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skwdenyer
5,164 posts
109 months
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cazzer said: There's a reason they don't do rear wheel steering cars.
They can't pull away forwards when parked next to a wall or another vehicle.
Try pulling away from the kerb in reverse in your normal car and you'll see what I mean.
It might work if you had triangular style bodywork, but not as in the example of the car you've shown. I think he was suggesting a triangular-plan vehicle, with a single rear wheel. In that case, pulling away is OK. IIRC the first generation 4ws Honda Prelude had this 'kerb' difficulty - you had to perform a slightly different type of steering action to get away from a kerb. The bigger problem with rws is stability - how to make sure that large transient inputs don't simply result in a spin - it would be like have a loose rear wheel if you're not careful!
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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skwdenyer said: KDIcarmad said: Have a look at Peugeot 20 cup. It uses fixed front wheels and steers using its rear wheels. I think you missed, I only use the Bond minicars as a starting point. I do get the point about pulling away in reverse in normal car. Remember this is a three wheeler cars, these are nature narrower in the rear. Err, this photo would you suggest that you're mistaken:  I agree that the front wheels in this photo are turned, but if you watch the video of this being driven they clearly are not turning. On the fifth gear video Tiff say the rear wheel steers. I wonder if normal steering was fitted later. The rear wheel in the photo appears straight! Looking at the photo I do wonder why no ones based a kit car on this design! Until writing this I had forgotten how good this looked.
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skwdenyer
5,164 posts
109 months
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KDIcarmad said: I agree that the front wheels in this photo are turned, but if you watch the video of this being driven they clearly are not turning. On the fifth gear video Tiff say the rear wheel steers. I wonder if normal steering was fitted later. The rear wheel in the photo appears straight!
Looking at the photo I do wonder why no ones based a kit car on this design! Until writing this I had forgotten how good this looked.
I've now read some articles about this car, and watched the Fifth Gear clip. I think there is a mis-translation. I believe the original (French) intention was to say that 'the rear wheel does nothing except keep the car steering in the right direction' (i.e. it has no other function), and this has been interpreted as "steering". Certainly the stories from those who have driven it (and Tiff seems not to have done so) talk about very low-geared steering but make no mention of RWS. The video clips are ambiguous, and I'm not sure which are 'real' and which are renderings. There seems some suggestion of a tail-out attitude in one of the clips, and it doesn't seem likely that that would be a regular handling trait, so perhaps there was intended to be some sort of 'steering-controlled non-drifting' going on for fun, at least in early imaginings. Handling-wise, I'd imagine a RWS tripod would be quite unhappy. A 3WS system might be interesting, however, with same-sense steering at low lock angles switching to counter-sense steering at high lock angles - think 1st-generation 4WS Honda Prelude.
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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skwdenyer said: Handling-wise, I'd imagine a RWS tripod would be quite unhappy. A 3WS system might be interesting, however, with same-sense steering at low lock angles switching to counter-sense steering at high lock angles - think 1st-generation 4WS Honda Prelude. It was just a idea, that I had. Not a good one, I hoped it would start a few people thinking. The last generation Honda Prelude did have 4WS in it it's top spec version. I note not one comment on the idea of using an electric drive front wheel with a generator engine in the back. This idea I really like.
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skwdenyer
5,164 posts
109 months
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KDIcarmad said: It was just a idea, that I had. Not a good one, I hoped it would start a few people thinking. The last generation Honda Prelude did have 4WS in it it's top spec version. I note not one comment on the idea of using an electric drive front wheel with a generator engine in the back. This idea I really like. I'm with you on that idea, but getting the efficiencies to work properly in a low-volume, low-investment vehicle would be, err, challenging. There's a reason that Lotus have designed a dedicated 'range extender' engine rather than using an existing unit; the characteristics required are very different. If you want 'remote' drive, might as well make it hydraulic 
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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skwdenyer said: KDIcarmad said: It was just a idea, that I had. Not a good one, I hoped it would start a few people thinking. The last generation Honda Prelude did have 4WS in it it's top spec version. I note not one comment on the idea of using an electric drive front wheel with a generator engine in the back. This idea I really like. I'm with you on that idea, but getting the efficiencies to work properly in a low-volume, low-investment vehicle would be, err, challenging. There's a reason that Lotus have designed a dedicated 'range extender' engine rather than using an existing unit; the characteristics required are very different. If you want 'remote' drive, might as well make it hydraulic Do you think a hydraulic system would work? Has any one used a system like this on a real world vehicle? Would there be problems with breaking? How big would the engine need to be and what sort of performance would it offer? It does sound a good idea, maybe better than electric. My own knowledge of hydraulics is limited.
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Davi
17,026 posts
89 months
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skwdenyer said: I'm with you on that idea, but getting the efficiencies to work properly in a low-volume, low-investment vehicle would be, err, challenging. There's a reason that Lotus have designed a dedicated 'range extender' engine rather than using an existing unit; the characteristics required are very different. If you want 'remote' drive, might as well make it hydraulic There are distinct advantages of electric over remote, providing you have some form of battery storage in between as per most hybrids, you can't tune the optimal efficiency with a hydraulic setup as far as my understanding of it goes.
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skwdenyer
5,164 posts
109 months
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Davi said: skwdenyer said: I'm with you on that idea, but getting the efficiencies to work properly in a low-volume, low-investment vehicle would be, err, challenging. There's a reason that Lotus have designed a dedicated 'range extender' engine rather than using an existing unit; the characteristics required are very different. If you want 'remote' drive, might as well make it hydraulic There are distinct advantages of electric over remote, providing you have some form of battery storage in between as per most hybrids, you can't tune the optimal efficiency with a hydraulic setup as far as my understanding of it goes. I agree with you. But if the aim is a low-volume, affordable 3-wheeler, I don't see how currently-available battery / charging / hybrid tech would suffice at the requisite price-point. The tech is there, but it is not remotely within financial reach.
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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Found a link to this funny little car.  Called PuddleJumper. If you like it or just want to know more there website is www.puddlejumpercars.comYou can also buy plans to build one yourself! Makes Moonbeam look big.
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Fer
6,464 posts
149 months
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fuoriserie
Original Poster
4,085 posts
138 months
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fuoriserie
Original Poster
4,085 posts
138 months
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fuoriserie
Original Poster
4,085 posts
138 months
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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I agree totally with you on Moonbeam. Sad it was landed with a silly hippy name.
The Roopod look more sporting and fun.
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qdos
675 posts
79 months
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Just to resurrect this thread again and the topic of three wheelers. It seems the Delta is getting noticed more now that Nissan are involved with it too OK it's not a 3 wheeler as such and barely a scooter either. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
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Gompo
2,777 posts
127 months
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qdos
675 posts
79 months
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Just to resurrect this thread again and the topic of three wheelers. It seems the Delta is getting noticed more now that Nissan are involved with it too OK it's not a 3 wheeler as such and barely a scooter either. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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qdos said: Just to resurrect this thread again and the topic of three wheelers. It seems the Delta is getting noticed more now that Nissan are involved with it too OK it's not a 3 wheeler as such and barely a scooter either. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...This is not going to restart this. The Deltawing as a far moved from this as the moon is from the Earth.  Now this could,... Do you want a car like this on you driveway? YES! YES! YES! This is the T60 Berkeley. A 328cc powered 60's sportscar, a cousin to Berkeley's 4 wheeled cars. A very good seller. An update of these with modern styling and a top speed over 80 (needs to hold 70 mph on a motorway) would be very popular. So do you want one now!
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Steffan
6,187 posts
97 months
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KDIcarmad said: qdos said: Just to resurrect this thread again and the topic of three wheelers. It seems the Delta is getting noticed more now that Nissan are involved with it too OK it's not a 3 wheeler as such and barely a scooter either. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...This is not going to restart this. The Deltawing as a far moved from this as the moon is from the Earth. Now this could,... Do you want a car like this on you driveway? YES! YES! YES! This is the T60 Berkeley. A 328cc powered 60's sportscar, a cousin to Berkeley's 4 wheeled cars. A very good seller. An update of these with modern styling and a top speed over 80 (needs to hold 70 mph on a motorway) would be very popular. So do you want one now! YES I WOULD. I have been looking for a revitalised Berkeley for years. NOT with a Mini engine ONLY with a motorcycle engine up front! The A series is too heavy with all the associated subframes drivetrain etc. There have been attempts to produce new moulds. I believe the Berkeley club have the originals. But no real progress so far as I am aware. I would buy and build one tomorrow. I cannot find such a project.
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KDIcarmad
703 posts
20 months
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   The above picture are of the Scootacar MK2. Look at the cabin seating. Very Mclaren F1. It is even mid engine, as it small 250cc 2stoke is under that rear bench. There is a company Andy's Modern Microcars that offer bodyshell and fully build replica of the MK1 powered the Suzuki Burgman (400 or 650cc). At 2490 or 16800. The MK2 is a totally different car to the MK1 and I believe an interesting starting point for a new design. Add use a Suzuki 650 or 400 Burgman and you have a micro supercar. A Mk4 (there was a MK3) for today would need to be a little wide than 4ft4" for improved handling and a bit longer (7ft11" MK2). Large wheels with modern suspension and sound proofing. Lots of sound proofing. I would want a radio and to hear it, a heater and seat-belt for all three seats are also a must. Sounds fun! Anyone out there agree? I feel this is more in keeping with the cabin scooter idea than the Berkeley T60. Both offer a lot, all that's needed is a bit of thought and a lot of work for ones of these to become the design that re-sparks this type of car. I can see how a MK4 would look, but I cannot draw. I have tried drawing this and if I ever get it right will post it. May some of you out would like to give this a try.
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