Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[qdos]

Interesting Stuart. Good to see you're back on the electric trikes again I'm doing something pretty similar myself too! Yep the suspension geometry does get pretty complicated it's like trying to work with everything made out of elastic as there's so much stuff moving about. Should be fun to ride though when it's done

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

I am too busy to write a book but more than happy to contribute to one if you go ahead, just email me and ask for help on specifics when you get started. I did write a book once on "middy/design/building". Never felt it was written well enough to publish but it has all the tech know how included.
The trike I am designing for myself at the moment tilts when cornering so that would be an interesting chapter. I consider a KA (or similar)front end and an electric powered rear wheel would be a good option for a hybrid 3 wheel drive trike! That's another chapter and then another re battery chemistry, motor/controller set ups etc. The black art of steering geometry gets interesting when you include elements such as trail for motor cycle forks and progressive link rear suspension. Then a chapter could cover ackerman/castor/camber/roll axis etc etc.
Could be a great resource book.

Interesting that your idea for the a 3 wheel hybrid drive is the same as that used by the XR3. That also has a front wheel drive ICE and an electric rear.

It also sounds like you have a few good ideas for a book. Have you considered letting a publisher look at the book on "middy/design/building", or putting it on the web.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 17th December 17:18

[Steffan]

KDIcarmad said:

Stuart Mills said:

I am too busy to write a book but more than happy to contribute to one if you go ahead, just email me and ask for help on specifics when you get started. I did write a book once on "middy/design/building". Never felt it was written well enough to publish but it has all the tech know how included.
The trike I am designing for myself at the moment tilts when cornering so that would be an interesting chapter. I consider a KA (or similar)front end and an electric powered rear wheel would be a good option for a hybrid 3 wheel drive trike! That's another chapter and then another re battery chemistry, motor/controller set ups etc. The black art of steering geometry gets interesting when you include elements such as trail for motor cycle forks and progressive link rear suspension. Then a chapter could cover ackerman/castor/camber/roll axis etc etc.
Could be a great resource book.

Interesting that your idea for the a 3 wheel hybrid drive is the same as that used by the XR3. That also has a front wheel drive ICE and an electric rear.

It also sounds like you have a few good ideas for a book. Have you considered letting a publisher look at the book on "middy/design/building", or putting it on the web.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 17th December 17:18

I do not doubt that the book would elicit significant response.

The three wheeler market has died on its legs over the years. Affluent society is the primary cause IMO.

Four wheel toys are viewed in general as more fun, safer and generally better. I do not personally agree.

Certainly with the volume of old kit cars on offer for very little money the economics which originally drove Three Wheelers have disappeared.

I do think that there is a market for such a book.

Someone such as Stuart Mills is the ideal candidate informed, driven, good communicator, ideas man.

Whether SM or others have the available time is an entirely separate question.

I, for one, hope SM does find the time.

The results could kick life into a whole new sector as the Ron Champion book did thirty years ago.

[KDIcarmad]

Steffan said:

The three wheeler market has died on its legs over the years. Affluent society is the primary cause IMO.

The results could kick life into a whole new sector as the Ron Champion book did thirty years ago.

I disagree on the affluent society kill off three wheelers. If that was the case why have Morgan just lunched a new one, their first since the 1952! The real killer was Reliant, or put better the jokes and comments that surround them. Before the 70's there was a different view of three wheelers.

Three wheelers have been and are a small but very important part of the British car industry for many years now. A couple of new ones have been launched, or will be next year. Clearly a few people believe are we do in the three wheeled car. Just look back at the posting on this idea of new low cost three wheeled kit car and you see an interest. All that is needed are the right cars for the market to grow!

As to a book, I feel this could be a dead end, you need a car first then a design followed book. A low cost kit is the more likely route for a car to reach production.

[Steffan]

KDIcarmad said:

Steffan said:

The three wheeler market has died on its legs over the years. Affluent society is the primary cause IMO.

The results could kick life into a whole new sector as the Ron Champion book did thirty years ago.

I disagree on the affluent society kill off three wheelers. If that was the case why have Morgan just lunched a new one, their first since the 1952! The real killer was Reliant, or put better the jokes and comments that surround them. Before the 70's there was a different view of three wheelers.

Three wheelers have been and are a small but very important part of the British car industry for many years now. A couple of new ones have been launched, or will be next year. Clearly a few people believe are we do in the three wheeled car. Just look back at the posting on this idea of new low cost three wheeled kit car and you see an interest. All that is needed are the right cars for the market to grow!

As to a book, I feel this could be a dead end, you need a car first then a design followed book. A low cost kit is the more likely route for a car to reach production.

We disagree on the causes of the failure of the Three Wheeler market years ago.

I think it was primarily rising affluence which ran out the bubble cars and three wheelers in the 1960's. They simply became outmoded en masse.

In addition as Leonard Lord (when chairman of BMC) and the genius Issigonis anticipated in making the Mini in 1959 they produced a winner which did everything the Micro cars did much, much, better and for vey little more money.

Morgan are, as I have commented before, a law unto themselves. Unique.

I think the unique qualities of the conmpany and the avid owners groups supporting the company, are really quite alone in specialist sports car manufacture worldwide.

Who else could make a sucess of the Aero 8?

I do not think the reappearance of Morgan implies a resurgence of three wheeler car manufacturing in the UK.

The forthcoming economic disaster might conceivably do so. Or it might bury it totally. Again.

One of the elements I dislike in the articles frequently seen on Kit Cars is the unavailability in many cases of the completed car.

I therefore most certainly agree it is much better to build the project car as you are writing the book.

That way, the results are immediately capable of being tested. And verified.

I hope you are right about several new three wheelers appearing next year.

[KDIcarmad]

I think we will have to disagree on the point as to why the three wheeler died in the main stream market. I agree the mini did wipe out micro cars in the UK, I hope this ends our debte.

I recently had an interesting conversation with a friend about the use of a fabric body shell on a car. They claimed that BMW had shown a concept car using a fabric body. I had never seen of heard of this car, so looked it up on the Internet. I found they did show a concept car called the GINA in 2008. That used a Polyurethane-coated Spandex skin. Fixed onto "wires" that could be move to uncover light or when doors opened. Below are two picture of the BMW Gina.




Would this work for a low cost three wheeled sports car?

[Sam_68]

KDIcarmad said:

Would this work for a low cost three wheeled sports car?

Well, at the end of the day, it's just a very expensive, very high-tech Velorex, no?

I'm guessing the sorts of materials that owuld be readily available to homebuilders would have fairly limited lifespan though, and would be subject to UV and abrasion damage? And then there's cleaning to think about, unless you can stop grime and muck getting into the weave of the fabric?

[Sat351]

Can't see a three wheeler ever looking nice with any sort of covering as body work, they just look nasty,,

Some nice ideas for cheap three wheeler, but from what's been discussed ie power and performance,,,
The main problem is I can't see it ever being cheap!!!

[KDIcarmad]

Sam_68 said:

Well, at the end of the day, it's just a very expensive, very high-tech Velorex, no?

I'm guessing the sorts of materials that owuld be readily available to homebuilders would have fairly limited lifespan though, and would be subject to UV and abrasion damage? And then there's cleaning to think about, unless you can stop grime and muck getting into the weave of the fabric?

Well spandex is Lycra, its UK brand name. A cheap fabric. I agree on home builders having a problem, I mean this is a car size swimsuit.It would take some skill to put together. As to grim and muck it would be a problem, a flexible paint coating? Or could you just take it off and wash it? Big washing machine needed!

Personal I see this as a kit where you get the body skin and Chassis form a manufacturer. Just like a normal kit you fit the engine and interior. I notice a comment on looks, does the BMW Gina with its door shut (top photo), not look like a normal hard bodied car? I will admit I was a bit iffy over a skin body before see the BMW Gina, now I think it could work.

[Sam_68]

KDIcarmad said:

Well spandex is Lycra, its UK brand name. A cheap fabric....

Yes, but apart from the obvious cleaning problem, I think Spandex/Lycra is UV sensitive and so would degrade with extended exposure to sunlight (I can't confirm this for sure, however, as I only wear it on special occasions ).

Fine for a concept car at a motor show, but not really practical for genuine road use?

[fuoriserie]

I think something like Taurpalin could be considered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpaulin
http://www.tarpaulinsdirect.co.uk/TarpaulinsSite/p...

But maybe the material used on Tenders fit better and the idea of a material that can take a lot of abuse over time and might work for the body contours of a 3wheeler shape...

http://www.novurania.com/html/equator-series/equat...

Just a thought...

[KDIcarmad]

fuoriserie said:

Interesting discussions and comments as always.....

Isn't there a gap in the kitcar market for a modern low cost threewheeler ? something like a modern Lomax, but using modern running gear...

What do you all think ?

I feel the book idea has pulled us away from this being a kitcar. A modern Lomax, a low cost fun car, with modern running gear. I remember the first Lomax in the Kitcar press back in the 1980's. Then it was a bit different and offered a lot. Now its only the lack of 2CV's that puts me off one.

We need to start with a blank sheet of paper and design a simple low cost fun three wheeled car, a sportscar?. A quick out line of the concept will be needed (using the Lomax as a template). Two seats comfortable, small engine (1-1500cc), weather protection (optional on all Lomax) and crash protection. To this I would add aerodynamic and good acceloration 0-60.

I would aim for a kit price under £1500 with an on the road of 3000, most build will go over this as owner go for the improvement option like better tires and leather seats.

[Steffan]

KDIcarmad said:

fuoriserie said:

Interesting discussions and comments as always.....

Isn't there a gap in the kitcar market for a modern low cost threewheeler ? something like a modern Lomax, but using modern running gear...

What do you all think ?

I feel the book idea has pulled us away from this being a kitcar. A modern Lomax, a low cost fun car, with modern running gear. I remember the first Lomax in the Kitcar press back in the 1980's. Then it was a bit different and offered a lot. Now its only the lack of 2CV's that puts me off one.

We need to start with a blank sheet of paper and design a simple low cost fun three wheeled car, a sportscar?. A quick out line of the concept will be needed (using the Lomax as a template). Two seats comfortable, small engine (1-1500cc), weather protection (optional on all Lomax) and crash protection. To this I would add aerodynamic and good acceloration 0-60.

I would aim for a kit price under £1500 with an on the road of 3000, most build will go over this as owner go for the improvement option like better tires and leather seats.

I wish you well with the project.

If it can be done you will sell a great many kits. £1500 is rock bottom pricing for a decent, modern, aerodynamic, attractive looking Kit Car. All up build at £3000 is an excellent target.

If you could make it one donor design based on a reliable available donor car and use as many of the donor components as possible, then ,I think you would have a real winner.

I can think of several Kit car manufacturers who would look seriously at that vehicle as a possible commercial project, if that interests you.

Question is really can the design/test car be created?

[Sat351]

At a price of £1500 I can't see it, - that's a mean task!!!

[fuoriserie]

KDIcarmad said:

I would aim for a kit price under £1500 with an on the road of 3000, most build will go over this as owner go for the improvement option like better tires and leather seats.

That kit price is a challenge but you should first work out a design Project brief and then work from there.
Start by deciding if it will it be car based and single donor? will it be motorcyle based or scooter ? front or rear wheel drive ? the type of chassis, spaceframe or monocoque? the body...and so on.

The price of the kit will be easier to work on when you have all this info.

Personally I would like to have a motorcycle based 3wheeler but I can see a cheaper option by using a fwd citycar single donor a very good option for an inexpensive and fun 3wheeler, in the vein of the Mosquito Triad.

I think both concept could have potential in a new niche market, for a fun and inexpensive 3wheelers, but the single donor approach would be paramount to achieving your targeted price.

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 26th December 21:16

[Steffan]

Interesting stuff.

IMO the A series Mini base three wheelers cannot be really effective.

The short bonnet and high engine position make good aerodynamic performance and a really attractive mould shape extremely difficult.

There are a great many Matiz and similar modern cars going for scrap as car sales plummet.

Given the lightweight end vehicle that I would expect a good designer to be aiming for, I would suggest a really modern lightweight updated design based on one of these.

Aiming at all up build costs of £3,000 can only be achieved with a one make car IMO.

Using all the existing suspension, steering, brakes, Dashboard, engine, gearbox etc and the trim, seat belts etc would reduce costs significantly.

It would also produce a very drivable car with an abundant supply of mechanical spares.

But we MUST have the look.

Designing it is beyond me but can anyone else create such a car?

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Interesting stuff.

IMO the A series Mini base three wheelers cannot be really effective.

The short bonnet and high engine position make good aerodynamic performance and a really attractive mould shape extremely difficult.

There are a great many Matiz and similar modern cars going for scrap as car sales plummet.

Given the lightweight end vehicle that I would expect a good designer to be aiming for, I would suggest a really modern lightweight updated design based on one of these.

Aiming at all up build costs of £3,000 can only be achieved with a one make car IMO.

Using all the existing suspension, steering, brakes, Dashboard, engine, gearbox etc and the trim, seat belts etc would reduce costs significantly.

It would also produce a very drivable car with an abundant supply of mechanical spares.

But we MUST have the look.

Designing it is beyond me but can anyone else create such a car?

We would need someone to take care of designing a chassis for the single donor and I could come up with some styling concepts just for fun...

Maybe we could open an Open Source design project where everyone can contribute something or their expertise ? just an idea....

I think that an ol Fiat Cinquescento/Seicento or Fiat Panda is even cheaper than the Matiz as a donor and the Fiat Fire engine is bullet proof...

Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 28th December 09:30

[slomax]

Steffan said:

Interesting stuff.

IMO the A series Mini base three wheelers cannot be really effective.

The short bonnet and high engine position make good aerodynamic performance and a really attractive mould shape extremely difficult.

There are a great many Matiz and similar modern cars going for scrap as car sales plummet.

Given the lightweight end vehicle that I would expect a good designer to be aiming for, I would suggest a really modern lightweight updated design based on one of these.

Aiming at all up build costs of £3,000 can only be achieved with a one make car IMO.

Using all the existing suspension, steering, brakes, Dashboard, engine, gearbox etc and the trim, seat belts etc would reduce costs significantly.

It would also produce a very drivable car with an abundant supply of mechanical spares.

But we MUST have the look.

Designing it is beyond me but can anyone else create such a car?

I have often thought that the ford KA would be a good donor for a cheap three wheeler, but again, it would be difficult to get the styling right. They are plentiful and cheap.

[KDIcarmad]

slomax said:

I have often thought that the ford KA would be a good donor for a cheap three wheeler, but again, it would be difficult to get the styling right. They are plentiful and cheap.

I own a Ford KA, a good car, but the engine is an old design and not that light. The engine dates back to the 1960's, yes it has been updated, but is still an old design. I like the idea of a Matiz or a person fave the Mercedes A-class (you can now find these under £1000). Both offer a lot, modern lightweight engine. If the single rear wheel is to be driven a motorbike engine would be a better choice. This could be rear/mid fitted or front with a drive shaft. I would love to use a cheap twin V motorbike but cost could stop this.

Should we go FWD or RWD? This would effect select of the engine a lot.

[slomax]

bmw bike boxer engines are shaft. so you could use the engine, gearbox, shaft drive to the rear wheel where you can use the bike suspension and final drive.

same for moto-guzzi too.

I dont know how much it costs getting a long drive shaft made with the correct fitments?

Trouble then is getting the front suspension and steering from a current car cheaply. Chassis fabrication is relativley cheap in box section steel, and builders can sort thier own interior as they wish. Then there is the body, which can be expensive.....