Single Seater Road Legal

[hairykrishna]

PAUL. S said:

Its much easier to make a historic single seater road legal, firstly you need to establish its age of manufacture then as long as its over 10 years of age then no IVA required, you just need to get it through a daylight MOT, present your evidence of age to DVLA and off you go if accepted.

This is a piece of information that gives me all kinds of crazy ideas. Can you link me to something on the VOSA site or elsewhere that gives me more information?

Could I really buy something like this;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Monopin-Famous-Single-Seater...

Bodge on a rear light cluster and a horn, road legal tyres and the job's a good 'un?

[singlecoil]

hairykrishna said:

This is a piece of information that gives me all kinds of crazy ideas. Can you link me to something on the VOSA site or elsewhere that gives me more information?

Could I really buy something like this;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Monopin-Famous-Single-Seater...

Bodge on a rear light cluster and a horn, road legal tyres and the job's a good 'un?

Trying to get something like that through an IVA test would be a challenge.

There is a link to the IVA manual at the top of the kit car forum.

[hairykrishna]

singlecoil said:

Trying to get something like that through an IVA test would be a challenge.

There is a link to the IVA manual at the top of the kit car forum.

I'm fully aware of the IVA. Paul seemed to be suggesting that a historic racing car can be put on the road with no more than an MOT and proof of age.

[PAUL. S]

Last time I enquired I was told any vehicle not UK registered, that was over 10 years old did not have to go through what was SVA at the time, but as usual they also said you have to get it through an MOT and provide proof of age and present all this to them before they will make a decision on any specific car.

I am not aware of anything thats changed since then, the rule is more commonly applied to imported road cars but a lot of returning historic racers such as D types etc dont go through SVA/IVA and get registered on age related plate no problem.

Edited by PAUL. S on Wednesday 2nd February 20:23

[hairykrishna]

That's really interesting. I might have to drop VOSA a line and get the up to date rules. I really like the idea of a proper single seater hill climber that I could take out for a spin on the roads if the urge took me.

[dmulally]

Just a quick note that my 23 replica has the same seating position as my old open wheeler. It makes my westy look like a monster truck next to it.

On the road it is not fun at all to drive because nobody can see you. You are, however, a mobile exhaust hole inspector for people next to you at the lights. :-)

[Steffan]

I feel like a child in a sweet shop with all these suggestions and observations and I thank everyone for their contributions, some of which have been quite outstanding.

Despite forty years experience with kit cars I am in the happy position of learning something every day and whilst I do not agree with every opinion there are some seriously knowledgeable individuals contributing to this discussion.

The 10 year rule does appear to be a fact. Racing cars with proven history clearly can be on the road without IVA subject to the satisfaction of the DVLA. My experience with re registering classic cars that have dropped off the system is that if you have sufficient paperwork the DVLA are actually quite helpful.

Just one niggle at the back of my mind. Racing cars are often modified in use as a result of crashes, engine changes, chassis modifications etc. I have an idea that in order to qualify the 10 year+old chassis has to be IN THE ORIGINAL FORM.

If I am right then I think many cars will not actually qualify because the original form has been altered with time and use.

Perhaps one of the real experts on this particular field (I am not) could give us chapter and verse.

Certainly from what I can see the Ebay project http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Monopin-Famous-Single-Seater...

Does seem a real possibility although work would be needed to the ride height etc quite apart from the obvious lighting/body/safety aspects that would need to be addressed.


But if this gives a starting point of a running car there has to be mileage in it. I cannot think its possible to build a car like this to the stage its at for anywhere near the asking price let alone the actual price paid.

[Milky Bar Kid]

As you've guessed, there are very few cases where you can build a car for what you might buy one for. Yes, there are examples, but generally speaking it's cheaper to buy one ready made. Not as much fun, but that's the compromise. With regards to the 10 year rule, I too have been looking into this for an old Sprite I have. And I got the same response, as long as you can show it over ten years old, an MOT, insurance and a completed DVLA form is all you need for them to look at and usually accept. As to how they will ever know if the chassis is in it's complete original form? They can't. Nor do I think they expect them to be. Old roads cars are never original. They rust too much for a start. And mine won't even have it's original suspension or engine, but I've been told they don't really care as long as the chassis is what you say it is. It does seem to be a rather odd hole in the IVA system, but I suppose it's aimed at barn finds and imported classics, rather than race cars. But if that's how the system works, then I see no point in not making use of it. Besides, once it's registered, you an bugger about with it just as you would any other car.

[Lefty]

Steffan said:

I feel like a child in a sweet shop with all these suggestions and observations and I thank everyone for their contributions, some of which have been quite outstanding.

Despite forty years experience with kit cars I am in the happy position of learning something every day and whilst I do not agree with every opinion there are some seriously knowledgeable individuals contributing to this discussion.

The 10 year rule does appear to be a fact. Racing cars with proven history clearly can be on the road without IVA subject to the satisfaction of the DVLA. My experience with re registering classic cars that have dropped off the system is that if you have sufficient paperwork the DVLA are actually quite helpful.

Just one niggle at the back of my mind. Racing cars are often modified in use as a result of crashes, engine changes, chassis modifications etc. I have an idea that in order to qualify the 10 year+old chassis has to be IN THE ORIGINAL FORM.

If I am right then I think many cars will not actually qualify because the original form has been altered with time and use.

Perhaps one of the real experts on this particular field (I am not) could give us chapter and verse.

Certainly from what I can see the Ebay project http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Monopin-Famous-Single-Seater...

Does seem a real possibility although work would be needed to the ride height etc quite apart from the obvious lighting/body/safety aspects that would need to be addressed.


But if this gives a starting point of a running car there has to be mileage in it. I cannot think its possible to build a car like this to the stage its at for anywhere near the asking price let alone the actual price paid.

[Furyblade_Lee]

I am no expert, but it you think you can bung 4 cycle wings, some lights and a hooter on that Monopin, MOT it and then be awarded a log book then I am Spartacus. You MIGHT get away with an old Dtype as you may be able prove others of the type are road legal and have been since the 60's, and historical significance, but 99.99999999% sure there is no way on earth you would get away with that Monpin.

[PAUL. S]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I am no expert, but it you think you can bung 4 cycle wings, some lights and a hooter on that Monopin, MOT it and then be awarded a log book then I am Spartacus. You MIGHT get away with an old Dtype as you may be able prove others of the type are road legal and have been since the 60's, and historical significance, but 99.99999999% sure there is no way on earth you would get away with that Monpin.

I am 99.9999999999999% sure you could, see below

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2210981.htm

If you go for a daylight MOT you dont even need headlights or turn indicators

Edited by PAUL. S on Thursday 3rd February 19:55

[PAUL. S]

I just remembered another interesting fact I found out during my research.

It is perfectly legal to use race tyres on the road.

It does not matter what it says on the sidewall ie "for racing purposes only, not for highway use" as thats just the manufacturuers warranty disclaimer. As long as they have sufficient tread width and depth they are legal to use. They do not have to be e marked either. An MOT tester cannot fail them, and you can not be pulled over or charged for using them.

It is illegal for a supplier to sell them to you for road use unless they are e marked, but that is the only legal involvement.

I even have this in writing from the DOT, as long as the tyre is suitable for the vehicle it is being used on then it is legal to use.

The reason I know this is that my single seater uses 13" rims which are plentiful from Avon but they are all non e marked race tyres, the only e marked tyre availble in F1 widths are the 15" tyres from Michelin for 70s Porsches and Ferraris, so before I looked around for suitable 15" rims that would fit my car I contacted the DOT and they confirmed all the above, so that I can now keep my existing rims and use a set of new 13" Avon wets I already have if I do end up getting it road legal.

[Furyblade_Lee]

How do you prove to your unsympathetic insurance company, in a claim, that your "for racing purposes only, not for highway use" tyres are totally legal? And how do you prove that they are suitable tyres for your vehicle without letters specifically from the tyre manufacturer or the car manufacturer? I see where you are coming from as I used to use ex-Radical Avon ACB10s on my Fury Fireblade, but if I crashed it there would be no wayid want the insurance assesor to see them on the car. I'd be f***** in a claim I am sure. Catetham used to fit them to some versions but as far as I know they were special ones "e" marked correctly for them.

And what are the chances that road legal Formula Vee was made road legal before SVA and IVA? I sure you could make one road legal, no matter what the age but I doubt you could sidestep SVA or IVA, no way.
I have often thought of making an old Formula First road legal, I am sure it could be done but it would have to go through IVA.

[PAUL. S]

Regarding the tyres, if they are made for the car in question and the car passed an MOT with them on,thus proving their legality to be used on the road, then on what grounds could an insurance co dispute a claim? the sidewall description is purely a warranty get out for the manufacturer, a lot of people just scrub it off anyway. Its not illegal to use them and DOT confirmed this to me in writing so how would they win any dispute on a claim? granted they may try it on, but dont they always.

That formula vee still has to pass an MOT every year despite whether it was registered prior to sva/iva so the same applies to a race car not used on the road before, as long as it can pass an MOT and is over 10 years old that is all that DVLA are interested in. You take along the required paperwork, they tick all the relevant boxes and job done.

I realise both concepts above seem daft but thats how it works on both counts, basicially loopholes that are rarely used, so probably not worth the legal hassle of closing them up

[dtmpower]

Interesting topic - sure there was a picture on locost of a single seater being driven in London (can't find it at the moment - vaguely remember the photo to be 70's)

Paul - which single seater do you own ?

[Ferg]

Sam_68 said:

Even then I suspect you'd struggle. The RA271 engine was like a bike unit with the gearbox behind the engine, not bolted to one side.

Off topic, but mildly interesting:

A friend of mine built a mid-engined Mini Pick-Up with a transverse BDA. He mounted it on a motorbike style sump/gearbox casting which positioned the Jordan FI gears behind the engine. An AP clutch and primary chain (from a Saab, I think it was) took the power to the 'box.
He did it in an effort to get the weight distribution as good as he could, whilst allowing room for his inboard rocker rear suspension.

[PAUL. S]

dtmpower said:

Interesting topic - sure there was a picture on locost of a single seater being driven in London (can't find it at the moment - vaguely remember the photo to be 70's)

Paul - which single seater do you own ?

This is mine in period, reynard 88d f3000 run by Spirit in 1988



how it looked when I bought it



making the bucks for the F1 style bodywork to be formed from



The paint scheme and look that I plan to pay homage to, similar period and far prettier than how she looks as a f3000. A f3000 is dimensionally exactly the same as an F1 car, just smaller bodywork and tyres were used.



and some evidence to show that I have a bit of experience of getting things through the system and on the road, my Sierra Cosworth, first registered as a new car in 2001, 14 years after the last one had hit the road - it should have gone on a 51 plate but I had already bought the y reg one

Edited by PAUL. S on Saturday 5th February 09:32

[Steve_D]

PAUL. S said:

You'll never get the shelves back in those kitchen units......the spacings all wrong.

Steve

[hairyarseracer]

so, my 2000 clubsport radical could be road registered without IVA if I can prove it was built and being used on track in 2000 as long as it passes an MOT ?
it has been over in spain, but there is no actual evidence of that...


does that also mean that a self built track used late 90s westfield can also be registered without an Iva as long as you can prove when it was first on the track?

Edited by hairyarseracer on Saturday 5th February 11:19

[PAUL. S]

Steve_D said:

You'll never get the shelves back in those kitchen units......the spacings all wrong.

Steve

well spotted, did the job though and the engine cover buck ended up looking like this in rigid foam, just needs smoothing now ready for a mould to be made

Edited by PAUL. S on Saturday 5th February 12:14