Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[Steffan]

There are designs about for quaife type reverse system which does offer an alternative reverse system see

http://www.autotech.com/quaife/Motorcycle/cycle.ht...

I believe there are also auxiliary electric motors which offer some alternatives but I do not have details. I will see of I can find more on these.

[Stuart Mills]

You could look at caravan movers and small electric car jacks. Often a suitable motor can be found. No reverse needed for MSVA. A basic method could be a friction wheel on the tyre.

[Steffan]

Martin A said:

Does anyone have any ideas about getting a scooter to run in reverse, either by modifying the transmission or the direction of the engine.

I know that a certain type of bubble car used to change the engine direction for reverse but I'm looking to build a rear rather than mid engined trike with a CVT and have reached this stumbling block.

I see Stuart Mills has suggested some thoughtful ideas which are certainly worth a look. I have now found a source for electric reverse on bike engined cars and a good few other bits for such cars at

http://www.westhouse.plus.com/chaindrive1.htm

Happy Kit Car building! Incisentally I assume the Messerschmidt was the car you were thinking of with the Dynastart system where the engine was run in reverse (being a 2 stroke) and there were four reverse gears available in consequence. It did work but was a slow and cumbersome procedure.

The early Bond three wheelers had no reverse but the engine/front wheel assembly swiveled through about 19o' odd on a central mounting and on full lock in either direction the car would literally pivot on the stationary rear wheel and could pull out of any parking position. In fact the car felt as though it was reversing because the moving rear wheel traveled backwards. Those were the days! NOT!!!!

[Martin A]

Sorry if I didn't explain myself succinctly. I'm looking to reverse the direction so I can turn the assembly back to front and have a rear engined 2F1R trike. By that I mean that the engine is behind the rear wheel a la VW Beetle.

Edited to add

Not being familiar with two strokes, does that mean if I reversed the direction that the starter motor went, that the engine would run in reverse once it started with no other mods necessary? Assuming of course that its not driving any ancillaries.

Edited by Martin A on Saturday 15th February 12:54

[Steffan]

Martin A said:

Sorry if I didn't explain myself succinctly. I'm looking to reverse the direction so I can turn the assembly back to front and have a rear engined 2F1R trike. By that I mean that the engine is behind the rear wheel a la VW Beetle.

Edited to add

Not being familiar with two strokes, does that mean if I reversed the direction that the starter motor went, that the engine would run in reverse once it started with no other mods necessary? Assuming of course that its not driving any ancillaries.

Edited by Martin A on Saturday 15th February 12:54

Secondary crankcase compression and transfer port settings are two problems with two stroke reciprocation. The Dynastart was fitted to a 200 cc Sachs engine in the Messerschmidt three wheeler I think. How efficient the reverse running would be in power terms depends on the two settings (and the Magneto etc etc) above which will not necessarily work well in reverse. The reversal of a two stroke has been used before no doubt the WWW will provide details.

I would AVOID at all costs "By that I mean that the engine is behind the rear wheel a la VW Beetle." that layout. Although the engine and drive train will be relatively light so will the rest of the car and the dumbbell effect of the that lot behind the rear wheels will be very tricky IMO. Sudden breakaway in the wet could be both vicious and terminal unless you are very careful indeed which in a sports three wheeler is unlikely. Renault Dauphine being the worst car with that configuration I ever drove Skoda Rapide coupe was (same problem) nearly as bad. And of course the 911. Now there is a challenge on wet corners!

If you are designing this project from scratch take a look at the old Berkeley three wheeler deigned by Laurie Bond (of Bond cars fame) in 1950, which are still IMO head and shoulders above the rest in design terms. The engineering (Anzani and Royal Enfield) let them down but as a design never bettered IMO. Fusoierie on PH is a real expert and could probably offer really worthwhile advice on such a configuration and anything relating to Three Wheelers in fact. He is a designer by training and clearly has an encyclopedic knowledge of this subject. I have been building Kit cars for 50 odd years (I am nuts!) but I am a Chartered Accountant (happily retired) and my design skills are nil. Good luck to you in your build. I would look at the Berkeley. Be interesting to see the results and I do wish you well. I would research carefully first.

[Martin A]

Thanks for that info about the reversing of 2 strokes. I've also done some research elsewhere and I think it'll have to be done transmission wise.

I'm aware of the conventional advantages of a FWD 2F1R but as I'm not opting for a huge weight at the rear like a 911, primitive suspension or a high C of G I want to try this more as an intellectual exercise.

It won't necessarily be for use on the road, as I see it being more track oriented. I'll keep you all posted if I have any success with changing the direction of a scooter transmission.

[Steffan]

Martin A said:

Thanks for that info about the reversing of 2 strokes. I've also done some research elsewhere and I think it'll have to be done transmission wise.

I'm aware of the conventional advantages of a FWD 2F1R but as I'm not opting for a huge weight at the rear like a 911, primitive suspension or a high C of G I want to try this more as an intellectual exercise.

It won't necessarily be for use on the road, as I see it being more track oriented. I'll keep you all posted if I have any success with changing the direction of a scooter transmission.

Worth a topic in itself on PH IMO. The layout and consequent suspension qualties you are utilising in an attempt to redeem the inherent dangers of that layout underline the problems it brings to me. In a lightweight vehicle (track condition 500 Kilo's? odd) the slightest tendency for the dumbbell effect to drive the car could be virtually impossible to predict. And virtually impossible to correct. Having the heaviest items in the car outside the wheelbase with a single rear wheel trying to provide power and sustain grip in front of that weight seems to me to be very suspect with the whole weight of the power unit and drive train balanced behind the rear wheel

I strongly advise talking to and discussing your plans with the real experts like Stuart Mills and fuoriserie and all the other enthusiasts on PH who have built and are building such designs currently. They may well support your view and not mine. I certainly do not want to reduce your obvious enthusiasm. But I would strongly advise seeking expert opinion before settling for that particular design. I am sure a topic on this would elicit a lot of interest. The theoretical and practical considerations of Bike engine Kit Car design is a well appreciated field within Kit Cars.

[CRJ3]

The Messerschmitt had two set of points, one for forward and the other one for reverse. When you like to reverse you had to stop the engine first.
Than you restart the engine with the other set of points in reverse. It was said you could drive in reverse as fast as driving forward.
But I never tried it.
But we tried something similar. My friend had a NSU Quickly moped. 2 Stroke of course. He was standing and talking to me.
The engine was switched off, but still in gear. I grabbed the handle bar and pushed him backwards. The engine started and was running backwards
and so the moped did, to our very surprise.
AFAIK modern 2 stroke engines prevent running backwards with a diode in the ignition system.

[Martin A]

Steffan, I appreciate your knowledge and experience and understand your concern. I always look forward to your posts.

To put you at ease I feel that I should tell you that I have experience and knowledge of race car engineering and vehicle dynamics and I am quite aware of the perceived and actual problems with vehicles that have a large rear weight bias.

That being said, a couple of years ago or so when the Nissan Delta Wing first appeared I was probably one of the few who knew it would work so well.

The ideas that I have for this vehicle are dynamically sound and more radical than the Delta Wing which was in essence very similar to a VW trike or a Trivette, and so its dynamics should have been less of a surprise than they were.

If I were to explain the concept to yourself, Stuart or Furioserie or many others I'm sure that all would appreciate and understand the theory of it, but as it's such a novel concept I wish to keep the ideas private until I've assessed it's actual potential.

I don't intend to overpower it, for as I say, its main purpose is one of confirmation of ideas.

Edited by Martin A on Saturday 15th February 22:13

[fuoriserie]

Another T-Rex inspired Threewheeler manufactured in Germany:

http://www.threewheelfactory.de/terzo/gallerie.php

and another in the USA:

http://tanommotorsusa.com/

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 15th February 23:29

[Steffan]

Martin A said:

Steffan, I appreciate your knowledge and experience and understand your concern. I always look forward to your posts.

To put you at ease I feel that I should tell you that I have experience and knowledge of race car engineering and vehicle dynamics and I am quite aware of the perceived and actual problems with vehicles that have a large rear weight bias.

That being said, a couple of years ago or so when the Nissan Delta Wing first appeared I was probably one of the few who knew it would work so well.

The ideas that I have for this vehicle are dynamically sound and more radical than the Delta Wing which was in essence very similar to a VW trike or a Trivette, and so its dynamics should have been less of a surprise than they were.

If I were to explain the concept to yourself, Stuart or Furioserie or many others I'm sure that all would appreciate and understand the theory of it, but as it's such a novel concept I wish to keep the ideas private until I've assessed it's actual potential.

I don't intend to overpower it, for as I say, its main purpose is one of confirmation of ideas.

Edited by Martin A on Saturday 15th February 22:13

Excellent. Clearly you know what you are about. Best of luck with the build I will be interested to hear the results. Rear weight bias fills me with concern esp in a three wheeler but no doubt you have a cunning plan.

[fuoriserie]

http://www.g-2.ca/productsVTRS_eng.html

The G2 Three wheeler.

[Fer]

fuoriserie said:

http://www.g-2.ca/productsVTRS_eng.html

The G2 Three wheeler.

Looks interesting.

[Martin A]

Steffan said:

Excellent. Clearly you know what you are about. Best of luck with the build I will be interested to hear the results. Rear weight bias fills me with concern esp in a three wheeler but no doubt you have a cunning plan.

So cunning that I've had to be on a diet of weasel brains for the last five years just to come up with it

[Auntieroll]

The only thing stopping most (reed valve or piston ported) two strokes from running backwards is the ignition timing. There could be some asymmetry in the cylinder timing events if the centre of the cylinder axis is offset but it would be slight.
Some means of reversing the starter motor direction would also be needed (the SIBA Dynastart equipped engines used the flywheel as a starter /generator )if the reversing switch was inadvertently moved before the engine had stopped the flywheel rivets could shear which made starting somewhat problematical afterwards!! and no I didn't do it, but I knew a man who did...
There are all sorts of potential detail problems regarding clutch and drivetrain, not to mention sorting the flywheel magnet and ignition trigger positions out etc;...

That explains the basics HTH

[Steffan]

Auntieroll said:

The only thing stopping most (reed valve or piston ported) two strokes from running backwards is the ignition timing. There could be some asymmetry in the cylinder timing events if the centre of the cylinder axis is offset but it would be slight.
Some means of reversing the starter motor direction would also be needed (the SIBA Dynastart equipped engines used the flywheel as a starter /generator )if the reversing switch was inadvertently moved before the engine had stopped the flywheel rivets could shear which made starting somewhat problematical afterwards!! and no I didn't do it, but I knew a man who did...
There are all sorts of potential detail problems regarding clutch and drivetrain, not to mention sorting the flywheel magnet and ignition trigger positions out etc;...

That explains the basics HTH

Quite correct and few makers have tried that route for the reasons stated and because it was not a cheap solution always beloved of car makers. Bent wire being better than screws etc. I think it was an interesting anachronism. I remember the problems it caused if misused. All too easily. Back then rebuilding engines was fun but it is not quite the same any more with the costs in a different league and complexity (eg non safe running OHC high lift engines) so much greater. Of course that does give massive benefits in power and low emissions but just replacing a clutch is expensive never mind reboring and new pistons etc. Engine failure unless the car is collectible really means the end of the road for modern cars.

[fuoriserie]

http://finchmotor.com/photos.html

A new Trike with a 250cc engine

[fuoriserie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-63A7Bwecs

The Badsey Bullet video

[Steffan]

fuoriserie said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-63A7Bwecs

The Badsey Bullet video

I thought I had seen this before and indeed see:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/11/08/hemm...

It is remarkable how many of these three wheeler's are created by enthusiasts and sadly how few reach even double figures in production. For a whole variety of reasons but primarily not what the customers can either afford or want I think. The very best (my opinion) like the Grinnall and Blackjack and Ariel have their own dedicated followers and the Morgan seems to be a real niche market the Pendleton still sells and so on.

But for some years nothing has really come onto the market and been sustained by demand in the market. In the US truly recreational trikes come and go with the bigger hobby budgets there. Since the Lomax faded in the UK I cannot think of a true volume seller. Lot of probable reasons why but primarily because of MSVA/IVA consequences and the costs and the reduced market for kit cars generally IMO. There are notable exceptions with remarkably energetic individuals making a real success in every sphere of kit cars currently but I suspect they would succeed at whatever they decide to do. Just not many.

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-63A7Bwecs

The Badsey Bullet video

I thought I had seen this before and indeed see:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/11/08/hemm...

It is remarkable how many of these three wheeler's are created by enthusiasts and sadly how few reach even double figures in production. For a whole variety of reasons but primarily not what the customers can either afford or want I think. The very best (my opinion) like the Grinnall and Blackjack and Ariel have their own dedicated followers and the Morgan seems to be a real niche market the Pendleton still sells and so on.

But for some years nothing has really come onto the market and been sustained by demand in the market. In the US truly recreational trikes come and go with the bigger hobby budgets there. Since the Lomax faded in the UK I cannot think of a true volume seller. Lot of probable reasons why but primarily because of MSVA/IVA consequences and the costs and the reduced market for kit cars generally IMO. There are notable exceptions with remarkably energetic individuals making a real success in every sphere of kit cars currently but I suspect they would succeed at whatever they decide to do. Just not many.

Very true, we really need a new Lomax or JZR concept for the year 2014, maybe by using more mass produced available motorycle engines, in the 600-800cc range and exo-skeleton chassis and very simple bodywork...

Another overlooked 3wheeler by the main media, has been the Malone Skunk:
http://www.malonecar.eclipse.co.uk/purchasingkit.h...