What is British?
Discussion
jeremyc said:
Ariel, Bristol, Marcos and Radical yes, but Strathcarron are dead.
They seemed to be alive and kicking at the Autosport show the other week.
Hmmm, didn't see them, and can't find them listed in the show guide either, unless it's under another name. Sure it was the manufacturers and not a company who just had one on the stand?
jeremyc said:
Then there's Farboud, Ascari and Invicta
I thought we should only count those whi have made several customer cars.
Fair point.
LexSport said:
But in the second, the labour salaries and other associated monies (local suppliers etc.) stay in this country.
Definitely. Guess I was just saying it is a very complex ecominic picture.
The problem with foreign companies operating in this country is that if the mood takes them they may b*gger off somewhere else - just as Nissan are threatening to do about the Euro.
But I'm on an even greater tangent now, so I shall finish!
RichardD said:I’d say it’s getting unneccessarily complex considering the thread was inspired by the case of the Python.
But in the second, the labour salaries and other associated monies (local suppliers etc.) stay in this country.
Looking specifically:- Owned by a Sri Lankan investor.
Made in a Sri Lankan factory using Sri Lankan material and Sri Lankan labour.
Profits will presumably go to Sri Lanka.
Even Vince’s share stays in Sri Lanka because that’s where he lives.
My point was and is that the Python is hardly “Building a future for British kit cars”. That’s what appears on the cover of the magazine in which it’s relentlessly promoted. Den
But Den, at the risk of setting of a 
, I think it will work well for the future of British Kit Cars, if it turns out to be as good as Vince says it will.
If a good kit comes to market and draws more people into the kit car community, it's got to be a good thing for British Kit Cars in general, even if the money is going to a foreign investor.
As for the specifics of whether a particular car is "British", I don't think it applies to the Python all that much as it's not purporting to be a classic British sportscar - it's a replica of a Yank motor for a start (yes, I know the shape comes from the AC Ace which was British, but it's a Cobra rep, not an Ace rep).
This isn't an incitement to riot. It's all in the best possible taste :kennyeverett:
, I think it will work well for the future of British Kit Cars, if it turns out to be as good as Vince says it will. If a good kit comes to market and draws more people into the kit car community, it's got to be a good thing for British Kit Cars in general, even if the money is going to a foreign investor.
As for the specifics of whether a particular car is "British", I don't think it applies to the Python all that much as it's not purporting to be a classic British sportscar - it's a replica of a Yank motor for a start (yes, I know the shape comes from the AC Ace which was British, but it's a Cobra rep, not an Ace rep).
This isn't an incitement to riot. It's all in the best possible taste :kennyeverett:
kitcarman said:
But in the second, the labour salaries and other associated monies (local suppliers etc.) stay in this country.
Guess I was just saying it is a very complex ecominic picture.
I’d say it’s getting unneccessarily complex considering the thread was inspired by the case of the Python.
Owned by a Sri Lankan investor.
Made in a Sri Lankan factory using Sri Lankan material and Sri Lankan labour.
Profits will presumably go to Sri Lanka.
Even Vince’s share stays in Sri Lanka because that’s where he lives.
Den
That's better Den Alex said:
I think a British car is one where the majority of the design and engineering has been done in the UK. Hence the Micra is not British, but a Noble (although assembled in South Africa) is.
But if we include this point, is it as clear cut then?
Anyway, It's a pretty good debate, isn't it?
There ain't much that is purely British!
And I doubt many of us could be given the title 'supporting the British motor industry'
Closest I can get to saying that is a Marlin with Rover donor. The fact I own an Audi, BMW and Toyota sort of spoil it though.
LexSport said:In this particular case I’ve got a whole box of axes to grind -
But Den, at the risk of setting of a
If a good kit comes to market and draws more people into the kit car community, it's got to be a good thing for British Kit Cars in general, even if the money is going to a foreign investor.
I think that’s clear. Having said that, I’m not going to gear up for another
argument – honest! Vince simply doesn’t know how his car shall handle or what it shall weigh until it’s finished. I don’t think anybody disagrees with my pointing out that the claims being made of it are dodgy in they are premature and MIGHT not transpire to be true. This combined with Vince’s unrepentant attitude to that advertising (which continues) and other irregularities in his business conduct causes me to be concerned.
Vince’s obvious animosity toward me
, his allegiances with the magazine which purports to be “Building a future for British kit cars” and his unwillingness to resolve past problems don’t bode well for our future relationship either
. Against this background I have to decide
to what extent I’m prepared to encourage such a venture and weigh what you say. LexSport said:That’s a big “if”
I think it will work well for the future of British Kit Cars, if it turns out to be as good as Vince says it will.
. Vince has claimed here that his new creation is better than a DAX. That’s certainly the impression given in his ads. A very big “if” for a car that’s never turned a wheel, nor even been completed. LexSport said:The big “if” is dealt with above. Sales of Python will not expand the market, but take sales away from other genuinely “British” Cobra manufacturers. Every sale lost to Sri Lanka will weaken the position of one of the dozen established UK Cobra producers.
If a good kit comes to market and draws more people into the kit car community, it's got to be a good thing for British Kit Cars in general, even if the money is going to a foreign investor.
In another thread, Vince suggested making other kits in Sri Lanka. Can anybody honestly tell me that, for example, the manufacture in Sri Lanka of a rear engined sports car would be good for GTM? If it happened, can you envisage anybody in the UK putting serious effort into the development of their next model?
Not a rant
, but a simple statement that I don’t believe that the way this car is being introduced is good. 
Even if the technique succeeds it won’t be good for anybody but Vince, Fib’s and the Sri Lankan economy. Den
grahambell said:
I've thought of some more:
Ariel
Bristol
Strathcarron
Marcos (?)
Radical (?)
Ariel, Bristol, Marcos and Radical yes, but Strathcarron are dead.
There's also a company you might have heard of called MG Rover...
Then there's Farboud, Ascari and Invicta - plus those 2 firms in Coventry making London taxis
pete*s said:
jeremyc said:
I've thought of some more:
Ariel
Bristol
Strathcarron
Marcos (?)
Radical (?)
Ariel, Bristol, Marcos and Radical yes, but Strathcarron are dead.
There's also a company you might have heard of called MG Rover...
Then there's Farboud, Ascari and Invicta - plus those 2 firms in Coventry making London taxis
What I meant to say was:
That would be LTI then (the other taxi manufacturer, Metrocab, went bust). Im not sure they qualify as a kit car manufacturer but they are still British designed and built and use British designed and built engines so good luck to 'em anyway.
Metrocab went bust!! Disaster, I did some interior designing on that car as a young lad....Oh woe is me, it's all my fault etc, etc.
On a lighter note, if the AC ace was British (lets not dispute that one) then why is an AC Cobra 100 % American muscle car, just because it has a yank engine?
I hear that the "genuine" AC shelby Cobra will be hitting our shores soon for $40,000 (or £25K)...Den, we'll be expecting a review.
On a lighter note, if the AC ace was British (lets not dispute that one) then why is an AC Cobra 100 % American muscle car, just because it has a yank engine?
I hear that the "genuine" AC shelby Cobra will be hitting our shores soon for $40,000 (or £25K)...Den, we'll be expecting a review.
Ex-Biker said:
I think a British car is one where the majority of the design and engineering has been done in the UK. Hence the Micra is not British, but a Noble (although assembled in South Africa) is.
[quote=Ex-Biker]
Vince. With this theory, are you producing a 'British' car?
i dont truely believe there is a british sportscar?
as any car using the rover v8(which is an american designed buick lump with uk mobs)can this be called an british engine???? TVR with their own engine must be the nearest to british??
as for building a future for british kit cars?
if the kit is built up in britain, then it must be a british kit car! as far as i can see it!
so therefore it makes no odds where the parts are made, its the fact its a kit car put together in/for the UK.
as for the money going out the country,
if people never bought the (cheep) import kit then no one would sell all the other parts,keeping the money in the UK, not all the money will be going out the country!
So, as i see it,im helping to build a better UK Kit Car future!
We are in a "global" market and have to go were we can get what is needed, to get the product and price that we/you want!
I'm waiting to be Tannered
kitcarman said:
Owned by a Sri Lankan investor.
WRONG!!
kitcarman said:
Made in a Sri Lankan factory using Sri Lankan material and Sri Lankan labour.
WRONG!!!!most of steel from UK and GRP from Singapore (as used by Uk firms)
kitcarman said:
Profits will presumably go to Sri Lanka.
WRONG!!!!!
kitcarman said:
Even Vince’s share stays in Sri Lanka because that’s where he lives.
WRONG!!!!!!
kitcarman said:
why not as it is "for" british kitcar builders and im supplying parts to other Uk companies, that they might not be able to get at the right price to build their cars!!!!
your only peed,
that you never thought of it first,and hows the Bm based cobra in Belgen then den ???? 
how many "WRONGS" does it take to make a "WRIGHT"!!!
SOME OF US LIKE TO MOVE ON...SO WHY DONT YOU!!
Den
Vince,
Well done - you kept to the issues!
I don’t accept that I was “WRONG!” in all my points though.
1. You do have a Sri Lankan investor, so it follows that he takes at least some of the profit.
2. Your products are made in Sri Lanka.
3. You are living in Sri Lanka (or have a very large commuting commitment
).
My point is that sales of your kit in the UK profits nobody but you and your friends. Your argument concerning the ancillary parts doesn’t wash because those parts would be purchased irrespective as to which Cobra kit was purchased in the first place.
Having said all this, as I’ve said before, the thrust of my argument isn’t specifically directed at you, but at the magazine’s claim.
I can feel a hornets nest being opened here!
The AC being American is surely an example of the boot being on the other foot. Shelby set up a ‘foreign’ company to make a car to ‘his’ design, using ‘his’ engine. He’s American, so he saw ‘his’ product American.
The difference, as I see it, is that Shelby made the car here from the drawing-board upward. He didn’t take a Mustang (for example) design from the states and have it made here to cheapen its production to the detriment of American Mustang makers.
I can see certain flaws and inconsistencies in my argument. My main point is that the importation of cheap Cobras will undermine the UK market, not ‘build its future’.
Yes, I’d feature a £25,000 ‘genuine’ Cobra – no problem.
Den
>> Edited by kitcarman on Friday 30th January 17:08
Well done -
you kept to the issues! I don’t accept that I was “WRONG!” in all my points though.vince rvd said:This point is at least half right, as were the others.
Made in a Sri Lankan factory using Sri Lankan material and Sri Lankan labour.
1. You do have a Sri Lankan investor,
so it follows that he takes at least some of the profit. 2. Your products are made in Sri Lanka.
3. You are living in Sri Lanka (or have a very large commuting commitment
). My point is that sales of your kit in the UK profits nobody but you and your friends. Your argument concerning the ancillary parts doesn’t wash because those parts would be purchased irrespective as to which Cobra kit was purchased in the first place.
Having said all this, as I’ve said before, the thrust of my argument isn’t specifically directed at you, but at the magazine’s claim.
mattstead said:Matt,
. . . why is an AC Cobra 100 % American muscle car, just because it has a yank engine?
I hear that the "genuine" AC shelby Cobra will be hitting our shores soon for $40,000 (or £25K)...Den, we'll be expecting a review.
I can feel a hornets nest being opened here!
The AC being American is surely an example of the boot being on the other foot. Shelby set up a ‘foreign’ company to make a car to ‘his’ design, using ‘his’ engine. He’s American, so he saw ‘his’ product American.
The difference, as I see it,
is that Shelby made the car here from the drawing-board upward. He didn’t take a Mustang (for example) design from the states and have it made here to cheapen its production to the detriment of American Mustang makers. I can see
certain flaws and inconsistencies in my argument. My main point is that the importation of cheap Cobras will undermine the UK market, not ‘build its future’. Yes
, I’d feature a £25,000 ‘genuine’ Cobra – no problem. Den
>> Edited by kitcarman on Friday 30th January 17:08
vince rvd said:
i dont truely believe there is a british sportscar?
Having considered this question carefully, why isn't my GTM Libra a British sportcar Vince???
Come to that what about Caterham?
How about the MGF?
Edited to include Marlin 5Exi, before I get an irate message from Mark!
>> Edited by ferg on Friday 30th January 17:30
As KCM said "I’d say it’s getting unneccessarily complex considering the thread was inspired by the case of the Python."
Apart from early specials, The British Kit Car started in the 60s with the Beach Buggy (VW based). Does it really matter that Vince has chosen to produce the Python in Sri Lanka? After all he is reviving a DEAD British Kit Car that nobody else wanted!
The phrase "Building A Future for British Kit Cars" is not in his advert!. It is the logo of the magazine in which he chooses to advertise! (I still disagree with some of the wording of his advert, but thats my opinion, and we have covered that elsewhere.)
At the end of the day, not a lot of what we buy, or eat is actually produced in the UK these days, economics dictate that!!
Surely what matters is the fact that Vince has taken on the Python and, it will still be an available option to anyone wanting to build a kit in the UK. Most of the rest of the parts for the build will still be sourced and bought in the UK! Regardless of where they were manufactured.
It will be SVA'd, registered and taxed in the UK, so,as such it will be a British Kit Car.
Just my twopeneth.
Beware inbound Tannerism
Cheers Chris
>> Edited by Purple AK on Friday 30th January 21:01
Apart from early specials, The British Kit Car started in the 60s with the Beach Buggy (VW based). Does it really matter that Vince has chosen to produce the Python in Sri Lanka? After all he is reviving a DEAD British Kit Car that nobody else wanted!
The phrase "Building A Future for British Kit Cars" is not in his advert!. It is the logo of the magazine in which he chooses to advertise! (I still disagree with some of the wording of his advert, but thats my opinion, and we have covered that elsewhere.)
At the end of the day, not a lot of what we buy, or eat is actually produced in the UK these days, economics dictate that!!
Surely what matters is the fact that Vince has taken on the Python and, it will still be an available option to anyone wanting to build a kit in the UK. Most of the rest of the parts for the build will still be sourced and bought in the UK! Regardless of where they were manufactured.
It will be SVA'd, registered and taxed in the UK, so,as such it will be a British Kit Car.
Just my twopeneth.
Beware inbound Tannerism
Cheers Chris
>> Edited by Purple AK on Friday 30th January 21:01
ferg said:
i dont truely believe there is a british sportscar?
[quote=ferg]
why isn't my GTM Libra a British sportcar Vince???
Come to that what about Caterham?
IS EVERY part british?? as if you got parts from Europa a large number of there parts come from brazil!!! are all the lights electrics British no Bosh bits ?? as the thead was "Whats a British car" just my point is if it is "truly brittish " there should be only british part! as where do you draw a line ? 10% 20% or 50%. just how i see it as from hear i can see so many things people "think" are british but really not as made hear or india but no one points this out!
just my opinion ,
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