Single Seater Road Legal
Discussion
It isn't possible. No way. As previously stated. The only way to put a single seater on the road is to IVA it, period. The 10 year rules apply to grey imports (proper road cars) and the like, meaning you dont have to stick a rear fog light, MPH speedo and unleaded fuel restrictor disc in. Likewise using "not for street use / for racing purposes only " tyres not invalidating you insurance in a crash.
I appreciate all the advice.
I have spoken to VOSA and two kit car manufacturers whom I know well and are very helpful all of whom maintain in common with a number of contributors that the 10 year rule does not apply to UK cars never intended for road use and not suitable for the road in the UK.
Upon consideration I am inclined to agree that this rule is only meant to apply to grey imports and the like which were built for use on the road.
In just the same way as the DVLA are now seeking to outlaw older kit cars that were never registered properly and insist on IVA issuing VOR notices to the offenders they spot, I can see real problems with this route to getting a single seater on the road.
I cannot see an out and out racer which was only ever built for the track being allowed on the road because its 10 years old.
I am sure we have all seen Kit Cars registered as something very odd like the Ginetta G27 I saw on Ebay. That was a in fact a Robin Hood and not a very good one at that. No way it was or ever had been or indeed had any connection with a Ginetta apart from a made up chassis plate and the Ginetta V5 to match.
I also spotted a Dutton which was in fact a Jago Roadster Hot Road.
I have personally built several Dutton's and Robin Hoods including a Phaeton a Melos and a Legera in the past. There is NO WAY this car had any connection with a Dutton wrong body, wrong chassis, wrong drive train it was a fake.
I think any car registered in this way will be stopped as soon as someone in authority spots it on the road. In fact both the kit car manufacturers, who get involved in trying to help customers in difficulty with wrongly registered cars, quoted cases where just that happened and off the road those cars went.
I am too fat to hide behind lamp posts and I will be building the car from scratch. I do not want pulling over every 5 miles.
Lets be sensible, anyone with knowledge of kit cars knows of these cases and I agree with the correspondents who say 'no chance' its got to be right.
The only possibility is where a car HAS been on the road in the past GENUINELY. There I think there may be a case but with the out and out racers I think it is unrealistic. Furthermore I think real paperwork definitely proving the previous use will be essential. A story and a happy smile is not going to do it I am afraid.
So onward and upward any more suggestions please.
I have spoken to VOSA and two kit car manufacturers whom I know well and are very helpful all of whom maintain in common with a number of contributors that the 10 year rule does not apply to UK cars never intended for road use and not suitable for the road in the UK.
Upon consideration I am inclined to agree that this rule is only meant to apply to grey imports and the like which were built for use on the road.
In just the same way as the DVLA are now seeking to outlaw older kit cars that were never registered properly and insist on IVA issuing VOR notices to the offenders they spot, I can see real problems with this route to getting a single seater on the road.
I cannot see an out and out racer which was only ever built for the track being allowed on the road because its 10 years old.
I am sure we have all seen Kit Cars registered as something very odd like the Ginetta G27 I saw on Ebay. That was a in fact a Robin Hood and not a very good one at that. No way it was or ever had been or indeed had any connection with a Ginetta apart from a made up chassis plate and the Ginetta V5 to match.
I also spotted a Dutton which was in fact a Jago Roadster Hot Road.
I have personally built several Dutton's and Robin Hoods including a Phaeton a Melos and a Legera in the past. There is NO WAY this car had any connection with a Dutton wrong body, wrong chassis, wrong drive train it was a fake.
I think any car registered in this way will be stopped as soon as someone in authority spots it on the road. In fact both the kit car manufacturers, who get involved in trying to help customers in difficulty with wrongly registered cars, quoted cases where just that happened and off the road those cars went.
I am too fat to hide behind lamp posts and I will be building the car from scratch. I do not want pulling over every 5 miles.
Lets be sensible, anyone with knowledge of kit cars knows of these cases and I agree with the correspondents who say 'no chance' its got to be right.
The only possibility is where a car HAS been on the road in the past GENUINELY. There I think there may be a case but with the out and out racers I think it is unrealistic. Furthermore I think real paperwork definitely proving the previous use will be essential. A story and a happy smile is not going to do it I am afraid.
So onward and upward any more suggestions please.
Good to see you with a sensible head on today Steffan. Maybe you got a bit carried away before over the 10 year old "ruling" but good to see sense has prevailed.
I have NO connectiuon at all with the Furore, I know I probably come across as their Sales And Markeing Director, but apart from what I've seen in the mags have no knowledge of it at all, but have you been to see one or had a chat with Russ? In the article in the mag and here on PH he comes across as a straight guy.
Certainly IMHO it's got to be worth a chat or a visit?
I have NO connectiuon at all with the Furore, I know I probably come across as their Sales And Markeing Director, but apart from what I've seen in the mags have no knowledge of it at all, but have you been to see one or had a chat with Russ? In the article in the mag and here on PH he comes across as a straight guy.
Certainly IMHO it's got to be worth a chat or a visit?
To counter this I have been sent a pm by a chap who has also contacted the DVLA and they have confirmed as long as the vehicle is over 10 years old then IVA cannot be applied, there is no stipulation in the ruling that it would have had to be used on the road during that time. As a result he is going ahead with plans to make his racer road legal.DVLA have to follow the exact letter of the law they cannot bend it to suit or verbally add in a proviso that it needs to have been used on the road during those 10 years. Its different for old kits as many were not correctly registered when first built from a modified car and these are the ones that get caught out.
As an example the red car above that is registered in Germany was originally a race car, so not road legal initially, its over 10 years old, bring it to the UK and it can be registered here no problem without an IVA, in fact DVLA would be none the wiser, to them its just a 10 plus year old car and meets the criteria.
Obviously the only way I am going to be able to prove all of this to the doubters is to actually get my car on the road and then report back and thats quite a way away, I am very confident it will happen, but I wont lose any sleep over it in the meantime.
As an example the red car above that is registered in Germany was originally a race car, so not road legal initially, its over 10 years old, bring it to the UK and it can be registered here no problem without an IVA, in fact DVLA would be none the wiser, to them its just a 10 plus year old car and meets the criteria.
Obviously the only way I am going to be able to prove all of this to the doubters is to actually get my car on the road and then report back and thats quite a way away, I am very confident it will happen, but I wont lose any sleep over it in the meantime.
Firstly with regard to the Furore you are correct in that the maker is a very pleasant chap but he tells me the car is no longer available I do not know why.
Secondly best of luck to the chap building the racer into a road version.
You may well be right.
In my profession (accountant) I was always looking at the letter of the law. The whole of tax avoidance is based on the detail of each case.
It seems to me that this may be a matter if interpretation. The proof as you rightly say is in the registration of the car. If you get it through without IVA we will all be following you buying racers in all directions because this will be a major saving over IVA.
Good luck to you if you do succeed telL everyone PLEASE.
Secondly best of luck to the chap building the racer into a road version.
You may well be right.
In my profession (accountant) I was always looking at the letter of the law. The whole of tax avoidance is based on the detail of each case.
It seems to me that this may be a matter if interpretation. The proof as you rightly say is in the registration of the car. If you get it through without IVA we will all be following you buying racers in all directions because this will be a major saving over IVA.
Good luck to you if you do succeed telL everyone PLEASE.
Does the racing car in qustion have legally identifying FiA papers or something which identify the maunfacturer's name or date of manufacturer? Like some sort of log book? What are the DVLA going to write on the new log book regarding date of manufacture or name? What will be written on the MOT Certificate pre-registration? A chassis number like you do on a new pre-IVA kit? What do they determine technically as a "car"?? An 11 year old racing car never intended for road use? An 11 year old ride on lawnmower? An 11 year old go-kart with lights and a horn? The DVLA line will be drawn somewhere, and I think your idea is over that line. It is not a car intended for the road, it is a racing car. I do genuinly wish you the best of luck, it would be great finding a loophole and see everybody rushing out at buying old Formula single seaters and putting them on the road, but alas I think come registration time it could all fall flat. And buying a car registered in that fashion makes the awful idea of buying a Locost registered as a "Dutton" or "Escort Sports" pale into insignificance.
Furyblade_Lee said:
What do they determine technically as a "car"??
An 11 year old racing car never intended for road use?
An 11 year old ride on lawnmower?
An 11 year old go-kart with lights and a horn?
The DVLA line will be drawn somewhere
There are several machine classes other than "car" (private light goods) which could be used to reigster a vehicle - my local business park has some Yamaha farm tractors that they use on road - registered but no lights, no seat belts etcAn 11 year old racing car never intended for road use?
An 11 year old ride on lawnmower?
An 11 year old go-kart with lights and a horn?
The DVLA line will be drawn somewhere
I agree with Furybladelee I cant see this as a means of wholesale IVA avoidance.
I also appreciate if the rule is interpreted this way then the Farm tractors ride on mowers etc are the next step to easy IVA avoidance.
I have already alluded to the Locost registered as a Dutton, Robin Hood registered as a Ginetta etc etc. They certainly will not past scrutiny.
My pals in the Kitcar game can list case after case where they have had enquiries from owners of non complying kit cars where VOR notices have been issued on the spot for these obvious fakes by the police.
And I have certain knowledge that most of cars these have subsequently been scrapped because the cost of meeting IVA is just too high on an old kit car.
There must be more to this rule than we have found as yet: can anyone help with the detail?
And as other contributors have said how do you prove the age of a racing car?
Must be very difficult in the absence of a Log Book and Chassis plate and surely most racers have neither.
Just what do the DVLA want in proof?
MORE CONTRIBUTIONS NEEDED PLEASE!!
I also appreciate if the rule is interpreted this way then the Farm tractors ride on mowers etc are the next step to easy IVA avoidance.
I have already alluded to the Locost registered as a Dutton, Robin Hood registered as a Ginetta etc etc. They certainly will not past scrutiny.
My pals in the Kitcar game can list case after case where they have had enquiries from owners of non complying kit cars where VOR notices have been issued on the spot for these obvious fakes by the police.
And I have certain knowledge that most of cars these have subsequently been scrapped because the cost of meeting IVA is just too high on an old kit car.
There must be more to this rule than we have found as yet: can anyone help with the detail?
And as other contributors have said how do you prove the age of a racing car?
Must be very difficult in the absence of a Log Book and Chassis plate and surely most racers have neither.
Just what do the DVLA want in proof?
MORE CONTRIBUTIONS NEEDED PLEASE!!
Not as yet I was hoping some Pistonheads buff would have the answer,
On balance it seems unlikely that the DVLA would accept any old racer unless there was real detailed evidence and provenance. Seems too easy.
But that is supposition on my part I will keep researching and I invite any comments please
On balance it seems unlikely that the DVLA would accept any old racer unless there was real detailed evidence and provenance. Seems too easy.
But that is supposition on my part I will keep researching and I invite any comments please
I have not read the whole thread so please dont beat me up!
Back in the 80s I worked for Anglia cars (Argo)building formula Ford, F3 and GTP cars, I can remember a local dentist who used to pop in for a visit in his road legal Mallock, totally unpractical today, would not clear a speed bump, and obviously before SVA/IVA etc, but hell what a machine, so I spose anything is possible given time.......and money!
Back in the 80s I worked for Anglia cars (Argo)building formula Ford, F3 and GTP cars, I can remember a local dentist who used to pop in for a visit in his road legal Mallock, totally unpractical today, would not clear a speed bump, and obviously before SVA/IVA etc, but hell what a machine, so I spose anything is possible given time.......and money!
dtmpower said:
I had been thinking of a work around for this issue.
How about registering the vehicle in a country/state that has less automotive red tape, maybe even outside the EU ?
Jersey or Guernsey ? Andorra ? Albania ?
Not allowed to use a foreign registered car on the road here if you're a UK citizen. If you 'imported' it then it essentially has to pass an IVA.How about registering the vehicle in a country/state that has less automotive red tape, maybe even outside the EU ?
Jersey or Guernsey ? Andorra ? Albania ?
oh look a pure racing car, thats fully road legal even though it was never meant to be.
Best contact the sellers and tell them it cannot be done because some fella on the internet is of the opinion that its not allowed, therefore it must be true.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2694313.htm
Best contact the sellers and tell them it cannot be done because some fella on the internet is of the opinion that its not allowed, therefore it must be true.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2694313.htm
PAUL. S said:
oh look a pure racing car, thats fully road legal even though it was never meant to be.
Best contact the sellers and tell them it cannot be done because some fella on the internet is of the opinion that its not allowed, therefore it must be true.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2694313.htm
That's a world away from a F1 style single seater and it's not a racing car - it is a copy of one. It was built within the past ten years, as the advert says, so it wouldn't be using the 'loophole' under discussion in this thread. It most likely passed an SVA. It has very little bearing on if the loophole is valid or not.Best contact the sellers and tell them it cannot be done because some fella on the internet is of the opinion that its not allowed, therefore it must be true.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2694313.htm
Edit reading it again perhaps it used an original chassis. I still bet it passed an SVA though.
Edited by hairykrishna on Saturday 9th April 16:49
It's amazing what can be acheived within the rules as laid down by the DVLA regarding IVA.
For example, if a car was written off as a Cat C or D, then bought back by the owner, or crashed on a trackday and dealt with outside insurance companies. The chassis can be 'repaired' and the DVLA will not bat an eye lid providing the chassis number remains the same.
I'll leave the rest to your imagination...
How far you take the repair is grey area. I know of a few cars that have been legitimately been rebuilt using this principle.
For example, if a car was written off as a Cat C or D, then bought back by the owner, or crashed on a trackday and dealt with outside insurance companies. The chassis can be 'repaired' and the DVLA will not bat an eye lid providing the chassis number remains the same.
I'll leave the rest to your imagination...
How far you take the repair is grey area. I know of a few cars that have been legitimately been rebuilt using this principle.
Was just reading this page as the topic had come back to the top of the pile again & I noticed this statement
"Firstly with regard to the Furore you are correct in that the maker is a very pleasant chap but he tells me the car is no longer available I do not know why"
Steffan, I'm the maker of the Furore (& indeed a very pleasant chap
), but I don't believe we've spoken, tho' I know I missed a call from you which I returned only for you to miss mine! I can assure you the Furore is still being made & I usually have both kits & cars available for sale (tho' not at the sort of budget you speak of in your early posts on this subject), if you're referring to the German F3 car rather than one of mine then I think I know who owns it & TTBOMK it's still in Germany & I don't think you'd be likely to persuade the owner to part with it in any great hurry.
With regard to the age thing with DVLA/VOSA my understanding is that is only intended to cover vehicles that either have been in, or were intended for, road use & have been manufactured & registered in significant numbers. i.e. you could import a ten year old car registered in another country, or possibly something like a petrol golf buggy/utility type vehicle & get it registered on just an MoT, but I don't think there is any chance of registering a one-off or ex-race car in this way. Please, please someone go ahead & prove me wrong, I'd love to see more unique & unusual vehicles around providing they are safe enough to pass MoT & meet construction & use regs.
"Firstly with regard to the Furore you are correct in that the maker is a very pleasant chap but he tells me the car is no longer available I do not know why"
Steffan, I'm the maker of the Furore (& indeed a very pleasant chap
), but I don't believe we've spoken, tho' I know I missed a call from you which I returned only for you to miss mine! I can assure you the Furore is still being made & I usually have both kits & cars available for sale (tho' not at the sort of budget you speak of in your early posts on this subject), if you're referring to the German F3 car rather than one of mine then I think I know who owns it & TTBOMK it's still in Germany & I don't think you'd be likely to persuade the owner to part with it in any great hurry.With regard to the age thing with DVLA/VOSA my understanding is that is only intended to cover vehicles that either have been in, or were intended for, road use & have been manufactured & registered in significant numbers. i.e. you could import a ten year old car registered in another country, or possibly something like a petrol golf buggy/utility type vehicle & get it registered on just an MoT, but I don't think there is any chance of registering a one-off or ex-race car in this way. Please, please someone go ahead & prove me wrong, I'd love to see more unique & unusual vehicles around providing they are safe enough to pass MoT & meet construction & use regs.
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