Python brochure

[kitcarman]

SpartanAndy said:

Oh yes Delegation, delegation, Delegation, that's what you need if you wanna be the best, and you wanna beat the rest, delegations what you need if you wanna be a record breaker yeah

Emmm

Delegation enables me to spend so much time on the net.

Ex-Biker said:

Is Den OK, I've not been yet.

You ain’t done nofing rong there’s no. We’re just discussing what constitutes a brochure. If other cars are promoted w/o one it don’t change nofing IMHO.

Just asking, ‘cos somebody said I was wrong in what I said.

That’s all.

Den

[Ex-Biker]

No brochure yet . . . . It's like waiting for a free copy of Kit Car. Everyone has one before me!

I really though you were having a dig about what a kit car brochure should (does) consist of.

I know the Pilgrim ones are good and I would like to see all manufacturers produce good quality brochures. IMHO it helps to bring the produce upmarket.

[andycanam]

kitcarman said:

All I know of RV Dynamics is that they ran up a bill with Kit Car for advertising, then vanished. Then reappeared in Which Kit? Neither Vince nor Reg have contacted me for over 2 years. Post is “returned to sender”.

I know I'm gona regret this but the story I was told was that a single advert was ordered for the same issue as the feature of the Nemesis in KCM and that it didn't appear..... there were phone calls and the ad then appeared for multipe issues (but not the one ordered).

Now I'm sure Den could check this, but I don't have any issues from that era so I unfortunatelly can't.....

I'll also point out that I have seen the remains of the jigs for the old Python at the RV factory over here along with 3 new python chasis (along with BMW running gear) that didn't look floppy to me compared to other cobras

We all know PF is somehow involved with the Python.... and I suspect he is getting the exact response he was hoping for from an old rival....

My odservation... why does PF need to come on here and get into a slagging match. He can do far more damage by delivering and proving one specific car.


BTW I've had many broshures over the past year and very few were anything more than photocopies, the Ultima and Westfield one's being the exceptions from my collection.

Bugger I nealy forgot the emotions

Thew that was close.

[kitcarman]

andycanam said:

I know I'm gona regret this but . . .

No you're not.

andycanam said:

the story I was told was that a single advert was ordered for the same issue as the feature of the Nemesis in KCM and that it didn't appear..... there were phone calls and the ad then appeared for multipe issues (but not the one ordered). Now I'm sure Den could check this, but I don't have any issues from that era so I unfortunatelly can't.....

Who told you this? Why haven't they brought it to my attention? To my knowledge we've only ran copy they've supplied. In fact the last ad we ran was marked with an additional flash reading "see us at Stafford" along with Stafford's dates.

No offence Andy, you're not being attacked. You've simply been fed bullshit. Let's hear it from Vince, I say.

andycanam said:

I'll also point out that I have seen the remains of the jigs for the old Python at the RV factory over here along with 3 new python chasis (along with BMW running gear) that didn't look floppy to me compared to other cobras

Maybe you have seen Python jigs, but then again they could have been for any ladder chassis.Even if they were what you think they may be, it doesn't change the fact that the new Python is new and cannot reasonably rely on the reputation of its predecessor.

Kris could help, if we can find him. I'm quite certain that any jig made by him would be a first class piece of engineering. Not that a Jag jig would help in making a BMW chassis.

andycanam said:

We all know PF is somehow involved with the Python....

Good to see we're making progress.

andycanam said:

and I suspect he is getting the exact response he was hoping for from an old rival....

That's reassuring. I'm so glad that I'm giving Fib's exactly what he was hoping for. I wouldn't like to think he'd be feeling short-changed.

andycanam said:

My odservation... why does PF need to come on here and get into a slagging match.

I'll respond with the concluding words from another thread.

gdr said:

. . . speak up Filby fans! If not, I guess we must assume Den is in the right!(and then can we stop this Bks?)

I'll add that it's not his fans but Fib's himself who needs to respond.

andycanam said:

He can do far more damage by delivering and proving one specific car.

I'll respond with someone else¡¦s words.

Ex-Biker said:

My point was a very simple one and very similar to the very first message I sent you. If the car is good build one and prove it!

andycanam said:

BTW I've had many broshures over the past year and very few were anything more than photocopies, the Ultima and Westfield one's being the exceptions from my collection.

For what it's worth, I reckon that Fib's not saying anything is THE problem so far as PistonHeads is concerned. So far as I'm concerned it's compelling PROOF that I am indeed in the right.

That's not an attack on you Andy, neither is it on BigRon. The simple plain fact is that what Fib's is doing is so out-of-order that it's difficult for right thinking people to take in. Look at the title of this thread and the opening post. Ron effectively said that I was wrong to mock the non-existence of a Python brochure.

BigRon said:

Den challenged me and Ex Biker to phone RV Dynamics for a Python brochure which he suggested didn't even exist. Mine arrived today as promised by the bloke I spoke to. I was very impressed by what I was told and that the information arrived in the post when they said it would.

However, it's clear that BigRon isn't comfortable with the use of the word "brochure" to describe what he got. You and others have attempted to excuse the "brochure" as being par for the course. That's your prerogative. It's also my prerogative to stand by what I said.

Nobody's attacking anybody else.

Den


>> Edited by kitcarman on Friday 28th November 23:19

[andycanam]

You havn't seen this car/chasis etc in person yet.... but you seem to be staking your reputation that this car will be/is rubbish.

You complain that they (PF) are judging how good the car is before it has been built.... well you are doing the same by judging how bad it is before it built.

Both are opposing assumptions made by opposing Editors of our only Kit car magazines (that appear to hate each other).
I sort of feel that this is like the Labour part V's the Conservatives, with every trick in the book being used by both sides to rubbish the other..... Both are doing it but in very different ways.

And silence does'nt mean guilt... I've never met or spoken to PF so can't comment here.
But I have met Ted and I'm not the least surprised that he has not got drawn into a public slagging match (can't think of a less offensive word).

Anyhow as we've all agreed before, only time will tell with regard to this car....
and I doubt the Den/PF thing will ever end.....

On the subject of advertising.... who struck up that deal with Mark Evans, he always seems to be building a Cobra replica and its always a Sumo with a chevy V8
Cleaver

[kitcarman]

andycanam said:

You havn't seen this car/chasis etc in person yet.... but you seem to be staking your reputation that this car will be/is rubbish.:

I have not said that the car will be rubbish!
In print I’ve said that it’s impossible to say anything definitive until one’s been built. On this forum and privately I’ve gone further in pointing to the fact that it’s been two years since the monty Python was “Back with bite” and all we've seen is what I believe is a very poor excuse for a chassis.

andycanam said:

You complain that they (PF) are judging how good the car is before it has been built.... well you are doing the same by judging how bad it is before it built.

As I said above, I’m not referring to anything I’ve not seen. The chassis is IMHO poor from a structural integrity point of view.
They on the other hand are making their statements of optimism appear as fact and they are giving a very misleading overall impression as to the state of the product’s development. I think that such a complaint is justified and my warnings, as published in Kit Car, warranted.

andycanam said:

Both are opposing assumptions made by opposing Editors of our only Kit car magazines (that appear to hate each other). I sort of feel that this is like the Labour part V's the Conservatives, with every trick in the book being used by both sides to rubbish the other..... Both are doing it but in very different ways.

To say the car hasn’t been built is not an assumption, so your political analogy doesn’t hold water. Similarly my other points (as published) are not assumptions either. Fib’s is involved. No BMW V8 has been fitted, etc.
Even what I’ve additionally said on this forum is factual. For example, my comment that it’s my opinion that the chassis is poorly designed is factual in that it is indeed my opinion that it is poorly designed.

andycanam said:

And silence doesn’t mean guilt...

We’ll take that as an expression of your opinion. My opinion, along with many others, is to the contrary.

andycanam said:

I've never met or spoken to PF so can't comment here. But I have met Ted and I'm not the least surprised that he has not got drawn into a public slagging match (can't think of a less offensive word).

Beg your pardon Andy, but the situation with Ted was that he attacked me in saying that I “shamelessly” gave him free ads and that he’d ‘never knowingly advertised in Kit Car. I responded with some questions that he didn’t answer. There was no ‘slagging’ and agree that your choice of language is offensive. I’m sure you could have thought up a less emotive term if you really wanted to.

andycanam said:

Anyhow as we've all agreed before, only time will tell with regard to this car....

Even IF it eventually turns-out well, it would not excuse the distortions that are presently been published IMHO. Much less if it doesn’t end well. I’ve not heard anybody else agree with your “all’s well if it ends well” philosophy.

andycanam said:

and I doubt the Den/PF thing will ever end.....

O ye of little faith! Terrific progress has been made.

andycanam said:

On the subject of advertising.... who struck up that deal with Mark Evans, he always seems to be building a Cobra replica and its always a Sumo with a chevy V8 Cleaver

On both occasions it was me in my capacity as owner of Pilgrim. I’m glad I’ve your vote of confidence in that. Had it not been for the simultaneous slander that the other magazine eventually admitted in Court, it would have achieved I great deal more than it did.

In summary, you appear to have great difficulty in getting your head around who’s saying what. I’m completely certain that everything I’m saying in relation to Python is justified. Fib’s silence is but an element of what proves it. All that is printed in Kit Car is absolutely true, whilst what I’m saying here is at times arguable. For example, we can argue the toss about whether or not a couple of photocopies and a colour sheet constitutes a brochure Such argument is exactly ‘on thread’ but misses ‘the point’. The point is that the making of claims, by a trade magazine editor with an interest, about a product before the product is made is wrong.

Den


>> Edited by kitcarman on Saturday 29th November 14:47

[Ferg]

Den says: The point is that the making of claims, by a trade magazine editor with an interest, about a product before the product is made is wrong.

Now, there surely is a point we can all agree with.

I personally agree with most of what Den says, I've been reading PFs magazines since 'Alternative Cars' in the early 80s and have always been grateful for his endless promotion of the Kit~car industry. BUT the AF saga has completely changed my opinion. The Python situation is, in the cold light of day, just not the sort of operation I'd wish to do business with.
Can anyone HONESTLY tell me they would buy a car without driving it??? New, secondhand OR kitcar?



>> Edited by Ferg on Saturday 29th November 17:24

[gdr]

I bought both my GD427 and Ultima GTR without driving them first. Test drives not available for insurance purposes. I believe that the Ultima factory had stopped giving prospective customers a chance to drive after some numpty got a tad overzealous and trashed the demonstrator once upon a time. But I did get taken out as a passenger in each and there was plenty good press on them so I don't think this was taking a risk.

Oh yes, and there wasn't even a demonstrator to see when I bought the Rotrax kit - this was taking a bit of a chance but it turned out OK.

I think something new on the market would warrant a drive though, plus an extended examination of how it is put together. Personally, I'd feel more confident buying a kit after a few others had taken the plunge and given feed back on various websites and the mags. This is where the mags should be useful, to give informed opinion on products for the punters, but in the case of the Python, I fear an unbiased and objective opinion may be difficult to get from either WK or KC judging from content of this and other threads.


>> Edited by gdr on Saturday 29th November 20:31

[kitcarman]

gdr said:

I bought both my GD427 and Ultima GTR without driving them first. . . .

Because. . .

gdr said:

. . .there was plenty good press on them so I don't think this was taking a risk.

In the case of monty Python you’d be taking a very big risk despite “plenty good press”.

I rest my case.

Den

[Ferg]

Point taken GDR, but suppose you just didn't like the way it drove, I mean after spending all that time putting it together. At least if it was a mainstream car you could just sell it on, but after building it....
I know we, and I'm as guilty as anyone if not more, cut kitcar companies more slack than most, but surely a demonstrator (at least for a ride) should be available before you start trying to sell them. I know of one kit manufacturer who had difficulty keeping ahead of his ONE customer in the race to finish the demonstrator. Sadly that went horribly wrong leaving the customer initially high and dry. Another company I am aware of consider 3 years to be the time taken to bring a car from the drawing board to the marketplace. That's before anyone finds out about the car let alone they advertise it.
I hate to start sounding like Den (he's best at it after all), but if you bang on about raising standards while selling kits that aren't strictly speaking ready for the market, something stinks.

[kitcarman]

I and others have frequently asked

kitcarman said:

Why do you think we never hear from Fib’s?

In fact it’s been said by BigRon and AndyCanham that Fib’s isn’t obliged to say anything. However aren’t we missing the point that he’s actually said rather a lot.

kitcarman said:

Fib’s has written and edited articles in which his involvement is (dishonestly IMHO) referred to from a third party perspective, using pseudonyms such as “Mr Financier” and “the new owners”. Then there’s what’s actually said concerning handling and performance. Clearly, there’s something DRASTICALLY WRONG when cars that have never been driven are said to possess impeccable road manners.

We all know that one of the purposes of magazines such as Which? and in this case Which Kit? is to spare consumers some of the effort of separating the wheat from the chaff. Indeed such magazines reader’s pay their money for the honesty, objectivity and integrity of the journalism, such that they my purchase goods in the knowledge that they’re making wise decisions. That honesty, and objectivity clearly isn’t applied in certain cases. Some punters will consequently make unwise decisions.

WhichKit said:

It is a constant brainwashing misinformation process which unfortunately the gullible public will believe.

Indeed, it’s been said on this forum that “good press” influences intelligent purchasers. However, in this case the “good press” simply isn’t accurate, is it? There’s a right way to promote a new product. The quote from Which Kit? indicates that they know exactly what they’re doing.

Ex-Biker said:

My point was a very simple one. . . . If the car is good build one and prove it!

However, what’s reported isn’t based on what’s been built, but on what’s hoped shall be built.

kitcarman said:

I’m exposing what’s going on.

Things don’t come much simpler than that IMHO. So…..

kitcarman said:

Frankly I’m astonished at the backlash it’s brought upon me.

It’s very comforting that most can see why Fib’s is deafeningly silent. On my fundamental point, most appear to appreciate that I’m right.

kitcarman said:

. . . . that advertiser, for whatever reason doesn’t consider that he’s restrained by matters of integrity AND is also publisher AND editor AND copy writer (in the case of ads) AND journalist (in the case of editorial). He’s a law unto himself.

Frankly, whilst Fib’s is loosing readers like Ferg and Flintstone at the rate he is, and whilst Kit Car advertising revenue is climbing at Which Kit?’s expense, I’m very happy that Fib’s is content to keep his gob shut. However, he’s only one ‘victim’. It was several days ago that Vince was contacted, and let’s not forget that RV is his business. Surely he’d like the record put straight, if it’s not straight already.

grahambell said:

In answer to Den's question, no, not had a reply from Vince yet, but give it some time.

Graham, is Vince shy too? Or has he responded?

Den

[andycanam]

kitcarman said:

However, what’s reported isn’t based on what’s been built, but on what’s hoped shall be built.

I agree with they have blown their own trumpet too early, Stupid but hardly rare in the car industry generally.

kitcarman said:

Frankly, whilst Fib’s is loosing readers like Ferg and Flintstone at the rate he is:cloud9

Frankly your currently BOTH losing my custom....
but to big you up a little I havn't even considered buying WK, whereas I wont buy yours until the comic sketches are gone.

I'm not interested in defending PF.... and we've done the all this before so I'm going to do the silent bit for a while.

[kitcarman]

andycanam said:

I agree with they have blown their own trumpet too early. . .

1 year and 10 months before they had anything to show. I’d say that was a tad too early!

Even now they haven’t got a car. Emmm. . . definitely a tad too early.

andycanam said:

Frankly your currently BOTH losing my custom....

Did we ever have it?

andycanam said:

I wont buy yours until the comic sketches are gone.

They went with the November issue. We’re now purely basking in memories of past comic Monty Python scetches.

andycanam said:

I'm not interested in defending PF.....

Indefensible Probably therefore a wise decision. Anyway, Fib’s and Vince are capable of taking care of themselves. You only need to Which Kit? to see that.

As I’ve said before, I’ve no argument with anybody other than Fib’s and he won’t enter an argument that he’s no chance of winning. It’s just a matter of waiting to see how readers vote with their loyalty. Based upon what I’ve learned and experienced so far, I reckon my 6 month campaign was well worth the effort.

Den
PS. Does this mean it's over?

[gdr]

Once upon a time I did actually believe what I read in the kit mags, but of course now there is no way I would allow myself to be influenced by WK or KC articles largely due to the widely differing opinions offered.

Den, the Python "good press" in WK is more than balanced by your contributions.
Is average of "totally brilliant" plus "totally crap" = "not bad, worth a try". I think not.

At least if you want to buy a sports saloon, opinions given in EVO and What Car are generally along the same lines even if emphasis on different aspects may differ (eg EVO more interested in handling, What Car in running costs etc).

But neither are out to promote a particular product for financial gain or rubbish another for whatever reasons.

[Ex-Biker]

I largely agree with what you have said gdr, but both mags you mention would tell people of potential death traps or (eg) Rover 'k' series engines have a design fault and blow head gaskets (alledgedly).

I they didn't manufacturers wouldn't be forced into changing aspects of our cars and we would still all be driving cars that rust within a year or continually break down.

[grahambell]

kitcarman said:

Graham, is Vince shy too? Or has he responded? Den

Still heard nowt so far, which isn't very encouraging. Could be good reason though, so I'll give it a few more days and try again. Post results here either way.

[kitcarman]

gdr said:

Is average of "totally brilliant" plus "totally crap" = "not bad, worth a try". I think not.

As I’ve said, the fundamental argument in the magazines isn’t about brilliant/crap, it’s far more fundamentally about whether certain products exist or not. The equation would be better expressed as follows:-

teacher said:

“existing, established, high quality” plus “non-existent, confidence trick” = “be very careful” .

I think it follows that the reporting in one magazine is commendable and that in the other reprehensible.

In the absence of a car , it’s easy to verify Which? is reprehensible.

So, what's wrong with Kit Car warning its customers to “be very careful”? by insisting on a test drive in this case. Especially as in general terms a test drive (or ride) is the order of the day in any event.

Den

[Justin s]

On a less financially burdoning thing,has the Which Kits Cobra 'book' come out yet,just in time for Christmas?