Three wheeler Cabin Scooter Design
Discussion
KDIcarmad said:
I have been debating what a scooter car is a friend. What defines a car as a Scooter car design?
I added to this question what stops it being a Cyclecar?
It has to be more than the size of engine, as the Smart cars would a scooter design. Clearly a Smart is a micro car. After a hour we came up with this....
A scooter car must use an engine under 650cc (over this it's a Cyclecar/micro).
It should use a scooter gearbox (CVT gearbox).
It must use motorcycle wheels and tyres. (Or go-kart wheels and tyre).
It should be a simple design.
Easy to drive, like a scooter
We had a lot trouble agreeing on the max engine size, instead of length or weight. Gearbox was a given for me, as was easy to drive. Wheels were something I felt was a little limiting, but the use of Go-Kart wheels seems a good idea. Tell me what you all think.
Reading these they look like the first line of the design note for a race series.
Go cart wheels are becoming less and less usable on our roads because of the rubbish surfaces all over everywhere. Major problems with such a small diameter wheels. Equally brakes and so on very tricky to manufacture for road use. I added to this question what stops it being a Cyclecar?
It has to be more than the size of engine, as the Smart cars would a scooter design. Clearly a Smart is a micro car. After a hour we came up with this....
A scooter car must use an engine under 650cc (over this it's a Cyclecar/micro).
It should use a scooter gearbox (CVT gearbox).
It must use motorcycle wheels and tyres. (Or go-kart wheels and tyre).
It should be a simple design.
Easy to drive, like a scooter
We had a lot trouble agreeing on the max engine size, instead of length or weight. Gearbox was a given for me, as was easy to drive. Wheels were something I felt was a little limiting, but the use of Go-Kart wheels seems a good idea. Tell me what you all think.
Reading these they look like the first line of the design note for a race series.
I think we should remember that the Mini only came into existence because Leonard Lord demanded a car from Alec Issigonis, that could drive the bubble cars ff the roads. He hated bubble cars, which were proliferating in the mid 1950.s. He actually demanded a car that would "Get rid of those awful bubble cars" He got one.
The car Issigonis designed, single handed, not only got rid of the bubble cars, it was also unarguably the greatest packaging of any car of `all time. And arguably the most influential.
No one has ever bettered the two box Mini shape for vehicle efficiency in space use to this day. And every car manufacturer copied the front wheel drive layout and tried to emulate the qualities of the Mini. Few actually succeeded.
I am genuinely surprised that there is no Berkeley replacement in full production. Frankly I have yet to see a better very small car than the Berkeley to this day. All cars are getting bigger today. Manufacturers seem uninterested in very small cars.
I frequently park my classic Mini Cooper Cabriolet with a K series 1800 big valve engine between my neighbours Fiat 500 and my partners BMW Mini Cooper.
My car will give both of the a very good run and carry just as many passengers and equal their fuel consumption at equivalent speeds and it is 40 years older than these two cars. Even my 1340 A series Mini would give these two a decent test.
Surely we should be looking at the Berkeley frame as a possible recreation. With a 750 or 1000 cc set up it would fly about and handle beautifully. As I have said before on PH I would happily drift a Berkeley around corners. I would not do that in most scootercars. Roll centre and centre of gravity is too high and track is not wide enough IMO. Inherently tricky to slide with those drawbacks.
I really an surprised no car manufacturer is prepared to offer a really small drivable car. As an Accountant I know why. The costs of manufacture are almost as big as making a bigger more easily tested safer crumple zone fitted car and the manufacturers see the impact requirements as very tricky to achieve.
Probably why the experts say that the smart car makes no money. If you look at the selling price you would expect it to be profitable. Apparently not.
Steffan said:
KDIcarmad said:
I have been debating what a scooter car is a friend. What defines a car as a Scooter car design?
I added to this question what stops it being a Cyclecar?
It has to be more than the size of engine, as the Smart cars would a scooter design. Clearly a Smart is a micro car. After a hour we came up with this....
A scooter car must use an engine under 650cc (over this it's a Cyclecar/micro).
It should use a scooter gearbox (CVT gearbox).
It must use motorcycle wheels and tyres. (Or go-kart wheels and tyre).
It should be a simple design.
Easy to drive, like a scooter
We had a lot trouble agreeing on the max engine size, instead of length or weight. Gearbox was a given for me, as was easy to drive. Wheels were something I felt was a little limiting, but the use of Go-Kart wheels seems a good idea. Tell me what you all think.
Reading these they look like the first line of the design note for a race series.
Go cart wheels are becoming less and less usable on our roads because of the rubbish surfaces all over everywhere. Major problems with such a small diameter wheels. Equally brakes and so on very tricky to manufacture for road use. I added to this question what stops it being a Cyclecar?
It has to be more than the size of engine, as the Smart cars would a scooter design. Clearly a Smart is a micro car. After a hour we came up with this....
A scooter car must use an engine under 650cc (over this it's a Cyclecar/micro).
It should use a scooter gearbox (CVT gearbox).
It must use motorcycle wheels and tyres. (Or go-kart wheels and tyre).
It should be a simple design.
Easy to drive, like a scooter
We had a lot trouble agreeing on the max engine size, instead of length or weight. Gearbox was a given for me, as was easy to drive. Wheels were something I felt was a little limiting, but the use of Go-Kart wheels seems a good idea. Tell me what you all think.
Reading these they look like the first line of the design note for a race series.
I think we should remember that the Mini only came into existence because Leonard Lord demanded a car from Alec Issigonis, that could drive the bubble cars ff the roads. He hated bubble cars, which were proliferating in the mid 1950.s. He actually demanded a car that would "Get rid of those awful bubble cars" He got one.
The car Issigonis designed, single handed, not only got rid of the bubble cars, it was also unarguably the greatest packaging of any car of `all time. And arguably the most influential.
No one has ever bettered the two box Mini shape for vehicle efficiency in space use to this day. And every car manufacturer copied the front wheel drive layout and tried to emulate the qualities of the Mini. Few actually succeeded.
I am genuinely surprised that there is no Berkeley replacement in full production. Frankly I have yet to see a better very small car than the Berkeley to this day. All cars are getting bigger today. Manufacturers seem uninterested in very small cars.
I frequently park my classic Mini Cooper Cabriolet with a K series 1800 big valve engine between my neighbours Fiat 500 and my partners BMW Mini Cooper.
My car will give both of the a very good run and carry just as many passengers and equal their fuel consumption at equivalent speeds and it is 40 years older than these two cars. Even my 1340 A series Mini would give these two a decent test.
Surely we should be looking at the Berkeley frame as a possible recreation. With a 750 or 1000 cc set up it would fly about and handle beautifully. As I have said before on PH I would happily drift a Berkeley around corners. I would not do that in most scootercars. Roll centre and centre of gravity is too high and track is not wide enough IMO. Inherently tricky to slide with those drawbacks.
I really an surprised no car manufacturer is prepared to offer a really small drivable car. As an Accountant I know why. The costs of manufacture are almost as big as making a bigger more easily tested safer crumple zone fitted car and the manufacturers see the impact requirements as very tricky to achieve.
Probably why the experts say that the smart car makes no money. If you look at the selling price you would expect it to be profitable. Apparently not.
As to the reason no car makes is doing this, look at the Smart Roadster. A small sports car that I liked, but made very little money for Smart. Any new Berkley car would need to sell a lot better. Before you bring up the Suzuki Cappuccino and Honda Beat I will point out these were only built in small numbers to fit a set of rules for Tokyo. Have you looked at the topic on the cost of setting up a kit car? They put it around £100,000 to £500,000!
An interesting point, I understan the Peel P50 and Trident are going to put back in to production. That gives me hope.
As to some of you points on scooter car designs watch this space.....
As an ex-Smart Roadster owner, I can only suggest it didn't sell well because it was fundamentally flawed.
You can't just take pre-existing subassemblies from another vehicle and repackage them in a new body shell expecting the resulting product to somehow be 'sporty.' I learnt an expensive lesson...
You can't just take pre-existing subassemblies from another vehicle and repackage them in a new body shell expecting the resulting product to somehow be 'sporty.' I learnt an expensive lesson...
dxg said:
As an ex-Smart Roadster owner, I can only suggest it didn't sell well because it was fundamentally flawed.
You can't just take pre-existing subassemblies from another vehicle and repackage them in a new body shell expecting the resulting product to somehow be 'sporty.' I learnt an expensive lesson...
Ain't that the truth. I am old enough to remember the rebodied BMC 1100/1300 called the Allegro. Better known as the Allagro because it was a complete disaster as a car. Lost all the qualities of the 1100/1300 and contributed none of its own. It was sYou can't just take pre-existing subassemblies from another vehicle and repackage them in a new body shell expecting the resulting product to somehow be 'sporty.' I learnt an expensive lesson...
tee. Absolute crapper.Similarly the Austin 3 litre which employed the body section of the 1800 Landcrab complete again by BMC. Again so bad I think they built less than 10,000 cars.
There are countless others. As an Accountant I appreciate the easy and comfortable Business spreadsheet and sales forecast such a project produces. Problem is the cars themselves were appalling. Demonstrates false economies better than anything else I know.
Steffan said:
Surely we should be looking at the Berkeley frame as a possible recreation. With a 750 or 1000 cc set up it would fly about and handle beautifully. As I have said before on PH I would happily drift a Berkeley around corners. I would not do that in most scootercars. Roll centre and centre of gravity is too high and track is not wide enough IMO. Inherently tricky to slide with those drawbacks.
I really an surprised no car manufacturer is prepared to offer a really small drivable car. As an Accountant I know why. The costs of manufacture are almost as big as making a bigger more easily tested safer crumple zone fitted car and the manufacturers see the impact requirements as very tricky to achieve.
Probably why the experts say that the smart car makes no money. If you look at the selling price you would expect it to be profitable. Apparently not.
I found this on the web today and would put it forwards as answer to your high roll and gravity center. I really an surprised no car manufacturer is prepared to offer a really small drivable car. As an Accountant I know why. The costs of manufacture are almost as big as making a bigger more easily tested safer crumple zone fitted car and the manufacturers see the impact requirements as very tricky to achieve.
Probably why the experts say that the smart car makes no money. If you look at the selling price you would expect it to be profitable. Apparently not.
From the cutter away the engine and most of the mass/weight is low down in the car. The Avolette was build in France around 1956-8. Below is a brochure show the claimed range....
The couple seem not to have been build, apart from this Paris 1956 show car which I think is it...
Very cute, an update of this any one... Yes/No.
Only if the cost were right, but I feel this and Berkley update would be fun! Could this sell in any numbers?
Yes I do agree this, I think French, cat has possibilities. The French have always been three wheelers in every way!
In another post on PH on the Detling show, I am pushing this idea but it doesn't seem to grab many people. Except me and you!
There is real potential. But as Den Tanner says on that post the KC business is not doing well and he should know.
I cannot take on another project with ten cars and five unbuilt kits even my friends think I am doolally and SWMBO is ready to strike. So I will be finishing at least six cars this year and I cannot do more than that.
I am a good example of appetite exceeding judgement physically, mentally and financially. And long may it continue.
But not just yet even I think five marriages is enough for anybody.
In another post on PH on the Detling show, I am pushing this idea but it doesn't seem to grab many people. Except me and you!
There is real potential. But as Den Tanner says on that post the KC business is not doing well and he should know.
I cannot take on another project with ten cars and five unbuilt kits even my friends think I am doolally and SWMBO is ready to strike. So I will be finishing at least six cars this year and I cannot do more than that.
I am a good example of appetite exceeding judgement physically, mentally and financially. And long may it continue.
But not just yet even I think five marriages is enough for anybody.
Can an body add to the imformation on this
This is the Feora, created in Los Angeles (USA) in about 1982 by Chuck Ophorst. Powered by a 175cc Honda engine the vehicle had a fibre glass body that resembls a 1950’s aeroplane. Access to the vehicle, as can be seen is via a lift up canopy door. A top speed of 92mph was claimed, I believed that the vehicle never went into production due to high costs.
Does anyone know more? I like the design and would like to see it in the fibre glass. I hope someone knows more!
This is the Feora, created in Los Angeles (USA) in about 1982 by Chuck Ophorst. Powered by a 175cc Honda engine the vehicle had a fibre glass body that resembls a 1950’s aeroplane. Access to the vehicle, as can be seen is via a lift up canopy door. A top speed of 92mph was claimed, I believed that the vehicle never went into production due to high costs.
Does anyone know more? I like the design and would like to see it in the fibre glass. I hope someone knows more!
Setting up today at Stoneleigh I was lucky enough to get an early look at the Razor.
All I can say is IT'S WELL WORTH LOOKING AT! Cracking job, not cheap but it looks great and definably one to consider. If you're remotely interested in trikes or small cars you really should go and have a look this bank holiday weekend at Stoneleigh. I'd be gobsmacked if they don't take a few orders tomorrow.
All I can say is IT'S WELL WORTH LOOKING AT! Cracking job, not cheap but it looks great and definably one to consider. If you're remotely interested in trikes or small cars you really should go and have a look this bank holiday weekend at Stoneleigh. I'd be gobsmacked if they don't take a few orders tomorrow.
qdos said:
Setting up today at Stoneleigh I was lucky enough to get an early look at the Razor.
All I can say is IT'S WELL WORTH LOOKING AT! Cracking job, not cheap but it looks great and definably one to consider. If you're remotely interested in trikes or small cars you really should go and have a look this bank holiday weekend at Stoneleigh. I'd be gobsmacked if they don't take a few orders tomorrow.
Good to hear such positive comments and this is one of the cars I will be taking a good look at when enjoying Stoneleigh this weekend. All I can say is IT'S WELL WORTH LOOKING AT! Cracking job, not cheap but it looks great and definably one to consider. If you're remotely interested in trikes or small cars you really should go and have a look this bank holiday weekend at Stoneleigh. I'd be gobsmacked if they don't take a few orders tomorrow.
I have a good feeling there are a lot if new ideas coming out on Kit Cars and I really think the manufacturers are taking on board the need to invest and create new designs and the results are coming in.
See you there qdos I want some bits from you for my Midas asap and a discussion on your latest ideas is always informative.
I do hope the weather holds for the families and the various new products from Stuart Mills of MEV fame and other manufacturers really grab the market. They should!
Steffan said:
I do hope the weather holds for the families and the various new products from Stuart Mills of MEV fame and other manufacturers really grab the market. They should!
There's plenty of covered exhibition space in 2 show halls and then there's plenty of trade stands in a couple of other large halls too. Outside there's more and no end of clubs. What more could anyone ask for?If people are remotely interested in Kit Cars there's no real excuse not to be at this show There's the Razor, Triking MEV RTR and ECO EXO at this show that I'm aware of so far showing trikes
Edited by qdos on Sunday 6th May 01:46
Not really scooter, but thought it might be of interest. Last weeks Gadget Show World Tour (C5 tonight, various repeats through week, check tvguide.co.uk) showed brief glimpse of Trike that will be featured in tonights show; didn't immediately recognise it.
@qdos: roughly how much is the Razor? I really hope it succeeds - it might help show that the market is there when the product's right.
@qdos: roughly how much is the Razor? I really hope it succeeds - it might help show that the market is there when the product's right.
Just been to Stoneleigh qdos is right the Razor is quite outstanding and exceptionally well made and well finished. These boys have been racing three wheelers for many years and the Razor incorporates all the lessons.
Superb cars if you are looking for a three wheeler with exceptional performance and handling. I would check this out immediately. Best three wheeler I have seen in years and these really handle well. And a very pretty and fully weatherproof car made by really knowledgeable enthusiasts. Got to be worth a look.
Superb cars if you are looking for a three wheeler with exceptional performance and handling. I would check this out immediately. Best three wheeler I have seen in years and these really handle well. And a very pretty and fully weatherproof car made by really knowledgeable enthusiasts. Got to be worth a look.
Mabbx said:
Did anyone get a price on the Razor kit out of interest ??
Comprehensive kit £4950+ Vat see: www.razorcars.co.uk Exceptional value too!Hmmm - looks really high quality and well built but I'm struggling with the target audience here?
Thing is, I always thought with trikes you were going for small footprint to get akin to bike experience on car license and the whole bike fun factor - i.e. open to elements (bit like a 7 on aero screens). With completely enclosed top this becomes a very small, very enclosed, fixed head BEC. With no mod cons whatsoever. No ventilation or air con. no wipers. and yes protected from elements but I wouldn't want to be out in the wet without having given a healthy dose of Rain X to the screen outside AND inside (cos it's likely to mist up). And it's already tipping in at 500kg so there's not really room to add those things realistically. It's the equivalent of making my V8 Robin Hood permanently fixed head - that frankly would be lunacy and would massively impact on the going out for a blast factor for me. Yes, I'd be infinitely more comfortable going round the M25 but I wouldn't want to be queuing in 30 degrees @ Le Mans in that!! (and having been there in a P4 I can tell you it's NOT nice)
All just my own opinion but I think this thing desperately needs a Can Am option else I can't see it being around for long. I mean, do Grinnall do a permanent fixed head? Pretty sure they would've after all this time if demand was there...
Thing is, I always thought with trikes you were going for small footprint to get akin to bike experience on car license and the whole bike fun factor - i.e. open to elements (bit like a 7 on aero screens). With completely enclosed top this becomes a very small, very enclosed, fixed head BEC. With no mod cons whatsoever. No ventilation or air con. no wipers. and yes protected from elements but I wouldn't want to be out in the wet without having given a healthy dose of Rain X to the screen outside AND inside (cos it's likely to mist up). And it's already tipping in at 500kg so there's not really room to add those things realistically. It's the equivalent of making my V8 Robin Hood permanently fixed head - that frankly would be lunacy and would massively impact on the going out for a blast factor for me. Yes, I'd be infinitely more comfortable going round the M25 but I wouldn't want to be queuing in 30 degrees @ Le Mans in that!! (and having been there in a P4 I can tell you it's NOT nice)
All just my own opinion but I think this thing desperately needs a Can Am option else I can't see it being around for long. I mean, do Grinnall do a permanent fixed head? Pretty sure they would've after all this time if demand was there...
Edited by smash on Monday 7th May 19:32
smash said:
Hmmm - looks really high quality and well built but I'm struggling with the target audience here?
Thing is, I always thought with trikes you were going for small footprint to get akin to bike experience on car license and the whole bike fun factor - i.e. open to elements (bit like a 7 on aero screens). With completely enclosed top this becomes a very small, very enclosed, fixed head BEC. With no mod cons whatsoever. No ventilation or air con. no wipers. and yes protected from elements but I wouldn't want to be out in the wet without having given a healthy dose of Rain X to the screen outside AND inside (cos it's likely to mist up). And it's already tipping in at 500kg so there's not really room to add those things realistically. It's the equivalent of making my V8 Robin Hood permanently fixed head - that frankly would be lunacy and would massively impact on the going out for a blast factor for me. Yes, I'd be infinitely more comfortable going round the M25 but I wouldn't want to be queuing in 30 degrees @ Le Mans in that!! (and having been there in a P4 I can tell you it's NOT nice)
All just my own opinion but I think this thing desperately needs a Can Am option else I can't see it being around for long. I mean, do Grinnall do a permanent fixed head? Pretty sure they would've after all this time if demand was there...
has wipers, legally has to have them to boot.Thing is, I always thought with trikes you were going for small footprint to get akin to bike experience on car license and the whole bike fun factor - i.e. open to elements (bit like a 7 on aero screens). With completely enclosed top this becomes a very small, very enclosed, fixed head BEC. With no mod cons whatsoever. No ventilation or air con. no wipers. and yes protected from elements but I wouldn't want to be out in the wet without having given a healthy dose of Rain X to the screen outside AND inside (cos it's likely to mist up). And it's already tipping in at 500kg so there's not really room to add those things realistically. It's the equivalent of making my V8 Robin Hood permanently fixed head - that frankly would be lunacy and would massively impact on the going out for a blast factor for me. Yes, I'd be infinitely more comfortable going round the M25 but I wouldn't want to be queuing in 30 degrees @ Le Mans in that!! (and having been there in a P4 I can tell you it's NOT nice)
All just my own opinion but I think this thing desperately needs a Can Am option else I can't see it being around for long. I mean, do Grinnall do a permanent fixed head? Pretty sure they would've after all this time if demand was there...
Edited by smash on Monday 7th May 19:32
smash said:
Doh! 
And now I've looked again they're bloody obvious as well...
It is a quality piece of kit - love the interior desing - reminds of a Bond Bug!
But....still say no open top option is big mistake.
I would imagine it'll take very, very little effort to create a second lid sans bubble if demand so takes them! I'm one of those odd people that would way prefer the hard top with a promise of no top, than no top with a promise of hard top! And now I've looked again they're bloody obvious as well...It is a quality piece of kit - love the interior desing - reminds of a Bond Bug!
But....still say no open top option is big mistake.
Smash I would strongly advise talking to the guys who are real experts on this field, I have been building and driving three wheelers since 1962 and they can run rings around me. I do know it is MSVA tested not IVA another bonus.
The roof is a lift up design in fact so I can see no reason why a soft top could not be designed indeed I did discuss that possibility with the owners who were receptive.
They are a very approachable father and son team who have their own engineering works and frankly I cannot see a soft top not being available if you ask. Got to be worth a call.
The roof is a lift up design in fact so I can see no reason why a soft top could not be designed indeed I did discuss that possibility with the owners who were receptive.
They are a very approachable father and son team who have their own engineering works and frankly I cannot see a soft top not being available if you ask. Got to be worth a call.
KDIcarmad just a note to you, with your three wheeler interest.
The Razor is a fantastic car just as qdos said earlier on here. I viewed it at Stoneleigh today and it is by far the best three wheeler I have seen. Very small and light, very well proportioned and the rear wheel really looks part of the car, not a bike unit tagged on.
These boys are really cooking on gas.
I have yet to drive it, but with the engineering background and the racing knowledge, this is head and shoulders above any other Kit I have seen in years.
I would suggest a look ASAP: you will want one!
The Razor is a fantastic car just as qdos said earlier on here. I viewed it at Stoneleigh today and it is by far the best three wheeler I have seen. Very small and light, very well proportioned and the rear wheel really looks part of the car, not a bike unit tagged on.
These boys are really cooking on gas.
I have yet to drive it, but with the engineering background and the racing knowledge, this is head and shoulders above any other Kit I have seen in years.
I would suggest a look ASAP: you will want one!
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