behind the scenes. There are manufacturers who’ve never (or hardly ever) spoken to me, yet they appear to have reached conclusions about me. So, I wonder what they’ve heard and from where.
Flintstone said:
And Den has a point (well many actually. . . .), there are certain irregularities in the way WK? operate.
It’s my hunch that one of those ‘irregularities’ is a covert subversive smear campaign that has hindered my career as a publisher. This is completely unacceptable to me given that his overt smear campaign, which he admitted, made it impossible for me to operate in my primary and chosen (and preferable) career as a kit car designer and purveyor.
The key to the success of the covert campaign is Fib’s pointing to those ‘offensive’ acts that I’ve perpetrated whilst convincing members of this industry to overlook the matter that caused my reaction in the first place. In other words he’s accused me of being the protagonist when in fact each and every one of my ‘aggressive’ acts has been 'defensive'. It seems to me that Fib’s thrives in the subtlety of interpretation and appears to have successfully smeared my character and reputation in the eyes of some.
My reaction was to broadcast the truth in respect to the legal action, it’s outcome and the reason that it was necessary in bold simplistic terms which are completely devoid of subtlety. The challenge to their reader is to accept them or reject them. I simply haven’t left any shades of grey. I believe that was bold and courageous and, you know what, to this day I cannot think of a better way I could have taken this bull by the horns.
My present difficulties, on this thread, are that Fib’s has convinced others. It seems that he can rely on them to defend his position and thus engineer a situation in which if I attack him, I’m seen to be attacking those who’ve been taken-in by his charm. Not that I think that it’s actually charm. It’s a truly astonishing ability to tell lies with impunity. For example “reach up to 50,000” and “Racing ahead in 2003” and things I know he’s said about me and Tom (and Steve Hole when he worked for me) concerning the integrity and motivation of me and my staff.
My final word in this post is that I harbour no animosity toward Fib’s supporters. One only has to look at back issues of Kit Car to see that every manufacturer is treated fairly, even kindly, irrespective of their perceived allegiances. If given the opportunity my staff would attend both Ultima and Marlin WITHOUT HESITATION to feature their products in generous and encouraging terms.
There is bitterness in the battle I have with Fib’s. But it stops there. None of it, where it reflects on third parties, gets into the pages of Kit Car.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 10th November 01:06
Flintstone
minority of people who post? or people that read?..... I've seen a lot of people come on here and actually open a new thread to odject.....
Maybe these people are taking the advice and pissing off, maybe they have nothing to offer, but then maybe they do, we will never know.
I also suspect there are many that read but are silent.
Personely I want all to stay....
Den
You say your at war (and I must say it looks that way)..... However your enemy isn't here!
or is this a veiled disguise for a hostile takeover
So lets get back to the
and leave this topic behind
before we wear our 
out by all our 
.
minority of people who post? or people that read?..... I've seen a lot of people come on here and actually open a new thread to odject.....
Maybe these people are taking the advice and pissing off, maybe they have nothing to offer, but then maybe they do, we will never know.
I also suspect there are many that read but are silent.
Personely I want all to stay....
Den
You say your at war (and I must say it looks that way)..... However your enemy isn't here!
or is this a veiled disguise for a hostile takeover
So lets get back to the
and leave this topic behind before we wear our out by all our . kitcarman said:
There is bitterness in the battle I have with Fib’s. But it stops there. None of it, where it reflects on third parties, gets into the pages of Kit Car.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 10th November 01:06
This is the important bit for me.
One more point before I shut up... is this site not an internet car magazine?
Point taken Andy. The silent majority?
That could work both ways of course. Maybe there are people who agree with what Den says, are happy for him to have brought Filby's shennanigans out into the open but also choose to stay silent.
>> Edited by Flintstone on Monday 10th November 09:56
That could work both ways of course. Maybe there are people who agree with what Den says, are happy for him to have brought Filby's shennanigans out into the open but also choose to stay silent.
>> Edited by Flintstone on Monday 10th November 09:56
Can I just point out that there is a kit car forum that is refreshingly free of any of the shennanigans regarding Den and Fibs. This is courtesy of John at Madabout.
On the other hand, MadAbout is fairly quiet at the mo, but if you take away the postings that have reference to the bitchin' PH would be pretty quiet too.
Daft question: Why are 'soaps' so popular?
Re: The silent majority - Hi Terry, talk again on Sat.
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Monday 10th November 12:13
On the other hand, MadAbout is fairly quiet at the mo, but if you take away the postings that have reference to the bitchin' PH would be pretty quiet too.
Daft question: Why are 'soaps' so popular?
Re: The silent majority - Hi Terry, talk again on Sat.
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Monday 10th November 12:13
What we're missing are some posts from Filby supporters? Surely someone out there is a mate of the guy. So far only posts from Den himself, people who agree with him and people who are fed up with the entire spat. So speak up Filby fans! If not, I guess we must assume Den is in the right!
(and then can we stop this B
ks?)
(and then can we stop this B
ks?)Andy,
I’m very glad that you don’t want anybody to P155 off, because neither do I (especially not me
!).
A big deal is made about ‘my war’
drowning out the normal functioning of this forum. However, that’s simply not the case according to my limited investigations. I looked back over the 100 most recently used threads (went back 5 pages worth) and noted that only 10 (or less) were concerning my argument with Fib’s. Of those, a fair proportion were forum members observations (for example ‘WTF’ and ‘Competition for Den and Peter’
) or were clearly light-hearted (for example ‘Den Tanner gives discount shock’ and ‘Oxygen’
) or are extremely well received by all participants (like ‘Kit Car Action Days’). I believe that Ex-Biker made the point that only one thread was started by me and that was simply to inform that new wholesale statistics indicated that Which Kit? sales had fallen
.
My point is that ‘my war’ is hardly stopping the normal activity of this forum
. I don’t know what it was like before I started, but I suspect that things were less 
controversial and probably quieter. Indeed, I think PetrolTed confirmed that I’d brought a little life to this corner of his domain. He also said that he was getting bored with my rants, which is why I’ve largely avoided starting threads but have stayed around to answer questions.
Yes, I’ve an agenda which I’ve forwarded through those answers, but I believe it’s fair to say that I’ve made many fresh observations rather than digging up old ground.
You and others say this is a one sided war, but that’s my opponent’s choice. We all know that Fib’s is listening and each one of us have drawn (or are in a position to draw) our conclusions from the fact that he’s been deafeningly silent
. I maintain that he’s silent because he has nothing to say in his defence.
In response to your pleading for us all to get back to talking about cars, I’m all for that, but talking about magazines
and cars aren’t mutually exclusive. Finally, I believe there is a difference between what is published
on a live moderated forum such as this and what is published in magazine. The distinction, I fear
, would take rather a lot of space to define.
Den
I’m very glad that you don’t want anybody to P155 off, because neither do I (especially not me
!). A big deal is made about ‘my war’
drowning out the normal functioning of this forum. However, that’s simply not the case according to my limited investigations. I looked back over the 100 most recently used threads (went back 5 pages worth) and noted that only 10 (or less) were concerning my argument with Fib’s. Of those, a fair proportion were forum members observations (for example ‘WTF’ and ‘Competition for Den and Peter’) or were clearly light-hearted (for example ‘Den Tanner gives discount shock’ and ‘Oxygen’) or are extremely well received by all participants (like ‘Kit Car Action Days’). I believe that Ex-Biker made the point that only one thread was started by me and that was simply to inform that new wholesale statistics indicated that Which Kit? sales had fallen. My point is that ‘my war’ is hardly stopping the normal activity of this forum
. I don’t know what it was like before I started, but I suspect that things were less controversial and probably quieter. Indeed, I think PetrolTed confirmed that I’d brought a little life to this corner of his domain. He also said that he was getting bored with my rants, which is why I’ve largely avoided starting threads but have stayed around to answer questions. Yes, I’ve an agenda which I’ve forwarded through those answers, but I believe it’s fair to say that I’ve made many fresh observations rather than digging up old ground. You and others say this is a one sided war
, but that’s my opponent’s choice. We all know that Fib’s is listening and each one of us have drawn (or are in a position to draw) our conclusions from the fact that he’s been deafeningly silent. I maintain that he’s silent because he has nothing to say in his defence. In response to your pleading for us all to get back to talking about cars, I’m all for that, but talking about magazines
and cars aren’t mutually exclusive. Finally, I believe there is a difference between what is published on a live moderated forum such as this and what is published in magazine. The distinction, I fear, would take rather a lot of space to define. Den
Ok , so I admit it , I was a Filby supporter , I even wrote a E-mail in support , unfortunately when it was printed only the second half of the letter was esentially as i write it , the first half was very different! . It was only by fortune that I was sent a copy of it , otherwise I would not have known for 5 months . That was when I started to believe there might have been some truth in Dens 'Rantings'.
Dave Ingerson
Brisbane
Dave Ingerson
Brisbane
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