Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[Steffan]

Mistrale said:

Steffan - you make it sound so simple "mate it to a FWD gearbox"... I'm curious - how would you do this - keep the bike gearbox and chain drive the FWD diff?

Variety of options. I would consult my pals in engineering and KC manufacturing who would take up the challenge and come up with a low cost solution. Need the monocoque to get precise size requirements. No doubt they would look at all the options the Japanese/far east FWD turbo ecoboost three cylinder engines (which are available relatively cheap from the yards) would be a possibility. Chain drive to an appropriate box as you say, is another, The A series (I love the A series own over six, have owned over thirty Minis) does fit with the Mini set up but is much too heavy for the car IMO. K series (here we go blown gaskets coming!) with turbo could be fun. Hell of an engine but so fragile. Cross bolted trouble. Got six of those.

Over 40 years as a Accountant I have come know a lot of KC makers, repairers and builders because they all need financial advice occasionally. Such a conundrum would be a problem that many of them would relish and I would be spoilt for choice. Same with every engineering problems I ever have I am happily spoilt for choice. Indeed as yet true of every problems I have ever had in life. Never had a problem getting advice from any profession. Constant contact breeds appreciation (or otherwise!!).

I could get purpose designed and made front and rear suspension specifically made for that vehicle for not a lot. Cost of the metal and a bit would be sufficient. I find approached properly most enthusiasts, which KC makers have to be, find the challenge more interesting than the money in it. True of all KC makers that I have contact with. if you go into that business to make money you are following a very difficult route IMO.

Be an interesting project and if I start it I will PH it but not for at least two years I have got too many cars. Hell of an admission from a compulsive/obsessive, Me!

[Mistrale]

Thinking our loud, which is never a good idea....

How about a quad engine and rear diff? The ones with diffs I found also had reverse. These would be great in the front of a Berkeley I think! Would love to develop this!

[Steffan]

Mistrale said:

Thinking our loud, which is never a good idea....

How about a quad engine and rear diff? The ones with diffs I found also had reverse. These would be great in the front of a Berkeley I think! Would love to develop this!

Possibly and I appreciate the suggestion. However to give the sort of power and torque I am hoping for and a clutch that might actually stand the weight of a three wheeler +2 adults I think the minimum engine size is 650cc++. A bit beyond Quads I think but I will keep the idea in mind. At least we know the units are not too big!

[fuoriserie]

http://www.toursetdetours.fr/temisto-w3/

A new three wheeler concept with aunique seating position that should go into production by the end of 2014.

[Steffan]

fuoriserie said:

http://www.toursetdetours.fr/temisto-w3/

A new three wheeler concept with aunique seating position that should go into production by the end of 2014.

Well it is indeed good to hear from you again fuoriserie and to be reminded through your efforts of the latest happenings in three wheel development. Using my schoolboy French this looks as though it has legs to me if the prices are affordable to ordinary mortals like me. Any idea of pricing?

Just finished retreading Elvis Paynes Three Wheller and Scooter book with really is an absolutes bible covering three wheeler development back in the last 50 years or so. Quite exceptionally well researched and full of some of the best photos I have seen and it includes some that even I, a fan for over 60 years cannot remeber from the past. And I was there!!

Title of the tome is A to Z of Scooters and Three Wheelers and Mr Payyne's clearly is an expert with real knowledge in depth. Certainly taught me a thing or two with his depth of knowledge.! Published by Veloce publishing and I thoroughly recommend it to anyone interested in the history of this development in motoring. Keep the research up Fuoriserie we need knowledgeable enthusiasts to keep us up to the mark! I am so snowed under with finishing six kit cars I should never have bought my hopes of building another Berkeley have gone on hold but I am getting there three finished so far ths year and three to go. Then the Berkeley will be my next job!

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Well it is indeed good to hear from you again fuoriserie and to be reminded through your efforts of the latest happenings in three wheel development. Using my schoolboy French this looks as though it has legs to me if the prices are affordable to ordinary mortals like me. Any idea of pricing?

Just finished retreading Elvis Paynes Three Wheller and Scooter book with really is an absolutes bible covering three wheeler development back in the last 50 years or so. Quite exceptionally well researched and full of some of the best photos I have seen and it includes some that even I, a fan for over 60 years cannot remeber from the past. And I was there!!

Title of the tome is A to Z of Scooters and Three Wheelers and Mr Payyne's clearly is an expert with real knowledge in depth. Certainly taught me a thing or two with his depth of knowledge.! Published by Veloce publishing and I thoroughly recommend it to anyone interested in the history of this development in motoring. Keep the research up Fuoriserie we need knowledgeable enthusiasts to keep us up to the mark! I am so snowed under with finishing six kit cars I should never have bought my hopes of building another Berkeley have gone on hold but I am getting there three finished so far ths year and three to go. Then the Berkeley will be my next job!

Hi Steffan, thank you for your consideration but as enthusiasts we're always looking for new personal projects to work on and daydreaming is excsllent for my creative juices.

Looking forward to seeing in person your Berkley when ready and if you're going to make the trip to Stoneleigh 2015, you might get to see something new....hopefully....

Cheers

Italo

[Stuart Mills]

Steffan said:

Then the Berkeley will be my next job!

I love the Berkley, I had one in the 80's. A guy in Derby did conversions to Mini power with subframe but I kept the old villiers in mine, careful on the turns now!!
Strangely, the advert next to this post is for the Delta, a "trike" with a stance that "looks" less stable than the Berkeley. My experiments with trikes show the best approach is to use 2 close together at the rear as I did with an electric one years ago. Similar to the one Italo posted details of but I can't see it now.

Edited by Stuart Mills on Friday 13th June 15:46

[Steffan]

Stuart Mills said:

Steffan said:

Then the Berkeley will be my next job!

I love the Berkley, I had one in the 80's. A guy in Derby did conversions to Mini power with subframe but I kept the old villiers in mine, careful on the turns now!!
Strangely, the advert next to this post is for the Delta, a "trike" with a stance that "looks" less stable than the Berkeley. My experiments with trikes show the best approach is to use 2 close together at the rear as I did with an electric one years ago. Similar to the one Italo posted details of but I can't see it now.

Edited by Stuart Mills on Friday 13th June 15:46

Good evening to you Stuart. I do appreciate the way that you have gone the extra mile to try and save something for kit car enthusiasts out of the KITFEST cancellation at Castle Coome, which I realise was as much of a shcck to you as to us ordinary mortal kit car enthusiasts.

I really think your efforts in putting on a gathering for kit car enthusiasts at Curborough on the same date deserves recognition and I will certainly be there with al least one kit car Quantum RS Turbo, possibly two, a Banham Sprite Wood and Pickett Mini conversion and an Austin Healey Frogeye MG Midget God willing and drivers being available. Well done Sir! At least all three are running currently!!

The Berekely was without question IMHO head and shoulders above all other offerings in the last 50 years for driving ability and reasonable cost. Sadly the car was let down by very poor quality from suppliers including Anzani who really let the side down with their three cylinder engine which was not up to the job. The Enfield engined cars were much much better.

Lawrie Bond was a very interesting character who I met more than 50 years ago (charmed childhood) and who created the very best three wheeler I have driven personally. Always something of a Maverick in the most generous sense of the world he really suited self employment better than employment. I have found out in recent years that Lawrie Bond worked for Sir William Lyons at Jaguar during the E type production programme and that fact caused me to further appreciate why the visual aspect of the early Berkeley cars was reminiscent of the E type although in a diminutive form! Nothing like following a brilliant design still never bettered IMO.

Finally may i confirm that your own efforts in kit car design must also be widwely respected and I well remeber your three wheeler electric cars which were excellent, inventive and a very interesting adventure. The diminutive size being most interesting. Your Replicar is quite simply beautiful and just outstanding value for money and as a genuinely easily constructed one donor kit car which has few equals and no real competitors. Your sales levels confirm the exceptional viability of that form as a modern tribute vehicle.

Italo is showing us yet more three wheeler interpretations certainly worth seeing but my concern here would be the anticipated price. To be successful three wheelers must offer enthusiasts excellent value to compete effectively. With so many of the more esoteric and gloriously styled offerings these are just too pricey for volume sales at any level in the UK. But I do admire the quality and designs of some of these glorious engineering projects, even if I doubt their commercial viability personally.

Edited by Steffan on Friday 13th June 20:16

[fuoriserie]

http://through-the-interface.typepad.com/through_t...

Very interesting interview to the Head of Morgan Design..........they currently manufacturing N° 750 three wheelers a year !

[Mistrale]

OK, my three wheeler itch is off again!! Have we looked at this yet, folks? tilting three wheeler

[fuoriserie]

Mistrale said:

OK, my three wheeler itch is off again!! Have we looked at this yet, folks? tilting three wheeler

Very interesting design .

[Baron Greenback]

Like that that design! A busa engine in that light weight trike! That's going to go like the clappers!

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Italo is showing us yet more three wheeler interpretations certainly worth seeing but my concern here would be the anticipated price. To be successful three wheelers must offer enthusiasts excellent value to compete effectively. With so many of the more esoteric and gloriously styled offerings these are just too pricey for volume sales at any level in the UK. But I do admire the quality and designs of some of these glorious engineering projects, even if I doubt their commercial viability personally.

Edited by Steffan on Friday 13th June 20:16

The anticipated price of the turn key 3wheeler I had mentioned in my earlier post is in the region of Euro 30.000.....a little too steep fo an affordable vehicle, but close to that of the current Morgan.

I'd like to think that there is still a niche for a modern JZR equivalent ...( very good on looks and affordable)

Maybe smaller modern motorcycle 600cc engines and components, could make for an alternative to bigger 1000cc and bigger engines...

Just check these used available motorcycles , Ducati, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, small block Guzzi, Aprilia, Yamaha, Triumph, Kawasaki :

http://www.autoscout24.it/Moto/Details.aspx?id=247...

http://www.autoscout24.it/Moto/Details.aspx?id=247...

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Different engine configurations are available to be used in a creative set-up and chassis and as we all know thay can all be upgraded to more power later...

I'd like to see something really different with a V-twin or thee cylinder engine in 2015....

[fuoriserie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSHLh3hvkv8

The Trihawk of 1984 video

http://designmassif.com/trihawk/

website

[muso56]

I've been fascinated by 3-wheelers for years, and restored a Berkeley T60 around 2000, with advice from Dave Ratner in Derby (who produced the A-Series powered Berkeley mentioned above) and very helpful members of the owners' club.
A friend has just rebuilt a 1927 Morgan from a box of bits, and it has reawakened my interest.

The new Morgan and the Triking are beyond my pocket, and I've come to the conclusion that maybe a JZR is where i want to be, but I haven't actually seen one! I wasn't able to get to the Stoneleigh Kit Car show last month even though I live only 20mins away.

Is there a JZR owner out there in the West Midlands who would let me have a look? I've been in touch with the JZRPA, and although I 'm now a member, they couldn't help.

[Steffan]

muso56 said:

I've been fascinated by 3-wheelers for years, and restored a Berkeley T60 around 2000, with advice from Dave Ratner in Derby (who produced the A-Series powered Berkeley mentioned above) and very helpful members of the owners' club.
A friend has just rebuilt a 1927 Morgan from a box of bits, and it has reawakened my interest.

The new Morgan and the Triking are beyond my pocket, and I've come to the conclusion that maybe a JZR is where i want to be, but I haven't actually seen one! I wasn't able to get to the Stoneleigh Kit Car show last month even though I live only 20mins away.

Is there a JZR owner out there in the West Midlands who would let me have a look? I've been in touch with the JZRPA, and although I 'm now a member, they couldn't help.

I cannot help with the JZR availability but I have spotted a three wheeler comparison in the Telegraph some while ago see:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9675884/T...

You may have seen this before but I had not and it is well worth reading I think. There is also a very similar piece in car mechanics which suggests the group test was syndicated. Definitely gives a flavour of what the cars are actually like.

Cheapest way to get into three wheelers nowadays would probably be with a Hudson Renault conversion which are pretty quick or the 1100 cc version of the 2CV lomax type of cars. I can find these about at £1500 odd and both are driveable cars. With a bit of spoodling to the spring rates and front suspension I think quite respectable performances could be achieved. Good luck with the search.

Certainly worth reading the telegraph caveats on those cars tested some of which lifting front wheels at quite low speed which to my mind is not clever in cars offered for test. Decent Suspension geometry ought to be able to minimise that tendency pretty easily. But would you offer cars for testing when such weaknesses arecapparent? I would not.

[muso56]

Thanks, Steffan, I'd seen that article in the Telegraph; toyed with the idea of the Mev Eco Exo and also the Grinnall Scorpion, but fancy the trad V-twin at the front. Somehow, the twin boxer of the 2CV DOESN' do it for me

[Steffan]

muso56 said:

Thanks, Steffan, I'd seen that article in the Telegraph; toyed with the idea of the Mev Eco Exo and also the Grinnall Scorpion, but fancy the trad V-twin at the front. Somehow, the twin boxer of the 2CV DOESN' do it for me

I can well understand the love of big V twin engines upfront approach. One of my first three wheeler experiences as a fortunate youth with a charmed childhood of a paternalistic ecclesistical family in the 1950's was in a V twin Morgan which really was a handful. Trying to start the car after purchsse with a friend of mine towing it with P4 Auntie Rover 75 the gravity tank was leaking and as the engine fired then backfire the front end burnt into flames. There was no floor in the car because we had removed it to replace the clutch and sort the gearbox out and not put the floor back like idiots too keen to drive the car!

I yanked on the handbrake kept out of the hot seat, which it rapidly became, rolled over in the road and beat the false to with the towing driver who was more frightened that me when the Morgan brewed up. Fortuitously the damage was slight singing rather than a conflagration and we sorted the Magneto out easily enough which was the cause of the non starting and backfiring because it was sparking on the inlet stroke. I did love that car and a V twin does epitomise the glories of real power in a very light car and always attracts appreciation. Having said that I have owned several Citroen three wheelers all more or less lomax based and the higher power 1,000 engine is avery capable base for a three wheeler which can certainly hold its own on the road.

[Stuart Mills]

short video here of the electric trike being tested with all the components described if you fancy building one. No kits are planned for sale though but there is a book available on the link below with details of how to build an EV.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/HOW-DESIGN-BUILD-ELECTRIC-...

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Xh2t...

Edited by Stuart Mills on Wednesday 25th June 18:13

[fuoriserie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgGFOXUjE4

The new Bajaj U Car Concept