Discussion
Come on guys, do you honestly expect Vince to let one of Den's employees near his car after the slatings Den has been giving it?
The only chance of getting a view of the Python that's guaranteed unbiased one way or the other is totalkitcar. Issue 1 of the new regular paper version due out soon (in time for Stafford or Stoneleigh)by the way.
The only chance of getting a view of the Python that's guaranteed unbiased one way or the other is totalkitcar. Issue 1 of the new regular paper version due out soon (in time for Stafford or Stoneleigh)by the way.
Graham,
Don’t you think that’s below the belt?
Firstly, where have I slated it?
Secondly, I’ve been a publisher since 1991 and in all that time nobody has accused me of bias, not even when I was Pilgrim’s boss and therefore had motivation.
Thirdly, it seems that you’re suggesting that Nigel is a mere muppet.
I think you should be ashamed of yourself, especially as your mischievous innuendos come at a point where I’m trying to advance the cause of peace and reconciliation.
Den
Don’t you think that’s below the belt?
Firstly, where have I slated it?
Secondly, I’ve been a publisher since 1991 and in all that time nobody has accused me of bias, not even when I was Pilgrim’s boss and therefore had motivation.
Thirdly, it seems that you’re suggesting that Nigel is a mere muppet.
I think you should be ashamed of yourself, especially as your mischievous innuendos come at a point where I’m trying to advance the cause of peace and reconciliation.
Den
Graham,
I think you were totally out of order with your comments on Nigel Dean, if you have meet him I would be very surprised you would make this comment, and I'm sure if he finds that you have made such a comment he will not be to impressed. I have only recently been speaking to Nigel, and he comes across as a decent, professional journalist with integrity. I do not normally reply to postings on Pistonheads, as I can see Den makes more then enough postings. I don’t always agree with Den, but I will say this, in the 3 years I have worked on Kit~Car Magazine he has always been unbiased, he never pushed his own company (Pilgrim cars), apart from having 2 whole page adverts, which in my opinion any manufacturer would do if they were in the same position he was (e.g. owner of both a Kit Car Company and a consumer magazine). By your comments you seem to be stirring an already volatile situation, indeed if Nigel did go and review this car, I think you will find it would be reported accurately and honestly, with no intervention by Den, in fact I believe Den is very happy for Nigel to do this. I also see no reason why Vince would not let some one like Nigel review his car? If Vince is happy with the finished product then surely it will show Den he was wrong!
Tom Saunders
Marketing/Advertising Manager
Kit~Car Magazine
I think you were totally out of order with your comments on Nigel Dean, if you have meet him I would be very surprised you would make this comment, and I'm sure if he finds that you have made such a comment he will not be to impressed. I have only recently been speaking to Nigel, and he comes across as a decent, professional journalist with integrity. I do not normally reply to postings on Pistonheads, as I can see Den makes more then enough postings. I don’t always agree with Den, but I will say this, in the 3 years I have worked on Kit~Car Magazine he has always been unbiased, he never pushed his own company (Pilgrim cars), apart from having 2 whole page adverts, which in my opinion any manufacturer would do if they were in the same position he was (e.g. owner of both a Kit Car Company and a consumer magazine). By your comments you seem to be stirring an already volatile situation, indeed if Nigel did go and review this car, I think you will find it would be reported accurately and honestly, with no intervention by Den, in fact I believe Den is very happy for Nigel to do this. I also see no reason why Vince would not let some one like Nigel review his car? If Vince is happy with the finished product then surely it will show Den he was wrong!
Tom Saunders
Marketing/Advertising Manager
Kit~Car Magazine
kitcarman said:
Graham,
Don’t you think that’s below the belt?
Firstly, where have I slated it?
Secondly, I’ve been a publisher since 1991 and in all that time nobody has accused me of bias, not even when I was Pilgrim’s boss and therefore had motivation.
Thirdly, it seems that you’re suggesting that Nigel is a mere muppet.
I think you should be ashamed of yourself, especially as your mischievous innuendos come at a point where I’m trying to advance the cause of peace and reconciliation.
Den
Well, I don't want to go over tired old ground here, but I don't recall Den EVER "slating" Vince's Cobra, what he attacked was the advertising claims made for it in WK? such as "better handling", before one had even been on the road....
Also I don't think Nigel Dean would be anyones puppet, from what I have seen he is a man of 100% integrity, and I am sure if he tested Vince's car and found it to be OK Den would be more than happy to print this in his magazine
Sure there has been a bit of "sparring" between Vince and Den the last few months, but most of it has been lighthearted fun, anyhow Den has now handed out the olive branch to Vince, and I think Vince would be well advised to let byegones be bygones and accept it...
It is to be remembered that being past owner of Pilgrim Cars, Den would have ammassed a massive amount of knowledge on Cobra Kits, so I am sure if he had any genuine concerns about ANY make he would know what he was talking about.........
>> Edited by Wacky Racer on Friday 12th March 14:55
Wacky Racer said:
Graham,
Don’t you think that’s below the belt?
Firstly, where have I slated it?
Secondly, I’ve been a publisher since 1991 and in all that time nobody has accused me of bias, not even when I was Pilgrim’s boss and therefore had motivation.
Thirdly, it seems that you’re suggesting that Nigel is a mere muppet.
I think you should be ashamed of yourself, especially as your mischievous innuendos come at a point where I’m trying to advance the cause of peace and reconciliation.
Den
Well, I don't want to go over tired old ground here, but I don't recall Den EVER "slating" Vince's Cobra, what he attacked was the advertising claims made for it in WK? such as "better handling", before one had even been on the road....
Also I don't think Nigel Dean would be anyones puppet, from what I have seen he is a man of 100% integrity, and I am sure if he tested Vince's car and found it to be OK Den would be more than happy to print this in his magazine
Sure there has been a bit of "sparring" between Vince and Den the last few months, but most of it has been lighthearted fun, anyhow Den has now handed out the olive branch to Vince, and I think Vince would be well advised to let byegones be bygones and accept it...
It is to be remembered that being past owner of Pilgrim Cars, Den would have ammassed a massive amount of knowledge on Cobra Kits, so I am sure if he had any genuine concerns about ANY make he would know what he was talking about.........
Edited to keep Den's blood pressure down.
tombs, I never made any comments about Nigel Dean. Although I've never met him, by all accounts he's a decent bloke.
I'll admit that my previous post was phrased badly as it was done in a rush (but sadly not the Dax variety).
The point I was trying to make is that everybody interested in the UK kit car scene knows all about the Den/Filby/Python etc thing. Consequently there could well be the feeling that Filby's mag is bound to be heavily in favour of it whatever, while Den's mag could be biased against it.
The simple fact is that totalkitcar will be the only UK kit car magazine unsullied by the whole sorry affair, and as such is guaranteed to have no axe to grind about the Python one way or the other.
Den, you have slated the Python and you have done so on this forum, with your stating that the chassis is too weak and is bound to flex being just one example.
You might also remember that you also slated Vince and called his abilities as an engineer into question, which is something that I thought was unfair and why I started arguing the toss with you.
Now it's good to see that you've calmed down and are trying to move forward constructively, but in view of the above could you honestly blame Vince for wondering if his car really would get a fair review in your magazine?
Who knows - maybe he'll decide that Nigel Dean would be just the man to ensure that he would get a fair review in Kit Car and offer to let him test it?
That could certainly result in something I'm sure a lot of us would like to see, namely a major step towards finally ending this feud.
I'll admit that my previous post was phrased badly as it was done in a rush (but sadly not the Dax variety).
The point I was trying to make is that everybody interested in the UK kit car scene knows all about the Den/Filby/Python etc thing. Consequently there could well be the feeling that Filby's mag is bound to be heavily in favour of it whatever, while Den's mag could be biased against it.
The simple fact is that totalkitcar will be the only UK kit car magazine unsullied by the whole sorry affair, and as such is guaranteed to have no axe to grind about the Python one way or the other.
Den, you have slated the Python and you have done so on this forum, with your stating that the chassis is too weak and is bound to flex being just one example.
You might also remember that you also slated Vince and called his abilities as an engineer into question, which is something that I thought was unfair and why I started arguing the toss with you.
Now it's good to see that you've calmed down and are trying to move forward constructively, but in view of the above could you honestly blame Vince for wondering if his car really would get a fair review in your magazine?
Who knows - maybe he'll decide that Nigel Dean would be just the man to ensure that he would get a fair review in Kit Car and offer to let him test it?
That could certainly result in something I'm sure a lot of us would like to see, namely a major step towards finally ending this feud.
grahambell said:Sorry Graham, but the clear implication of your post was that Nigel would disregard the truth and dance to whatever tune I was playing. That was not only unfair on Nigel, but implicitly suggests that I’d conspire to influence him to tell pork pies.
I never made any comments about Nigel Dean. . . .
grahambell said:This effectively reiterates the allegation.
. . . . Den's mag could be biased against it. . . .
The ONLY conclusion that could be drawn from this is that you’re accusing me of bias.grahambell said:Wacky Racer dealt with this point. I didn’t slate the Python even here
Den, you have slated the Python and you have done so on this forum, with your stating that the chassis is too weak and is bound to flex being just one example.
. In the context of my being goaded to express my engineering opinion, I pointed out that the Python has a ladder chassis and that I can see defects in its design in comparison to the 1980’s Python. All ladder chassis flex, so my pointing out that it ‘is bound to flex’ hardly amounts to slating it.
The new Python chassis is categorically advertised as being stronger than its predecessor. Vince expressed his view that he stood by that claim, whilst I disagreed and pointed, from my considerable experience, to reasons as to why I believed he was wrong. Again, hardly a slating – me thinks! For goodness sakes, I even said that I’d made similar mistakes in my first Cobra design.
grahambell said:My comments concerning his abilities were, I believe, fair in the light of the crass things he posted on this forum about how he tested aspects of his design. His concluding that his Python was 400kg lighter than a DAX wasn’t exactly confidence boosting either.
. . . you also slated Vince and called his abilities as an engineer into question, which is something that I thought was unfair. . . .
Correct me if I’m wrong
, but I also recall that Vince wasn’t exactly Lilly-white in the name-calling department at the time.grahambell said:That old chestnut again! Please tell Vince that it takes two to Tango. In his posts he’s made it absolutely clear that he’s biased against me in that he regrets that I won my legal dispute with Fib’s and that he considers me a poor engineer and an unreasonable person, etc. Perhaps the fear
. . . could you honestly blame Vince for wondering if his car really would get a fair review in your magazine?
he has is that I’m just like him and his buddy. As Wacky Racer pointed out, I’ve extended an olive branch. Perhaps Vince should reciprocate?
JohnLennon said:
All we are saying….is….give peace a chance .
Den
Give peace a chance? I agree Den, and may I remind you that is something I among others was urging you to do some time ago, both on this forum and by e-mail.
Please read my second post again Den, and hopefully you'll see that I'm not accusing you of bias but saying that the whole Tanner/Filby/Python thing could give some people the idea (rightly or wrongly) that you and your magazine would inevitably be biased. It could also give some people the idea that Filby's magazine would inevitably be biased the other way - couldn't it Den?
By comparison, as totalkitcar has had no involvement there's clearly not even any reason for it to be biased one way or the other so it's likely to be perceived as being neutral.
You're quite right to say that Vince wasn't lilley white in the name calling department, but once again I'm going to have to aid your memory and point out that you were casting aspertions on him and his car before he even knew this forum existed. In the circumstances he can hardly be blamed for retaliating.
However, as you've pointed out, you've held out an olive branch. Whether Vince is prepared to take it or not is up to him.
I hope that he does and that we can finally put all this behind us because frankly it's just become a pain in the arse.
Please read my second post again Den, and hopefully you'll see that I'm not accusing you of bias but saying that the whole Tanner/Filby/Python thing could give some people the idea (rightly or wrongly) that you and your magazine would inevitably be biased. It could also give some people the idea that Filby's magazine would inevitably be biased the other way - couldn't it Den?
By comparison, as totalkitcar has had no involvement there's clearly not even any reason for it to be biased one way or the other so it's likely to be perceived as being neutral. You're quite right to say that Vince wasn't lilley white in the name calling department, but once again I'm going to have to aid your memory and point out that you were casting aspertions on him and his car before he even knew this forum existed. In the circumstances he can hardly be blamed for retaliating.
However, as you've pointed out, you've held out an olive branch. Whether Vince is prepared to take it or not is up to him.
I hope that he does and that we can finally put all this behind us because frankly it's just become a pain in the arse.
kitcarman said:
His concluding that his Python was 400kg lighter than a DAX wasn’t exactly confidence boosting either.
His conclusion that his Python weighs 400kgs less than a Dax is right, it does weigh 400kgs less than the Dax he has..... Just the way he put it was wrong....
My point is he knew what he meant but he has trouble comunicating it...... not everyone is good at everything.
I think he's a good engineer, and as a customer thats all that matters.... I'm also sure Vince will happily show the car off (I don't think he will have a choice).
However I do agree that he needs to tone down his posts as Den has done.... but you have to admit, it is VERY hard not to bite....
BTW
I'll happily let Nigel or any other journalist test either my Ultima or my Nemesis (when its done) if they wanted to.
Graham,
I agree that it has become a pain
, especially in my arse.
Vince isn’t exactly an innocent victim in this - is he? The claims subject to argument are his. He admits to employing a hungry editor/publisher on commission
- the same one that drove me out of my kit car business and (temporarily) out of my mind 
. He also openly expresses extreme animosity 
. I’d say, personally speaking, that Vince is up to his neck in mire
.
However, I’ve put my personal feelings to one side and made my offer at a professional level in order to secure peace. He holds the key to unlocking this conundrum and you’re hardly encouraging him to use it. In fact it seems that you’re intent on ensuring that he doesn’t. Sad
.
Instead of giving credit to my offer
and encouraging Vince to grasp it, you stoke up his insecurity in vaguely and hypothetically suggesting that the background “could give some people the idea (rightly or wrongly) that you and your magazine
would inevitably be biased”. This disregarding the fact that Kit Car has never knowingly published a biased (let alone bent) report on any product
.
. Peace on those terms isn’t really peace is it?
This genie won’t simply go back into the bottle, due in part to the post which instigated this sad detour. In essence, it said buy To Talk It Car – the only ‘clean’ publication of our industry. I’ve no problem accepting that Steve’s new publication is clean, but I object to the inference that Kit Car isn’t (and with it its journalists).
My point is a simple one. Peace requires both parties to negotiate
. In this case me and Vince. It also requires that those who broker it don’t try capitalizing from its absence.
Andy,
I fancy the idea of testing an Ultima
. 
When? Do I qualify as “any other journalist”? 
Den
I agree that it has become a pain
, especially in my arse. Vince isn’t exactly an innocent victim in this - is he? The claims subject to argument are his. He admits to employing a hungry editor/publisher on commission - the same one that drove me out of my kit car business and (temporarily) out of my mind . He also openly expresses extreme animosity . I’d say, personally speaking, that Vince is up to his neck in mire. However, I’ve put my personal feelings to one side and made my offer at a professional level in order to secure peace
. He holds the key to unlocking this conundrum and you’re hardly encouraging him to use it. In fact it seems that you’re intent on ensuring that he doesn’t. Sad. Instead of giving credit to my offer
and encouraging Vince to grasp it, you stoke up his insecurity in vaguely and hypothetically suggesting that the background “could give some people the idea (rightly or wrongly) that you and your magazine would inevitably be biased”. This disregarding the fact that Kit Car has never knowingly published a biased (let alone bent) report on any product. grahambell said:Yes, you wanted me to simply shut up
Give peace a chance? I agree Den, and may I remind you that is something I among others was urging you to do some time ago. . .
. Peace on those terms isn’t really peace is it? This genie won’t simply go back into the bottle, due in part to the post which instigated this sad detour. In essence, it said buy To Talk It Car – the only ‘clean’ publication of our industry. I’ve no problem accepting that Steve’s new publication is clean
, but I object to the inference that Kit Car isn’t (and with it its journalists). My point is a simple one. Peace requires both parties to negotiate. In this case me and Vince. It also requires that those who broker it don’t try capitalizing from its absence. Andy,
I fancy the idea of testing an Ultima
. When? Do I qualify as “any other journalist”? Den
Purple AK said:
kitcarman said:
JohnLennon said:
All we are saying….is….give peace a chance
Den
Amen
Guys
Please
Dens offered the olive branch, Vince has yet to respond, Lets put it to bed and STOP winding!! Cheers Petrol Chris (Sorry Ted)
>> Edited by Purple AK on Saturday 13th March 13:03
PetrolChris,
Thanks for that bit of anti-ranting
advice. However, Can anyone wonder at my rage at constantly having my integrity and that of my magazine and its staff called into question because I’ve exposed what everybody can see is improper practice. I think I deserve a pat on the back, not another kick in the balls.
Anyway, I’ve had a good kip
and been to the doc (or was it dealer
?) for another supply of happy-tabs.
It’s a shame about that detour really. It’s marred what was otherwise a really good topic.
It’s been running for over a week on three forums that I know of.All the threads have been lively and positive and everybody has been exceedingly up-beat.
Actually, I mean almost everybody. A chap on the Cobra site reckons Nigel’s work isn’t worth reading
because he once wrote an article about how to wash a car
(you can guess where it was published 
).
On this forum nearly every participant hasexplicitly stated what good news the arrival of Nigel is, and 
congratulated me (and him) on his appointment. Thanks for that
! Thanks for the many 
e-mails too!
I’m completely certain that Nigel shall bring a fresh enthusiasm and impetus to the magazine and a wealth of material and experience, not to mention his kit car building projects and skills. It’s quite hard to gather and write 60 to 70 pages every month, so with his 20 page contribution, the other staff (including myself) shall be far less pressured, more relaxed and therefore generally more self assured.
I’m just happy that things are continuing to go in the right direction and again, I thank all those who’re encouraging me to press on. In return, with Nigel’s help
, I’ll do my best to deliver an ever improving magazine.
Den
Thanks for that bit of anti-ranting
advice. However, Can anyone wonder at my rage at constantly having my integrity and that of my magazine and its staff called into question because I’ve exposed what everybody can see is improper practice. I think I deserve a pat on the back, not another kick in the balls. Anyway, I’ve had a good kip
and been to the doc (or was it dealer?) for another supply of happy-tabs. It’s a shame about that detour really
. It’s marred what was otherwise a really good topic. It’s been running for over a week on three forums that I know of.
All the threads have been lively and positive and everybody has been exceedingly up-beat. Actually, I mean almost everybody. A chap on the Cobra site reckons Nigel’s work isn’t worth reading because he once wrote an article about how to wash a car (you can guess where it was published ). On this forum nearly every participant has
explicitly stated what good news the arrival of Nigel is, and congratulated me (and him) on his appointment. Thanks for that! Thanks for the many e-mails too! I’m completely certain that Nigel shall bring a fresh enthusiasm and impetus to the magazine
and a wealth of material and experience, not to mention his kit car building projects and skills. It’s quite hard to gather and write 60 to 70 pages every month, so with his 20 page contribution, the other staff (including myself) shall be far less pressured, more relaxed and therefore generally more self assured. I’m just happy
that things are continuing to go in the right direction and again, I thank all those who’re encouraging me to press on. In return, with Nigel’s help, I’ll do my best to deliver an ever improving magazine. Den
Glad you've calmed down Den because it means we might make progress with this.
As I've stated, it was not my intention to question the integrity of you or your magazine, but rather to highlight that in view of past events, SOME people might have reason to think/suspect that the Python wouldn't get an honest review in EITHER of the two established magazines. Especially that Vince might understandably suspect that it wouldn't get a fair review in Kit Car.
However, I openly admit that my original post was badly worded and that people could easily get the wrong impression from it, so here's what I'll do.
I'll publicly apologise right here to Nigel Dean, Den Tanner and Kit Car for any offence or misunderstanding that my initial post might have caused.
I'll also point out that I have in the past on this forum also publically supported the principle of Den's stand against Filby's practices (and still do) even if I have criticised some of his resulting actions.
Right Den, I've made my apology, so the question now is, are you going to be gracious enough to accept it so that we can all finally let this matter lie?
As I've stated, it was not my intention to question the integrity of you or your magazine, but rather to highlight that in view of past events, SOME people might have reason to think/suspect that the Python wouldn't get an honest review in EITHER of the two established magazines. Especially that Vince might understandably suspect that it wouldn't get a fair review in Kit Car.
However, I openly admit that my original post was badly worded and that people could easily get the wrong impression from it, so here's what I'll do.
I'll publicly apologise right here to Nigel Dean, Den Tanner and Kit Car for any offence or misunderstanding that my initial post might have caused.
I'll also point out that I have in the past on this forum also publically supported the principle of Den's stand against Filby's practices (and still do) even if I have criticised some of his resulting actions.
Right Den, I've made my apology, so the question now is, are you going to be gracious enough to accept it so that we can all finally let this matter lie?
grahambell said:
As I've stated, it was not my intention to question the integrity of you or your magazine. . .my original post was badly worded. . .I've made my apology, so the question now is, are you going to be gracious enough to accept it so that we can all finally let this matter lie?
Whole-heartedly, unreservedly and without hesitation, deviation or qualification; your apology is graciously received
. Thanks!
For my part, I’m sorry too – I know I’ve became too sensitive
, but am making real efforts to look forward rather than back. Den
. 
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