Python brochure
Discussion
Ex-Biker said:
But avoiding the topic of PF's involvement, it would be nice for RV to prove Den wrong and for the Python to be a success.
It would also give Pilgrim a run for their money in the budget Cobra replica stakes, and presumably make them even more competitive that they already are..... hence opening up the market for more cost-effective cobra replicas, meaning more people can afford them!
BigRon said:
Secondly Pilgrim’s products were available for third party scrutiny, including Which Kit? who built one in 1996/7.
Did you get free adverts? If so, did you complain so vocally as you do now when other manufacturers get that deal?
Actually, it's Den who gives the free adverts and the manufacturer who complains when they get them...
I was referring to Den's suggestion that Ultima hadn't paid for any ads in WK in return for the Ultima build story (which turned out not to be true anyway)
Let me please deal with the ‘allegation’. My point in respect to Ultima advertising was that I thought ‘something fishy’ might be going on. Ted clarified that he did pay for his advertising in Which Kit? That satisfied me. However he made certain allegations concerning me that raised questions of a different nature which,
as is his right, he decided not to answer. My opinion is that if this particular issue is discussed further, then it should be done on that thread. Not here
In respect to ‘free’ adverts. I’ve never benefited from one. I’ve given those that have come to light on various threads on this forum
. If you go to MadAbout, you’ll learn that I’m advertising that site free
. Furthermore, I’m advertising PetrolTed’s PistonFest next July in the next issue
. My point here is that I don’t see anything wrong with promoting other peoples interests for free
. I do see red when such advertising is corrupt
or when it’s against my commercial interests
. I also take exception when what I’m doing is equated with the kind of activities I’ve pointed out in respect to Monty Python or in advertising for punters to be Cut By A Razer
. There is clearly no comparison between giving an innocent bona-fide third party a free advertisement and ‘conjuring’ non-existent products into false praise
. Den
>> Edited by kitcarman on Wednesday 26th November 17:37
BigRon said:Maybe it's an argument which, now I’ve started, I’ve no choice but to conclude
Maybe you've got more time to invest in this argument than anyone else (PF included)
. Maybe elements of this argument have increased classified revenue by about £500 per month
and trade advertising by about £2,500 per month and have increased the intake of subscribers by at least 25% over the past 4 or 5 months. Maybe it’s coincidental
. The jury’s out, and I’m chilled. Den
Ex-Biker said:
But avoiding the topic of PF's involvement, it would be nice for RV to prove Den wrong and for the Python to be a success.
Mark,
Why would it be good for the RV Python to succeed
? Every one of them sold would be at the expense of one of the many established and proven manufacturers whose advertising is being diluted and whose livelihood’s are being undermined 
. The product hails from the other side of the world and therefore isn’t exactly en-route to “Building a future for British kit cars” is it? Then look at the negative side. Who corrects problems (if any arise) given that Vince is in Sri Lanka
and his agent, dealer, importer, partner or whatever doesn’t know a spatula from a spanner
. What about help, both paid for and of a warranty nature? In the event of a problem requiring a legal resolution (and this isn’t a hypothetical point), who is sued? Where? What if the performance of the chassis turns out to be shite (again, 
looking at the pictures it’s decidedly lacking in the torsional rigidity department
IMHO). I feel for those gullible souls
who’ll be duped before the pretence is abandoned. 
They won’t have anywhere to go – will they? Am I supposed to do nothing whilst it’s happening? Question. We know that a cat’s got Fib’s tong and we all know why
. However, if all’s well in the Python camp, why doesn’t Vince speak out? We’re all 
, aren’t we? Den
BigRon said:
The other day, Den challenged me and Ex Biker to phone RV Dynamics for a Python brochure which he suggested didn’t even exist. Mine arrived today as promised by the bloke I spoke to.
I was very impressed by what I was told and that the information arrived in the post when they said it would. It’s a very different experience to the one I was expecting from the impression Den gives about the WK office.
You didn’t expect to be told to
off, did you? So, what was this
brochure/information like? Was it a brochure (which I suggested didn’t exist)? or was it just (or unjust
)information? Are you going to buy a Python?
Den
kitcarman said:
Question. We know that a cat’s got Fib’s tong and we all know why
Den
Well Den, I've just e-mailed Vince to see how things are progressing. Naturally I'll let you (all) know the result.
kitcarman said:
You didn’t expect to be told to
So, what was this
Are you going to buy a Python?
Den
Ron what is it like? I haven't got mine yet, which as this is the most active thread for some time, I feel puts me at a slight disadvantage.
Den - you know I won't be buying one. I mean, it's no sleek, 5Exi sports car is it?
My reason for saying that it would be nice to see you proved wrong, wasn't an attack at you. I feel that it is nice for manufacturers (not magazine backers - whoops,
that indicates money changing hands) to succeed. That is if the product is any good, therefore they need to prove it is.
You know the backup etc, does this mean that the Nemesis should be tarred with the same brush?
Remember the car displayed at Exeter, in a near finished state? Why did they display that when a large amount of people commented on the bendy chassis?
I'll take cover now!!!
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Wednesday 26th November 20:25
There’s a lot of issues here Mark Ex-Biker said:
My reason for saying that it would be nice to see you proved wrong, wasn't an attack at you. I feel that it is nice for manufacturers (not magazine backers - whoops,
I know that your question/observation wasn’t an attack upon me
. Like you, I accept that it would be good for a new product to succeed. But not in these terms IMHO. The Python was “back with bite”
in the January 2002 issue of Which Kit? The January 2004 issue will be out in only about 3 weeks time. 
Two years to develop what looks to me like a ‘floppy’ chassis seems excessive to me. Add to that the fact that I’ve been contacted by customers who’ve claimed to have been ripped off and would like to take legal action but can’t for the reasons I alluded to in a previous post. Add to this the track record of other ‘resurrected’ products that Fib’s is or has been ‘involved
’ with. Add his technically ‘challenged’ nature and his other ‘credentials’ and it smells very bad to me
. Ex-Biker said:
That is if the product is any good, therefore they need to prove it is.
There’s a right and honest way of introducing a new or developing product
. The way this product is presented isn’t IMHO either right or honest. For crying out loud, Which Kit? expresses opinions (presented as fact) along the lines that the new product will be comparable, in quality terms to it’s old established namesake. Ex-Biker said:
You know the backup etc, does this mean that the Nemesis should be tarred with the same brush?
You tell me! One letter of complaint we have concerns the RV Bugrat.
Ex-Biker said:
Remember the car displayed at Exeter, in a near finished state? Why did they display that when a large amount of people commented on the bendy chassis?
I'll take cover now!!!
I can only guess. But I believe it’s a blissful mix of ignorance and desperation.
Dangerous!!!!
Den
>> Edited by kitcarman on Wednesday 26th November 20:54
BigRon said:
Flintstone said:I make no secret of the fact that I trust Den more than I do Filby but having thought the whole thing through it's clear there are differences, not least the number of other strings to WK's bow.
Of course it might be easier to answer if Mr Filby were to come forward :tumbleweed:
Maybe not then.
Isn't that only because you haven't heard from PF personally? Am I the only one who thinks he has no obligation to join a forum based argument like this? Look what happened to Ted from Ultima when he had the 'audacity' to respond to something Den said.
I wrote direct to Peter Filby about four months ago expressing my genuine concern that as a purchaser of his magazine I might have been subjected to, shall we say, something less than the truth. So far the man has not had the deceny to reply.
At the very least that's plain bloody rude and enough to make me leave his magazine on the shelf and that's before we get into the topic of 'undeclared interests'.
Flintstone said:
I wrote direct to Peter Filby about four months ago expressing my genuine concern that as a purchaser of his magazine I might have been subjected to, shall we say, something less than the truth. So far the man has not had the decency to reply.
Hmmm, Perhaps your letter got "Lost in the post"
Ex-Biker said:
I don't discount that any of what Den is saying about the Python is untrue. Let's face it - it is untested, there is not a complete one one the road in the UK and we don't know if it will handle the BMW V8.
But avoiding the topic of PF's involvement, it would be nice for RV to prove Den wrong and for the Python to be a success.
This is what I originally said Den.
I know (and it's obvious) that Filby is falsely advertising (bending the true or making up a good story) the Python and I would imagine other kits too.
It was Graham Bell that said
grahambell said:That's reasonable.
Had a good chat with Vince at this year's Donington show, where he was with the Nemesis. The reason he's moved the operation to Sri Lanka is simple economics - it's just too bloody expensive making things in the UK.
IMHO Peter Philby has done Vince no favours. Your point about 'Building a Future for British Kit Cars' is a dig at Fib's and his advertising, not where the car is manufactured.
My point was a very simple one and very similar to the very first message I sent you.
If the car is good build one and prove it!
Yes I do agree it is unfair to people who buy a car before it has been tested thoroughly by the factory, but if these buyers are aware of the situation, which they should be (from either the sellers and from what has been published or posted on sites like this), they take the gamble knowingly.
You are doing your best to warn these people and I applaud you for that. But remember horse-water-drink.
Remember we spoke about this at Exeter and if what you mentioned there is true
Fib's certainly ain't a happy bunny about this subject anyway. Do you not know Vince? BTW the comment about the Bugrat is unfair.
Ex-Biker said:
IMHO Peter Philby has done Vince no favours. Your point about 'Building a Future for British Kit Cars' is a dig at Fib's and his advertising, not where the car is manufactured.
Absolutely right
I’ve no problems with foreign products. December Kit Car has an article about Factory Five’s new Spyder. The January issue has an article about the CAV GT40. Both from Africa. We often feature cars from all over the globe. I’m spiking at what I see as the hypocrisy of a publisher who’s not obliged to say that he’s “Building a future for British kit cars” but does so despite the fact that he’s prepared to undermine the British kit car industry in favour of a range of products in which he has an ‘interest’ that are made abroad. As I said, he need not place the misleading banner on his magazine. Ex-Biker said:
My point was a very simple one and very similar to the very first message I sent you.
If the car is good build one and prove it!
Yes! Then nobody can say what I’m saying! Provided of course that it’s subject to independent scrutiny
. Ex-Biker said:
Yes I do agree it is unfair to people who buy a car before it has been tested thoroughly by the factory, but if these buyers are aware of the situation, which they should be (from either the sellers and from what has been published or posted on sites like this), they take the gamble knowingly.
You are doing your best to warn these people and I applaud you for that. But remember horse-water-drink.
Let’s get this in perspective. There’s only been one buyer of a Python so far.
Let’s also look at my motivations in keeping the pressure up.
1. I was chastised by a reader who’d been duped into buying an AF. He said that he thought I was just as much to blame as Fib’s, because there’d been no warning in Kit Car. That really hurt!!!
He said he’d no reason to doubt the advice given by ‘Which?’ I reckoned he had a point! 2. The blatant advertising of non-existent products by one advertiser reflects badly on all. Point being that when a reader finds out that an advert is misleading, then how can he differentiate
. If he can’t then he could simply loose confidence in all kit car advertisements, then in the whole industry. My hope is that in blowing the whistle, confidence will be restored. 3. The problem here is that it’s not possible to deal with an individual rogue advertiser, because that advertiser, for whatever reason doesn’t consider that he’s restrained by matters of integrity AND is also publisher AND editor AND copy writer (in the case of ads) AND journalist (in the case of editorial). He’s a law unto himself. At enormous personal cost, I’m the only person who’s able and willing to deal with the situation. Look on the ASA site and see what they ordered Fib’s not to do.
Didn’t stop him though – until I opened my gun ports
. Ex-Biker said:
Remember we spoke about this at Exeter and if what you mentioned there is true
BTW the comment about the Bugrat is unfair.
All I know of RV Dynamics is that they ran up a bill with Kit Car for advertising, then vanished. Then reappeared in Which Kit? Neither Vince nor Reg have contacted me for over 2 years. Post is “returned to sender”.
A man wrote to me
then spoke to me (I 
ed him) explaining how he gave RV Dynamics a cheque for something over £600 as deposit on a built Bugrat. He’d been in e-mail contact with Vince who apparently strung him along with stories of eminent delivery for over a year. When he got to the end of his tether he asked for his money back. There followed a period where Vince referred him to Fib’s and visa versa. He assured me that he’s neither got his car nor his money. Now if one assumes this story’s correct, then am I really being unfair on the Bugrat? This gives rise to an interesting question bearing in mind the first point in this post. I don’t believe that any of what I’m saying has to do with the Python or Bugrat or Razer or any other product. Neither has it to do with RV Dynamics or Unique Autocraft or British Kit Cars or Kit Cars Ltd or any other company. Everything I’ve said in all my threads and posts boils down to one persons ‘involvement’. He said that he’d show me (was showing me
) how a magazine of ‘integrity’ is ‘produced’. With a different person at the helm, all my postings would have been unnecessary. In conclusion, my problem isn’t with Which Kit? either. You’re intelligent people. You can see where the problem lies. Answers on a post(card).
Den
>> Edited by kitcarman on Thursday 27th November 02:09
I said this,
You do seem to have said one thing all the way through your last post. That is the problem is with Fib's.
I can see this.
How about if RV (or whoever) had said in advertising:
We are developing an update to an established Cobra rep. The developement will include BMW running gear .
. . . . We are offering the first 5 customers a substancial discount, in order to assist in this development process. . . . .
Anyway, I'm still waiting for my brochure
Can we talk about 5Exi cars now?
and only nice things
Ex-Biker said:'cause you put it in at the last minute and I've got no argument.
BTW the comment about the Bugrat is unfair.
You do seem to have said one thing all the way through your last post. That is the problem is with Fib's.
I can see this.
How about if RV (or whoever) had said in advertising:
We are developing an update to an established Cobra rep. The developement will include BMW running gear .
. . . . We are offering the first 5 customers a substancial discount, in order to assist in this development process. . . . . Anyway, I'm still waiting for my brochure
Can we talk about 5Exi cars now? and only nice things
Ex-Biker said:
How about if RV (or whoever) had said in advertising:
We are developing an update to an established Cobra rep. The developement will include BMW running gear .
Anyway, I'm still waiting for my brochure
I don’t believe you’re going to get a brochure and I notice that BigRon decided not to answer that point. Oh dear, I’ve attacked
BigRon now. You’re spot on in describing a form of marketing that would have been appropriate, honest and fair
. Ordinarily of course, a ‘normal’ manufacturer would be forced to keep his claims truthful
within certain slightly elastic limits. We generally accept and even expect advertisers to guild the Lilly because we also expect ‘Which?’ type magazines to balance such advertising with their objectivity (integrity) on our behalf. So what’s gone wrong? The answer is that in this case the advertising copy writer is the impartial journalist, is the editor, is the publisher (anyone see any controlling influences?) who
also has an ‘interest’ in that which he’s writing editing then finally publishing. Notice there’s NO INDIPENDANT CONTROL We can only look to the scruples of the man to control himself. Does he show evidence of the kind of integrity required to engender the trust of his readership? I‘ve pointed out that I believe the cover of his magazine makes the misleading statement that it’s “Building a future for British kit car’s”. A trivial point maybe, butit shows something of his character. His insistence that his magazine has ‘50,000 readers’ and was ‘racing ahead’ this year are other examples of trivial but telling indications as to his truthfulness, objectivity, integrity or call it what you will. On the opposite end of the spectrum the distortions become so big that it’s almost impossible to believe that anybody could be so misleading. Everything between these limits appears to be tainted by the publisher’s ‘involvement’. Everywhere one goes, one discovers a kit car that’s owned by Fib’s. Curious that, since he’s never built one, couldn’t build one and doesn’t want to build one. Again, you’re clever people
. You can see very obvious anomalies at the trivial end, there are equally outrageous, but far more serious, anomalies at the substantive end. He’s been caught out with tampering with a reader’s. So it seems that the problem is endemic. I’ll leave you to work out why he has cars all over the place. I’d like to go further but I’ll stand accused of attacking manufacturers who may or may not have supplied such cars (which I’m not). I’m simply looking forward to the day when kit car magazines can be taken at face value. Whist people accept what they’re presently being served, they’ll continue to be served with it
. I’m making my stand in the hope that everyone will benefit in the end. Den
PS. Any response from Vince?
>> Edited by kitcarman on Thursday 27th November 13:05
Didn't think you were visiting today Den.
If WK? were a bike mag, that figure would put him in the top 5, probably close to top 3.
I had to read that a couple of times. I thought he'd been fiddling with a reader???
Can we talk about something else now?
Speedemondan came up with the query about auto's. Let's go a stage further. Has anyone built a diesel kit? Not just an off roader either.
kitcarman said:
His insistence that his magazine has ‘50,000 readers’
If WK? were a bike mag, that figure would put him in the top 5, probably close to top 3.
kitcarman said:
He’s been caught out with tampering with a reader’s
I had to read that a couple of times. I thought he'd been fiddling with a reader???
Can we talk about something else now?
Speedemondan came up with the query about auto's. Let's go a stage further. Has anyone built a diesel kit? Not just an off roader either.
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