Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!
Discussion
With reference to costings...those haven't been done as this is just a fun sketch with no intention to develop further as I don't really think there is a niche just yet for this type of design.
But I'm also sure that some of the chassis guys in the forum, would have a figure on the cost of a GRP monocoque chassis with sub-frames and would like to share the info with us ?
I still think that Retro inspired designs have an edge with threewheeler enthusiasts, the Grinnal Scorpion would be the exeption to this....
If I were to consider a new design with a V-Twin engine at the front as the sketch, it would have to be more Retro and have a similar price for the kit,just like the Razor, in the region of 4.500- 5.000 Pounds at the most:
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
Maybe you could save , by going back to using motorcycle wheels as of the donor and a few other things...like smaller capacity engines, a small Block Guzzi, 500 to 750cc engine or something similar.
I would even consider the use of other V-twin engines, with longitudinal layout...something like the Yamaha Virago or Honda Shadow, Suzuki Intruder, Kawasaki Vulcan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Virago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Intruder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Vulcan#1990...
Or even go lower and use smaller capacity 300-400-500cc engines, single cylinder like those of an Indian Built Royal Enfield Bullet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet
Here is the link to their modern website:
http://royalenfield.com/motorcycles/bullet-500
We could come up with endless options, but my main concern, would still be, "How many would sell in the curent economy " and future ?....I'm not sure I have a ready answer at the moment.
As we all know, Threewheelers are a real niche into a niche and as you say, costs are the real catch, and if they don't add up, you have another failed project in your hands. So many have failed and very few are still manufacturing them....
I have many more sketches to show just for the sake of a fun discussion between enthusiasts and will check in my drawers some more sketches...
Get in touch when you're in Italy and we will meet.
Cheers
Italo
But I'm also sure that some of the chassis guys in the forum, would have a figure on the cost of a GRP monocoque chassis with sub-frames and would like to share the info with us ?
I still think that Retro inspired designs have an edge with threewheeler enthusiasts, the Grinnal Scorpion would be the exeption to this....
If I were to consider a new design with a V-Twin engine at the front as the sketch, it would have to be more Retro and have a similar price for the kit,just like the Razor, in the region of 4.500- 5.000 Pounds at the most:
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
Maybe you could save , by going back to using motorcycle wheels as of the donor and a few other things...like smaller capacity engines, a small Block Guzzi, 500 to 750cc engine or something similar.
I would even consider the use of other V-twin engines, with longitudinal layout...something like the Yamaha Virago or Honda Shadow, Suzuki Intruder, Kawasaki Vulcan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Virago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Intruder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Vulcan#1990...
Or even go lower and use smaller capacity 300-400-500cc engines, single cylinder like those of an Indian Built Royal Enfield Bullet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet
Here is the link to their modern website:
http://royalenfield.com/motorcycles/bullet-500
We could come up with endless options, but my main concern, would still be, "How many would sell in the curent economy " and future ?....I'm not sure I have a ready answer at the moment.
As we all know, Threewheelers are a real niche into a niche and as you say, costs are the real catch, and if they don't add up, you have another failed project in your hands. So many have failed and very few are still manufacturing them....
I have many more sketches to show just for the sake of a fun discussion between enthusiasts and will check in my drawers some more sketches...
Get in touch when you're in Italy and we will meet.
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 9th September 10:21
fuoriserie said:
With reference to costings...those haven't been done as this is just a fun sketch with no intention to develop further as I don't really think there is a niche just yet for this type of design.
But I'm also sure that some of the chassis guys in the forum, would have a figure on the cost of a GRP monocoque chassis with sub-frames and would like to share the info with us ?
I still think that Retro inspired designs have an edge with threewheeler enthusiasts, the Grinnal Scorpion would be the exeption to this....
If I were to consider a new design with a V-Twin engine at the front as the sketch, it would have to be more Retro and have a similar price for the kit,just like the Razor, in the region of 4.500- 5.000 Pounds at the most:
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
Maybe you could save , by going back to using motorcycle wheels as of the donor and a few other things...like smaller capacity engines, a small Block Guzzi, 500 to 750cc engine or something similar.
I would even consider the use of other V-twin engines, with longitudinal layout...something like the Yamaha Virago or Honda Shadow, Suzuki Intruder, Kawasaki Vulcan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Virago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Intruder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Vulcan#1990...
Or even go lower and use smaller capacity 300-400-500cc engines, single cylinder like those of an Indian Built Royal Enfield Bullet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet
Here is the link to their modern website:
http://royalenfield.com/motorcycles/bullet-500
We could come up with endless options, but my main concern, would still be, "How many would sell in the curent economy " and future ?....I'm not sure I have a ready answer at the moment.
As we all know, Threewheelers are a real niche into a niche and as you say, costs are the real catch, and if they don't add up, you have another failed project in your hands. So many have failed and very few are still manufacturing them....
I have many more sketches to show just for the sake of a fun discussion between enthusiasts and will check in my drawers some more sketches...
Get in touch when you're in Italy and we will meet.
Cheers
Italo
All very stimulating and informative. You could be a designer, Italo! But I'm also sure that some of the chassis guys in the forum, would have a figure on the cost of a GRP monocoque chassis with sub-frames and would like to share the info with us ?
I still think that Retro inspired designs have an edge with threewheeler enthusiasts, the Grinnal Scorpion would be the exeption to this....
If I were to consider a new design with a V-Twin engine at the front as the sketch, it would have to be more Retro and have a similar price for the kit,just like the Razor, in the region of 4.500- 5.000 Pounds at the most:
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
Maybe you could save , by going back to using motorcycle wheels as of the donor and a few other things...like smaller capacity engines, a small Block Guzzi, 500 to 750cc engine or something similar.
I would even consider the use of other V-twin engines, with longitudinal layout...something like the Yamaha Virago or Honda Shadow, Suzuki Intruder, Kawasaki Vulcan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Virago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Intruder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Vulcan#1990...
Or even go lower and use smaller capacity 300-400-500cc engines, single cylinder like those of an Indian Built Royal Enfield Bullet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet
Here is the link to their modern website:
http://royalenfield.com/motorcycles/bullet-500
We could come up with endless options, but my main concern, would still be, "How many would sell in the curent economy " and future ?....I'm not sure I have a ready answer at the moment.
As we all know, Threewheelers are a real niche into a niche and as you say, costs are the real catch, and if they don't add up, you have another failed project in your hands. So many have failed and very few are still manufacturing them....
I have many more sketches to show just for the sake of a fun discussion between enthusiasts and will check in my drawers some more sketches...
Get in touch when you're in Italy and we will meet.
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 9th September 10:21
I will certainly contact you as soon as I arrive in Italy, late September 2015. The Razor is certainly worth a look and I have spent some time examining the car at various kit car shows. It is a very well presented product and it does deserve to succeed.
As an aside I used to ride a Royal Enfield 350 Bullet many years ago when I was in school before passing my car test in 1963 which was long, long ago. Later in life I actually spent some time at Royal Enfield in Redditch when they were well past their heyday and looking to sell the business on. Which is how the bikes became an Indian product. Gave me a chance to view the production and output of RE at the time.
The advantages of being able to use a complete(ish) bike engine/transmission set up are very apparent and a wide single rear wheel should be adequate on the Road. The Twin wheel set up might be better but marginally so I rather, suspect. On that basis the car would be mid engined which is another advantage.
I dislike designs where the engine hangs outside the central area in the car and paticularly hangs out of the back like a dumbell waiting to catch the unwary. One of the reasons that I have never been a fan of the 911 cars although I have owned a few over the years. Mid engined layouts strike me as massively batter mannered on the road, and therefore much more forgiving in real life.
Keep at it Italo we can never have too many good kit car designs encouraging kit car building!
Steffan said:
fuoriserie said:
With reference to costings...those haven't been done as this is just a fun sketch with no intention to develop further as I don't really think there is a niche just yet for this type of design.
But I'm also sure that some of the chassis guys in the forum, would have a figure on the cost of a GRP monocoque chassis with sub-frames and would like to share the info with us ?
I still think that Retro inspired designs have an edge with threewheeler enthusiasts, the Grinnal Scorpion would be the exeption to this....
If I were to consider a new design with a V-Twin engine at the front as the sketch, it would have to be more Retro and have a similar price for the kit,just like the Razor, in the region of 4.500- 5.000 Pounds at the most:
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
Maybe you could save , by going back to using motorcycle wheels as of the donor and a few other things...like smaller capacity engines, a small Block Guzzi, 500 to 750cc engine or something similar.
I would even consider the use of other V-twin engines, with longitudinal layout...something like the Yamaha Virago or Honda Shadow, Suzuki Intruder, Kawasaki Vulcan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Virago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Intruder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Vulcan#1990...
Or even go lower and use smaller capacity 300-400-500cc engines, single cylinder like those of an Indian Built Royal Enfield Bullet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet
Here is the link to their modern website:
http://royalenfield.com/motorcycles/bullet-500
We could come up with endless options, but my main concern, would still be, "How many would sell in the curent economy " and future ?....I'm not sure I have a ready answer at the moment.
As we all know, Threewheelers are a real niche into a niche and as you say, costs are the real catch, and if they don't add up, you have another failed project in your hands. So many have failed and very few are still manufacturing them....
I have many more sketches to show just for the sake of a fun discussion between enthusiasts and will check in my drawers some more sketches...
Get in touch when you're in Italy and we will meet.
Cheers
Italo
All very stimulating and informative. You could be a designer, Italo! But I'm also sure that some of the chassis guys in the forum, would have a figure on the cost of a GRP monocoque chassis with sub-frames and would like to share the info with us ?
I still think that Retro inspired designs have an edge with threewheeler enthusiasts, the Grinnal Scorpion would be the exeption to this....
If I were to consider a new design with a V-Twin engine at the front as the sketch, it would have to be more Retro and have a similar price for the kit,just like the Razor, in the region of 4.500- 5.000 Pounds at the most:
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
Maybe you could save , by going back to using motorcycle wheels as of the donor and a few other things...like smaller capacity engines, a small Block Guzzi, 500 to 750cc engine or something similar.
I would even consider the use of other V-twin engines, with longitudinal layout...something like the Yamaha Virago or Honda Shadow, Suzuki Intruder, Kawasaki Vulcan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Virago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Shadow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Intruder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Vulcan#1990...
Or even go lower and use smaller capacity 300-400-500cc engines, single cylinder like those of an Indian Built Royal Enfield Bullet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_Bullet
Here is the link to their modern website:
http://royalenfield.com/motorcycles/bullet-500
We could come up with endless options, but my main concern, would still be, "How many would sell in the curent economy " and future ?....I'm not sure I have a ready answer at the moment.
As we all know, Threewheelers are a real niche into a niche and as you say, costs are the real catch, and if they don't add up, you have another failed project in your hands. So many have failed and very few are still manufacturing them....
I have many more sketches to show just for the sake of a fun discussion between enthusiasts and will check in my drawers some more sketches...
Get in touch when you're in Italy and we will meet.
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 9th September 10:21
I will certainly contact you as soon as I arrive in Italy, late September 2015. The Razor is certainly worth a look and I have spent some time examining the car at various kit car shows. It is a very well presented product and it does deserve to succeed.
As an aside I used to ride a Royal Enfield 350 Bullet many years ago when I was in school before passing my car test in 1963 which was long, long ago. Later in life I actually spent some time at Royal Enfield in Redditch when they were well past their heyday and looking to sell the business on. Which is how the bikes became an Indian product. Gave me a chance to view the production and output of RE at the time.
The advantages of being able to use a complete(ish) bike engine/transmission set up are very apparent and a wide single rear wheel should be adequate on the Road. The Twin wheel set up might be better but marginally so I rather, suspect. On that basis the car would be mid engined which is another advantage.
I dislike designs where the engine hangs outside the central area in the car and paticularly hangs out of the back like a dumbell waiting to catch the unwary. One of the reasons that I have never been a fan of the 911 cars although I have owned a few over the years. Mid engined layouts strike me as massively batter mannered on the road, and therefore much more forgiving in real life.
Keep at it Italo we can never have too many good kit car designs encouraging kit car building!
, checkk their website:http://www.musketvtwin.com/
Check their videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYzuqAX2A3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTKfvb6p6Lw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V09JtVae4ss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Y2BuZ9TBc
Looking forward to hearing from you in Italy.
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 12th September 21:27
A new Threewheeler from the UK :
http://www.2rike.com/
https://www.facebook.com/2rike-672914519493794/tim...
http://www.2rike.com/
https://www.facebook.com/2rike-672914519493794/tim...
An electric threewheeler from Australia:
https://theroade.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/hello-wo...
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo0-QnFpfCs&li...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zaho8fepnI&li...
https://theroade.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/hello-wo...
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo0-QnFpfCs&li...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zaho8fepnI&li...
Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 14th September 17:19
Went to see this the other day - up there with the best IMHO!
You can find out more on the Pembleton site - it's called the Jaqpot
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C653545
You can find out more on the Pembleton site - it's called the Jaqpot
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C653545
Mistrale said:
Went to see this the other day - up there with the best IMHO!
You can find out more on the Pembleton site - it's called the Jaqpot
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C653545
I agree with you and thanks for the info...You can find out more on the Pembleton site - it's called the Jaqpot
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C653545
It is indeed a cool looking design and have found more info on the Pembleton site as you mentioned:
http://www.thepembleton.org.uk/ePAG/ePAG54/colin.s...
For those interested on electric threewheelers, you can now check the KTM E3W brochure with a provisional price to the public of 11.500 Euro.
http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1127/234_han...
http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1127/234_han...
fuoriserie said:
For those interested on electric threewheelers, you can now check the KTM E3W brochure with a provisional price to the public of 11.500 Euro.
http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1127/234_han...
I rather like that. Can we fit an R1 engine?http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1127/234_han...
My current ruminations include buying something like this http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/motorsport/... and trying to make a road legal, single seat, three wheeled commuting weapon...
Thoughts are currently revolving around an R1 engine mounted on a frame designed to bolt onto the existing tub mounts, and also supporting some slim bodywork (including small rucksack compartment), fuel and air systems and rear swingarm. MX5 front uprights and tubular wishbones to give a front end that acts pretty much identically to the MX5.
What do we reckon a ballpark total cost would be using this approach? Under £10k I reckon would be relatively easy, under £7.5k quite a bit harder? Bearing in mind almost zero design and fabrication skills!
Thoughts are currently revolving around an R1 engine mounted on a frame designed to bolt onto the existing tub mounts, and also supporting some slim bodywork (including small rucksack compartment), fuel and air systems and rear swingarm. MX5 front uprights and tubular wishbones to give a front end that acts pretty much identically to the MX5.
What do we reckon a ballpark total cost would be using this approach? Under £10k I reckon would be relatively easy, under £7.5k quite a bit harder? Bearing in mind almost zero design and fabrication skills!
Sway said:
My current ruminations include buying something like this http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/motorsport/... and trying to make a road legal, single seat, three wheeled commuting weapon...
Thoughts are currently revolving around an R1 engine mounted on a frame designed to bolt onto the existing tub mounts, and also supporting some slim bodywork (including small rucksack compartment), fuel and air systems and rear swingarm. MX5 front uprights and tubular wishbones to give a front end that acts pretty much identically to the MX5.
What do we reckon a ballpark total cost would be using this approach? Under £10k I reckon would be relatively easy, under £7.5k quite a bit harder? Bearing in mind almost zero design and fabrication skills!
Interesting project and looking forward to seeing it come to life in the future.Thoughts are currently revolving around an R1 engine mounted on a frame designed to bolt onto the existing tub mounts, and also supporting some slim bodywork (including small rucksack compartment), fuel and air systems and rear swingarm. MX5 front uprights and tubular wishbones to give a front end that acts pretty much identically to the MX5.
What do we reckon a ballpark total cost would be using this approach? Under £10k I reckon would be relatively easy, under £7.5k quite a bit harder? Bearing in mind almost zero design and fabrication skills!
I'm not sure about costs, but like you mentioned, 10.000 would be on the safe side but maybe even less, it all depends on how much work you put in yourself and if the components are new or used.
Would you create the bodywork or have a proffessional do it for you ? you should look around and get quotes from professionals and make a list of things you can do yourself and that that would have to be farmed out outside your skills.
I'm sure it's doable and starting from an exhisting chassis makes things a lot easier...
http://www.paleclassics.co.uk/mather-pantoufle.htm...
This is unique in design and with a mini engine donor....
This is unique in design and with a mini engine donor....
Sway said:
My current ruminations include buying something like this http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/motorsport/... and trying to make a road legal, single seat, three wheeled commuting weapon...
Thoughts are currently revolving around an R1 engine mounted on a frame designed to bolt onto the existing tub mounts, and also supporting some slim bodywork (including small rucksack compartment), fuel and air systems and rear swingarm. MX5 front uprights and tubular wishbones to give a front end that acts pretty much identically to the MX5.
What do we reckon a ballpark total cost would be using this approach? Under £10k I reckon would be relatively easy, under £7.5k quite a bit harder? Bearing in mind almost zero design and fabrication skills!
What a lovely thing. Shame I have a project at the moment. Why a trike you could also go 4 wheels. Thoughts are currently revolving around an R1 engine mounted on a frame designed to bolt onto the existing tub mounts, and also supporting some slim bodywork (including small rucksack compartment), fuel and air systems and rear swingarm. MX5 front uprights and tubular wishbones to give a front end that acts pretty much identically to the MX5.
What do we reckon a ballpark total cost would be using this approach? Under £10k I reckon would be relatively easy, under £7.5k quite a bit harder? Bearing in mind almost zero design and fabrication skills!
fuoriserie said:
I just dont know if I agree that EV'ing a morgan sits well with me! The morgan 3 wheeler needs to have V twin up front! I do want one but not a EV version!R
The health advantages of the secure largely traffic free walled city are exceptional and I am walking around the walls twice day. Very good cardiovascular routine, hopefully!
There is undoubtedly a market in the UK for an affordable three wheeler kit car based upon a motorcycle power unit and drive train driving one wheel at the back, I still believe. Exceptional performance fun and reliable motoring should e possible given the outputs f the multi cylinder modern m/c units about. Whether one will ever be offered remains to be seen but currently I still maintain, that no one has, as yet, bettered the efforts of Lawrie Bond with the 750 Royal Enfield powered, Berkeley? All the way back to the late 1950's.
I will be returning to the UK occasionally and I will motor over to Malvern and I will look at their offerings again. Only just down the road from our UK home. But the regrettably, the UK just does not seem to be the hotbed of three wheeler development it once was.
I do very much appreciate the considerable efforts you are making personally to bring about new and exciting kit cars. Sadly at the moment the economic circumstances and increasing bureaucracy in the UK seem to militate against such efforts. Best of luck to you! Do please give me a shout when you are about Tuscany! I would really enjoy meeting you.
fuoriserie said:
Morning Fuoriserie, very interesting it is too! My personal kit car building which I have enjoyed for over 50 years has largely been shelved currently because I have moved full time to Lucca in Italy and will be hereabouts until 2018 unless something major happens which at my time of life is always a possibility!The health advantages of the secure largely traffic free walled city are exceptional and I am walking around the walls twice day. Very good cardiovascular routine, hopefully!
There is undoubtedly a market in the UK for an affordable three wheeler kit car based upon a motorcycle power unit and drive train driving one wheel at the back, I still believe. Exceptional performance fun and reliable motoring should e possible given the outputs f the multi cylinder modern m/c units about. Whether one will ever be offered remains to be seen but currently I still maintain, that no one has, as yet, bettered the efforts of Lawrie Bond with the 750 Royal Enfield powered, Berkeley? All the way back to the late 1950's.
I will be returning to the UK occasionally and I will motor over to Malvern and I will look at their offerings again. Only just down the road from our UK home. But the regrettably, the UK just does not seem to be the hotbed of three wheeler development it once was.
I do very much appreciate the considerable efforts you are making personally to bring about new and exciting kit cars. Sadly at the moment the economic circumstances and increasing bureaucracy in the UK seem to militate against such efforts. Best of luck to you! Do please give me a shout when you are about Tuscany! I would really enjoy meeting you.
ceebmoj said:
What a lovely thing. Shame I have a project at the moment. Why a trike you could also go 4 wheels.
I too have a project on the go, so it's a non starter for a few years at least. The current project is currently acceptable to my better half, although I'm working on resolving that as the end result would be far too boring!Regarding trike over four wheels - for me it comes down to a few things:
- Relative ease of legality - msva vs Iva. May be wrong, but it seems considerably easier to pass the former without resorting to daft tactics.
- Difference. There are a few singer seater four wheelers. Invariably they are either at the bats
t mental end of the spectrum, or wannabe F1 cars with dubious zero. Whilst I adore the LCC Rocket with it's '50s F1 vibe, I'd prefer my own project to draw on less obvious influences.
- Cost. I'm not engineer. Designing and making both ends at least doubles the cost and time - in fact likely more due to the interaction of the two suspension systems. This is largely removed from trike design - proper working systems for the rear are easily and cheaply available. Packaging is much more straightforward. Interactions between front and rear axles are I understand pretty much irrelevant in trike design.
- Hard to name this, but perhaps the most important aspect, capability, or rather a fairly controlled lack of. I can't admire cars that are shockingly capable of fast laps of a racetrack, but are, by their very capability anodyne and boring in normal use on the road. Indeed I'm selling my GTM Libra and have bought a mk2 MX5 for that reason. The GTM is too serious and capable to have any real fun on the commute (which is currently 50 miles each way over the South Downs - great driving roads, but mostly well flowing traffic). The last thing you want is any slip or slide. It's pretty non plussed at 'fast road' pace, but really comes into it's own at 70+. The MX5 in comparison is straightforward to adopt a four wheel slide into and through a corner - not drifting or being antisocial, in fact I'm sure no one else even notices. But I do, and I appreciate it! My current plan of a 3l Jag V6 transplant may shift that balance, but all current indications are that it'll be enhanced, not reduced...
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