RV Python - Vince replies!

[Ex-Biker]

jgmadkit said:

Not at all Vince. The tone and structure of your replies made we wonder. You may have a good reason for this but with plenty of trolls out there looking to wind people up then I think it was a reasonable request especially after you laughable chassis testing technique John www.madabout-kitcars.com

John
I'm hoping that it was that Vince found it hard to describe the technique he was using and also that other tests will/have also be/been done.

BTW Nice feature allowing us all to put kit car articles on your site.
I'll have to try and find some time between work and stripping the donor to send you something.

[vince rvd]

Ex-Biker said:

I'm going to reiterate a lot of what Ozzie Dave said here; I trust there will be a demo car? Who will be building it? reason for asking: Did anyone see Top Gear last night? Clarkson was talking to the guy from the Kumars about driving in India. Made me think, do they ever scrap cars over there?

yes there is a demo and i am building and no they dont scrap it utill it wont go anymore

[ozzie dave]

Thanks Ex-Biker that sums up precisely what I meant
Nicely put! (not dyslexic - but blo0dy awful at english (Could be its not used out here - they all talk 'Straylian)

Dave Ingerson
Brisbane

[Ex-Biker]

Sorry Vince, I know you won't have seen the program. They were joking about how many people you can get into a car, how no cars are ever written off (just hammered into some shape and driven) and the (supposed) highway code where the biggest gets right of way and it's alway the fault of the person behind (for not anticipating what you are going to do).

I know it's not funny written here, but it was at the time.

[grahambell]

Had an e-mail from Vince wondering if it was a good idea for him to post here in view of the flak he's been getting. True he's made something of a personal attack on Den, but then who was it who started casting aspersions in the first place?

As Vince's dyslexia obviously makes it difficult for him to express himself in writing he might decide not to bother any more, and I wouldn't blame him.

On a more positive note, he also sent some more jpegs, some of which show the backbone section of the chassis far more clearly than previous ones and help to back up my statement that the Python chassis won't suffer the same torsional problems the Mk1 Sumo chassis did.

But as has been said before (by several people) the proof will be in the driving.

[jgmadkit]

I certainly think more can be gained if Den and Vince were to take their differences offline. It's clear they have some making up to do to clear the air. To air their differences here on a public forum is probably not going to do the reputation of either any good.

I believe Den's heart is in the right place and would probably even help Vince out with the chassis design if he would let him (I think pride might get in the way here though) - I dont think anyone actually wants to see the car itself fail, the gripe isn't with the car it's with PF.

Vince, please stay on the forum. I think everyone could benefit from the knowledge of people on the 'inside' if you know what I mean. I think we just need to steer clear of this Python subject online.


John

www.madabout-kitcars.com

[BigRon]

david_s said:

Surely the point is not whether the manufacturers advertisements are 100% factual and correct, some artistic license is expected and taken into account by potential purchasers. The thing that would concern me is the added credibility given by supposed informed and impartial editorial coverage. Even more so when the praise relates to a product that at the time was not developed or available for test.

It's interesting then that Den only ever takes issue with the advertising and not the editorial in WK (in terms of promoting the Python). Whereas it's the editorial that's my problem with KC.

>> Edited by BigRon on Monday 8th December 12:49

[Ex-Biker]

BigRon said:

It's interesting then that Den only ever takes issue with the advertising and not the editorial in WK (in terms of promoting the Python). Whereas it's the editorial that's my problem with KC.

? ? ? ?

Are we talking the jibes in there this month (ie Python advert), the attacks of the past (that aren't in there or will be out soon) or the actual editorial (as it seems you are pointing to)?

[BigRon]

The jibes against WK. OK, they're not in there now but they were for many months and plenty of them (10 pages one month).

Den happily quotes WK from the days when he ran Pilgrim, so KC's attacks are recent history in comparison.

[Ex-Biker]

Fair comment.

[kitcarman]

Sorry Mark, but I don’t think it is fair comment.

BigRon said:

It's interesting then that Den only ever takes issue with the advertising and not the editorial in WK (in terms of promoting the Python).

You and I must be reading different forums. This is what I said in my very last post. Not for the first time either.

I said:

Isn’t it sufficient to see not only that Fib’s has advertised Python for 2 years, but has also fed his readers with editorial bullshit, compromised the integrity his magazine, biased its coverage against Python’s natural competitors and subjected himself to ridicule in the process? Bold text added for clarity.

As for BigRon’s criticism of Kit Car’s editorial, I think it’s unjustified. Every word about Python has been reproduced in this thread. I’ll reproduce it yet again here:-
June 2003 issue only:-

KitCar said:

Which Kit? EXPOSED! Last month I suggested that if Which Kit? wanted “to get more belief” it might try telling the truth. . . . As I shall demonstrate, Which Kit?’s own “dubious standards” are doing a perfectly good job at “tarnishing” its own reputation. . . . The editor’s lying about his competitor and his magazine’s market position and content are quite one thing. But like Pinocchio’s nose, the problem is growing. . . . In a curious reversal of roles Mr Filby finds himself at the head of no less than three kit car manufacturing “firms”. The resultant conflict of interests, combined with a lack of integrity is damaging to everybody with an interest in kit cars. Betrayal of Trust . . . . everybody has been affected. The distortion of the so called “comprehensive Cobra guide” and of the upcoming book is another lie (albeit by omission). . . . Desperate Times The rise of Kit Car knocked a hole in Which Kit?’s income. . . . Come 2002 . . . . Which Kit? announced that the Python is . . . . “Back with Bite”. Not coming soon or being developed. That was over a year ago, but to this day no such car exists. Which Kit?’s Interest. All three companies, purveying these three products, hail from the Which Kit? address. For the past year. . .coverage has been extensive. . . For Mr Filby to recover his integrity, he has to extricate himself . . . . When integrity is sold for profit. . . . the viability of the publication disappears. . . .

June to November 2003 issues:-
I then reproduced the Python advertisement and satirically pointed out what I envisaged as the experience of a serious enquirer

KitCar said:

They can’t answer your questions regarding precisely which model of “BMW V8 fits perfectly too”. . .It’s never been done, but you’re not told that. So you suggest . . . . taking a look. What are you told?. . . . the factory’s in Sri Lanka. In fact there’s probably no car in Sri Lanka either.

Aspects of the above were clearly misunderstood with the arrival of Si’s prototype chassis, so I amended my warning as follows:-
December 2003, onwards.

KitCar said:

Warning This product is presented as a new development of an existing model, but nothing could be further from the truth. RV Dynamics had nothing to do with the original Python, which was an excellent product as described. Save that they’re both Cobra replicas, the new Python bears no technical resemblance to the old. The new Python is purportedly being made in Sri Lanka using a newly designed, but as yet untested, chassis to which a body from new moulds, as yet unchecked in respect to fit, will be fitted over BMW mechanics, but as yet untried. Follow Good Advice This product is exclusively promoted by, advertised in and sold through the offices of Which Kit? magazine. Please follow that (and this) magazine’s advice by not parting with your money until after you’ve seen the actual fit and finish and taken a test drive. What Hasn’t Been Said We’re not saying that a BMW based Cobra cannot be produced. We simply say that one hasn’t yet been produced but it is presented, in one particular magazine, as if it had. We simply wish to avoid our readers being used as unsuspecting test dummies for prototype development.

So BigRon, what’s wrong with this editorial. I’m all ears. I note you responded to Ex-Biker (thanks Mark) as follows:-

BigRon said:

The jibes against WK. OK, they're not in there now but they were for many months and plenty of them (10 pages one month). Den happily quotes WK from the days when he ran Pilgrim, so KC's attacks are recent history in comparison.

However, the ‘jibes’ at Python have proved true, as have those concerning Razer, AF, numerical claims concerning magazines sold and the result of the legal conflict. My question concerning exactly what was wrong with what I said still stands.

Pre-empting two possible responses. There was a lot said because there was much to expose. It was put bluntly because subtle approaches hadn’t worked, whilst institutions like the ASA (the PCC, and the High Court) had been ignored.

Den

[Ex-Biker]

kitcarman said:

Sorry Mark, but I don’t think it is fair comment.

Den
I only meant that BigRon is entitled to his opinions, and that is fair.

I don't know this, but I can't see why BigRon won't be happy with the 'editorial' in the future. After all he doesn't say he doesn't like the main features.


John

jgmadkit said:

I certainly think more can be gained if Den and Vince were to take their differences offline. It's clear they have some making up to do to clear the air. To air their differences here on a public forum is probably not going to do the reputation of either any good. I believe Den's heart is in the right place and would probably even help Vince out with the chassis design if he would let him (I think pride might get in the way here though) - I dont think anyone actually wants to see the car itself fail, the gripe isn't with the car it's with PF. Vince, please stay on the forum. I think everyone could benefit from the knowledge of people on the 'inside' if you know what I mean. I think we just need to steer clear of this Python subject online. John www.madabout-kitcars.com

I agree John. Similar to what I said on Saturday.

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=3&f=30&t=70060&h=0

Den
I believe it has been proved that your complaint about how the Python is being advertised/promoted is upheld and the adverts in WK? are not truthful.



>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Monday 8th December 15:25

[kitcarman]

Mark and John,
Thanks for your level headed input.

The following is my detailed public response to your pleas that Vince and I get our acts together with each other.

vince rvd said:

"I am NOT good AT GETTING MY POINTS OVER"

I think you’ve made all your points very clearly. You don’t like or trust me or anything I do. You haven’t actually built a complete Python and insist that you haven’t said that you had. You claim to be mechanically qualified from an aerospace perspective, whilst employing ‘suck it and see’ design techniques.

You actually get full marks for communication skills. Nobody here has had difficulties in understanding the substance of what you’ve said.

The basis of your distrust/dislike appears to be a combination of petty misunderstandings mixed with simple ignorance. No doubt exaggerated in the company you’ve been keeping.

vince rvd said:

DEN you still have not said WHY you never wanted anything to do with my cars ????

The whole premise of the question is wrong. I can’t begin to explain feelings I never had. It seems that several years ago you came to the conclusion that me (and my magazine ) were best avoided.

vince rvd said:

YOU have never given a good reason for messing around with all the shows (other than to get at Filby )

I thought my earlier post was crystal clear. In any event, I don’t see why this issue should trouble you so much. You weren’t an ASCM member were you? Even if you were, I think that discussing your concerns might have been a more fruitful way of resolving them. Two-thirds of ASCM members did and were satisfied that I did what I was effectively forced to do. In any event,I’m still barred from Fib’s shows.

vince rvd said:

and if I don’t like or trust you after all what you have said about me and my products then I think I have that right !!!

Vince. Which came first? The dislike and distrust? Or what I’ve recently said?

That’s not all there is to this though, is it?

You ‘bumped’ Kit Car for around £600 in advertising.

You’ve apparently lied to members of the public concerning why you haven’t paid.

You’re offering to discuss what you see as my shortcomings with anybody who cares to call you. No doubt calling into question those issues settled in the High Court.

According to communications I’ve had from one of your customers, you’ve taken his money (approximately £600) but not delivered his goods.

If that’s not enough, there are the two issues concerning the fact that your advertisements are very misleading and the fact that it appears to me that the depth of the relationship you’re ‘enjoying’ with Fib’s isn’t healthy for members of the public, other Cobra manufacturers and certainly not healthy for your relationship with me.

If this isn’t enough, I have misgivings as to what recourse an ordinary British customer would have against a person trading through an Ltd in Sri Lanka if they were not happy. Or if they wanted their money back. Or if they came across a simple problem that required a ‘physical’ fix.

Others on this forum have suggested that you and I need to open up lines of communication IF we are to reach a mutual understanding. Sounds like good advice to me, but with respect I believe its over to you to make the first move.

Den

[PetrolTed]

Might I suggest you resolve this matter on a one to one basis rather than on a forum? Jangles keys

[vince rvd]

[]



That was over a year ago, but to this day no such car exists.


[the factory’s in Sri Lanka. In fact there’s probably no car in Sri Lanka either.[/quote]
well there is a factory and has been for longtime


This product is presented as a new development of an existing model, but nothing could be further from the truth.

this is true as i AM useing the old molds so this is BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

the new Python bears no technical resemblance to the old. The new Python is purportedly being made in Sri Lanka using a newly designed,
TOTAL BULL !!!
but as yet untested, chassis to which a body from new moulds, as yet unchecked in respect to fit, will be fitted over BMW mechanics, but as yet untried.
MORE BULL

JUST HOW MANY LIES do you have to print TO BE CALLED A LIER THEN DEN ???


[
So BigRon, what’s wrong with this editorial. I’m all ears. I note you responded to Ex-Biker (thanks Mark) as follows:-
WELL ITS ALL BULLSHIT !!is that ok

[kitcarman]

PetrolTed said:

Might I suggest you resolve this matter on a one to one basis rather than on a forum? Jangles keys

Vince,
PetrolTed is the guy who owns and runs this site.

Top guy, the dogs gonads.

If he says we should be communicating off – forum, then he means it.

In any event, I honestly believe that you’re not serving yourself well in making posts of the nature you just posted.

So why not send me an e-mail and we’ll see IF we can find a way to co-exist.

In the meantime, have all you PistonHeads read PetrolTed’s announcement on the home page?

Thanks Ted

Den

[grahambell]

jgmadkit said:

I believe Den's heart is in the right place and would probably even help Vince out with the chassis design if he would let him (I think pride might get in the way here though)

I don't think Vince needs any help with chassis design from Den.

And as for Den's claim that all his jibes against the Python have proved true, no Den they haven't, which is why I started taking issue with you and still do.

Even in your 'amended warning' you keep denying that it's a development of the original. Why - just because 'RV Dynamics had nothing to do with the original Python'. So what? Lots of kit cars have been taken over by new owners who've subsequently made updates/changes.

You also say that it uses a 'body from new moulds, as yet unchecked in respect to fit'. Wrong again Den because Vince has the original Python moulds from Unique Autocraft. They even have a little plate on them saying 'moulds property of Unique Autocraft'.

And you still insist on saying that it's 'purportedly' being made in Sri Lanka when the existence of a factory, several chassis and some bodies tends to prove that it IS being made in Sri Lanka.

As you're so damned hot on taking Filby to task for his inaccurate reporting (and justifiably so) isn't it about time you sorted out your own?